:00:05. > :00:13.and a boy died. That is the headlines. Now it is
:00:13. > :00:19.time for HARDtalk. Jordan has survived the Arab Spring
:00:19. > :00:24.are relatively unscathed. At least, so far. Perhaps it is because the
:00:24. > :00:28.king has promised reforms. He is now on his fourth prime minister
:00:28. > :00:33.since the last year and the changes proposed so far will not do enough
:00:33. > :00:40.to satisfy critics. They say King Abdullah is buying time, not
:00:40. > :00:47.serious about reform. This in a country that is seen as critical to
:00:47. > :00:57.peace in the region. My guess to today is a NASA Judeh, Jordan's
:00:57. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:28.Welcome to HARDtalk. Four prime ministers since the start of last
:01:28. > :01:33.year would suggest that Jordan is having a problem with its reforms.
:01:33. > :01:37.Can it changed enough to satisfy its people and to avoid the
:01:37. > :01:42.uprising that many of your neighbours have seen? I would start
:01:42. > :01:48.by saying the problem may be in the pace of reform rather than reform.
:01:48. > :01:56.You have seen change, the changes of government so frequently in the
:01:56. > :02:06.last 12-14 months simply because we have reform from the top, the King
:02:06. > :02:07.
:02:07. > :02:11.who has set the ultimate goal of reforming. We have Parliamentary
:02:11. > :02:16.government, we are waiting on the legislation through the parliament.
:02:16. > :02:20.It is a problem of the pace of reform. At the end of the day, it
:02:20. > :02:26.is not about the number of governments, the number of prime
:02:26. > :02:32.ministers, it is about the reform being on track. He has been intent
:02:32. > :02:39.on having elections before the end of the year... The last government
:02:39. > :02:44.left office because the king promised... We will get into that.
:02:44. > :02:50.He was the first to resign before he was pushed. That is part of the
:02:50. > :02:54.argument. He is forcing the pace of elections intent on change but it
:02:54. > :02:58.is still the case that there will be elections to a parliament and
:02:58. > :03:08.then the king will decide who the prime minister is, who runs the
:03:08. > :03:12.government. Not quite. One has to understand the Jordanian political
:03:12. > :03:17.system. The king has the constitutional power to appoint a
:03:17. > :03:26.prime minister. This Prime Minister has to present to the lower house
:03:26. > :03:31.of parliament his political programme. That is the system.
:03:31. > :03:35.Democratic systems around the world, people, would want to choose their
:03:35. > :03:40.own government. Under the proposed reforms it is still the case that
:03:40. > :03:47.the King is choosing the prime minister. Different countries have
:03:47. > :03:50.different systems but we are not in disagreement. At the end of this
:03:50. > :03:54.process that be king has set up, you would have political parties
:03:54. > :03:59.elected to Parliament and the King will have to choose the prime
:03:59. > :04:05.minister based on the majority in parliament... When will that be?
:04:05. > :04:11.soon as we have elections. By the end of this year the King will
:04:11. > :04:16.choose the prime minister from the majority? We do not have political
:04:16. > :04:21.parties as yet. And as you know, the detail of the law means there
:04:22. > :04:29.is a limit on the size of parties. Only a certain number of seats have
:04:29. > :04:37.been given over to party lists. Absolutely incorrect. Only a given
:04:37. > :04:43.number of seats was given, 15 as things stand. The parliament is 130
:04:43. > :04:50.plus members that can all belong to political parties. To ensure that
:04:50. > :04:56.there is a broad spectrum, a list was set aside, a quota. The Islamic
:04:56. > :05:03.Action Front, the political front for the Muslim Brotherhood, saw
:05:03. > :05:08.that directed at them. Was it? me give you three examples. In 1989
:05:08. > :05:18.we had a one person multiple vote system that enjoyed a majority for
:05:18. > :05:28.
:05:28. > :05:35.the Muslim Brotherhood. That moved in 199321 person, one vote system.
:05:35. > :05:41.-- 1993 to a one person. They are unlikely to stand because they are
:05:41. > :05:45.not happy. I am assuming they will be allowed to stand. Not only that,
:05:45. > :05:52.they are encouraged to stand. I am sure you would agree with me that
:05:52. > :05:57.you cannot have a political, you cannot have electoral law that
:05:57. > :06:01.services one particular party at the expense of everybody else.
:06:01. > :06:11.mentioned why the last prime minister had resigned. His decision
:06:11. > :06:16.
:06:16. > :06:21.to resign was based, and this is a man who spent ten years at The
:06:21. > :06:25.Hague as a judge, he stood down because of a decision that the king
:06:25. > :06:30.was effectively overruling him when he was out of the country. The
:06:30. > :06:34.belief was, the feeling from his side was that despite all the talk
:06:34. > :06:38.from the King, that the prime minister is running the country,
:06:38. > :06:42.actually nothing had changed. It is the king who makes the decisions
:06:42. > :06:52.and was taking them on while the prime minister was out of the
:06:52. > :06:53.
:06:53. > :06:58.country. The former prime minister is indeed a respected judge and was
:06:58. > :07:01.at the international court for over a decade. The King sent
:07:01. > :07:09.recommendations, Letters to heads of state and government to lobby
:07:09. > :07:14.for his election. He is respected and came against that backdrop. He
:07:15. > :07:18.came in October 2011 when the King, treaties initiative and through
:07:18. > :07:27.working with Parliament and the government, managed to pass the
:07:27. > :07:31.constitutional and then -- amendments. The king brought him,
:07:31. > :07:36.as the prime minister, to lead us into the next phase of
:07:36. > :07:43.implementation and reforms. There was disagreement over the pace. I
:07:43. > :07:48.disagree with you, actually, on the reason why he left. He did indeed
:07:48. > :07:52.resign, over the fact that the king wanted an ordinary session of
:07:52. > :08:02.Parliament to be extended in order to finish the law. The prime
:08:02. > :08:02.
:08:02. > :08:08.minister said no, we need six weeks off with 12 laws... That is, as I
:08:08. > :08:12.understand it as well but the king called in his deputy and said
:08:12. > :08:22."Signed it to extend the parliamentary term or you ago
:08:22. > :08:27.
:08:27. > :08:32.against your boss." -- signed it or you go. It was the chief of the
:08:32. > :08:36.Royal Court to give that, passing on messages, as in any system of
:08:37. > :08:44.government. It cannot have the head of state getting into the daily
:08:44. > :08:50.details. In Jordan, even when the king might want change, he is
:08:50. > :08:53.frustrated by those around him. Was it the King's decision? It was the
:08:53. > :08:57.king's wish according to his constitutional powers that the
:08:57. > :09:03.parliament be extended so they can continue with political reforms.
:09:03. > :09:07.The trouble with the argument, and picking said afterwards he was not
:09:07. > :09:11.performing things fast enough, the trouble is that if he thinks the
:09:11. > :09:21.Prime Minister was not a fast enough for former look who he has
:09:21. > :09:21.
:09:21. > :09:31.replaced him with. -- fast enough reformer. He is an ultra-
:09:31. > :09:36.conservative bureaucrat. Everybody in and -- to him at Jordan says
:09:36. > :09:45.this is not a man who can reform. Did you actually hear from all
:09:45. > :09:53.Jordanians who said that? There is a lot of good feeling about him.
:09:53. > :09:59.And who came before him. Two days after his appointment he sent
:09:59. > :10:03.through recommendations for the Independent Election Commission.
:10:03. > :10:13.This is one big test for the first 48 hours in government. I will
:10:13. > :10:15.
:10:15. > :10:25.quote for you "It does not send a reassuring message about reform."
:10:25. > :10:25.
:10:25. > :10:29.Others say... I do believe him reform... You became the Foreign
:10:29. > :10:37.Minister in 2009 but were a minister on and off through the
:10:37. > :10:42.1990s. You were quite recently married to a cousin of the King and
:10:42. > :10:48.so I wonder, having been such a close observer of the political
:10:48. > :10:58.scene in Jordan, when you think the slow pace of reform is coming from.
:10:58. > :11:00.
:11:00. > :11:09.When beating Gotti in on the death of his father -- a win at the King
:11:09. > :11:15.got in following the death of his father he promised reform. That we
:11:15. > :11:21.talk about something extremely important. The king is the
:11:21. > :11:26.beneficiary of reform. It does not stand to reason that the king is
:11:26. > :11:36.changing government so he can slow reform, so he can buy time. He is
:11:36. > :11:39.
:11:39. > :11:45.not only leading for reform, he wants to see it through. He was
:11:45. > :11:50.asked if he could give up some of his powers in five years and he
:11:50. > :11:56.said absolutely not. He is comfortable in his skin. If you
:11:56. > :12:03.look at the last 12 months in Jordan, the Arab Spring that has
:12:03. > :12:08.come across Jordan as opposed to the turbulent events we have seen
:12:08. > :12:15.in other countries, it is due to be king. We must have done something
:12:15. > :12:20.right... Freedom of expression is guaranteed in Jordan. Is it right
:12:20. > :12:26.that a journalist should be locked up for reporting what he had been
:12:26. > :12:35.told, that the King told MPs not to indict a former minister. I know
:12:35. > :12:40.the case, not the details. At the same time you get an over-zealous
:12:40. > :12:47.prosecutor who locks somebody up. If somebody reports something that
:12:47. > :12:53.is an inaccurate, based on a piece of here say, they are accountable.
:12:53. > :12:59.They should be locked up? No, no, I am making it clear that they should
:12:59. > :13:04.not be. He has been locked up despite protests. There are
:13:04. > :13:10.countries in the world where people are locked up because of sedition,
:13:10. > :13:17.even in democratic countries. I am not saying that the system is
:13:17. > :13:20.perfect. It is doing something right. Can you justify how a
:13:20. > :13:24.journalist who reports something on a website, is the editor of a
:13:24. > :13:34.particular website, he is in prison at the moment because of something
:13:34. > :13:38.
:13:38. > :13:46.he reported, that he was told by an MP. The information has to be
:13:46. > :13:52.accurate, it doesn't matter who it was told by. I do not know the
:13:52. > :13:57.details... That is not free speech. No, that means you have to respect
:13:57. > :14:03.the integrity of others and make sure what the publisher is accurate.
:14:03. > :14:08.In Jordan we may have our flaws in the system, and you know that, but
:14:09. > :14:14.we are the first to admit our mistakes? And did you admit that?
:14:14. > :14:21.We have to look at the information. The King talked about closing
:14:21. > :14:31.corruption Fars but this is not true. The police, not only do we
:14:31. > :14:36.
:14:36. > :14:41.guarantee freedom of expression but The King has said, what is it this
:14:41. > :14:51.case and why has it happened? But you can rehearse his constitutional
:14:51. > :14:53.
:14:53. > :14:58.Your Foreign Minister in a country with his prep - what with his own
:14:58. > :15:06.problems. Your neighbouring countries also have problems. Do
:15:06. > :15:12.you think civil war can be avoided in Syria? It was a chilling moment
:15:12. > :15:22.to Hugh Kofi Annan speaking, briefing the Security Council. The
:15:22. > :15:26.
:15:26. > :15:32.failure of his plan might be the It is complicated, considering the
:15:32. > :15:40.ethnic mosaic. The Christians, the Alawites, the SANA majority. A host
:15:40. > :15:45.of minorities can represent a majority. It is our only hope at
:15:45. > :15:52.this time to see Kofi Annan's and succeed. We are concentrating on
:15:52. > :16:00.one of the aspects of the plan. That is to end the violence. On the
:16:00. > :16:07.16th of this lot, there will be a beginning of a dialogue between the
:16:07. > :16:11.opposition and members of the Arab League. They have to be a solution.
:16:11. > :16:20.But the King was one of the first to say that President Assad has to
:16:20. > :16:25.go up. The king did say that. He said it was not a question of, yes,
:16:25. > :16:31.if I were whom I would step down. The system has to change. It is not
:16:31. > :16:41.about changing faces. As President Assad have to go? It is up to
:16:41. > :16:43.
:16:43. > :16:48.Syrians. It is not like the situation we have faced in the past.
:16:48. > :16:54.We have towns on the Syrian and Jordanian border that are committed
:16:54. > :17:00.to us with each other. We have social connections and families.
:17:00. > :17:04.Many of our imports come from there. We have interest in this ability of
:17:04. > :17:09.Syria. That is why we say the military option is not one we want.
:17:09. > :17:16.We want a political solution that ensures a sleuth transition.
:17:16. > :17:24.the transition from President Assad... It is up to the Syrian
:17:24. > :17:31.regime took come to terms with his people. Thousands of Syrians of the
:17:31. > :17:39.union to Jordan. Jordan has a history of taking refugees. This
:17:39. > :17:49.includes Palestinians and Iraqis. How stable is it for Jordan?
:17:49. > :17:49.
:17:49. > :17:55.very. One tends to see that people associate events taking place in
:17:55. > :18:01.Jordan with the stability or instability of Jordan.
:18:01. > :18:06.Demonstrations are a source of strength. Opposition is not a
:18:06. > :18:14.threat to Jordan's stability. Rather his change in government, or
:18:14. > :18:19.the Arab spring. In the 50s and 60s. Rack my question is about your
:18:19. > :18:28.ability to absorb the thousands of people. And your readiness for it.
:18:28. > :18:33.We are ready. We have over 110 Syrians endured of today. This is a
:18:33. > :18:38.number that people are not aware. This includes people who have
:18:38. > :18:42.Syrian passports. Broome mac. This is people who have come to Jordan
:18:42. > :18:50.since the beginning. People have crossed the phones illegally when
:18:50. > :18:59.they were shot at, seeking refuge, and seeking medical care. People
:18:59. > :19:04.would come in their cars and flee from Syria. They are refugees
:19:04. > :19:09.because of the situation there. They moved them to Jordan. They
:19:09. > :19:15.want to different cities and towns. I am in discussions with different
:19:15. > :19:22.or international organisations to help them. Jordan has been a haven.
:19:22. > :19:30.We have many Iraqis and Palestinian refugees. We are going to
:19:30. > :19:39.accommodate our Palestinian brothers. What about Abu catarrh
:19:39. > :19:46.Dockers -- Abu Qatada? He claims he would be tortured if he goes back
:19:46. > :19:53.to Jordan. He claims he will be tortured. Will you be able to prove
:19:53. > :20:03.to the world that he will not be treat -- mistreated. He was tried
:20:03. > :20:14.
:20:14. > :20:23.We have to live up to it a lot own The Jordanian constitution bans for
:20:23. > :20:33.shock and order to gain evidence. - - torture. We will see if he gets a
:20:33. > :20:33.
:20:33. > :20:43.fair trial if he goes to Jordan. We will pass with flying colours.
:20:43. > :20:46.
:20:46. > :20:52.Except... It is not just that case. There is great concern of torture.
:20:52. > :20:55.There is a recent constitutional prohibition. They say it makes
:20:55. > :21:01.little difference to practise on the ground because of cases that
:21:01. > :21:11.have come again and again. There is no systematic torture in Jordan. It
:21:11. > :21:11.
:21:11. > :21:20.is illegal. I deal with human- rights organisations or at the time.
:21:20. > :21:28.We have opened up prisms. I say, choose any prism you want. In cases
:21:28. > :21:32.of mistreatment... 31st March, there were demonstrators arrested.
:21:32. > :21:38.Six of them gave evidence to Human Rights Watch. They said they
:21:38. > :21:46.received barbaric beating is in custody. One described how police
:21:46. > :21:53.took name tags off their bags and beat them at will be plucked out.
:21:53. > :22:03.have not seen this. This was a demonstration of where the
:22:03. > :22:06.
:22:07. > :22:16.demonstrators attacked the police. Does that make it justifiable?
:22:16. > :22:20.does not -- I think he would be upset. This is what happened to
:22:20. > :22:28.demonstrators. They were taken into custody and these beatings happened
:22:28. > :22:34.in custody. He said his name tag was removed. Police -- he says
:22:34. > :22:40.police took off their name-tags so there would not be identified.
:22:40. > :22:48.this 31st March group? There is an investigation into some of these
:22:48. > :22:56.allegations. But there is no systematic torture in Jordan. It is
:22:56. > :23:06.illegal. Despite the fact of the European Court cost -- European
:23:06. > :23:12.
:23:12. > :23:20.port sauce -- European Court's They said the evidence against Abu
:23:20. > :23:26.Qatada was found on at all sure. That was their outstanding concern.
:23:26. > :23:31.That is context well. He lost the appeal. When he goes back and faces
:23:32. > :23:37.retrial, the evidence against him... We know will not be obtained under
:23:37. > :23:42.torture. It is illegal under the constitution to practise torture or
:23:42. > :23:52.obtained evidence under torture. Will Abu Qatada be seen in public
:23:52. > :23:55.
:23:55. > :24:01.again? I would not get into British domestic policies. That is a