:00:02. > :00:12.the latest European treaty. That is a summary of the headlines.
:00:12. > :00:17.That's it from me. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:17. > :00:23.The people of Greece shocked much of Europe by their parliamentary
:00:23. > :00:30.elections on May 6th when they gave no party the clear majority. The
:00:30. > :00:38.radical Left was left in second place. My guest opposes the
:00:38. > :00:47.memorandum which gives Greece the austerity package. My guess is a
:00:47. > :00:57.top economic adviser. The question is do they believe they can stay in
:00:57. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:27.the eurozone while tearing up the Welcome to HARDtalk. Hello.
:01:28. > :01:32.Professor, do you like being in the euro? Yes. We say that we would
:01:33. > :01:39.like to continues to be part of the Monetary Union of the eurozone. We
:01:39. > :01:48.also believe that our policies will stabilise the eurozone. They will
:01:48. > :01:58.not pursue -- pursue it to disaster. So you will miss it when you have
:01:58. > :02:00.
:02:00. > :02:06.to leave? We would not like to leave because we now face, as a
:02:06. > :02:13.country, and insoluble equation. We would have to pay 110 billion euros
:02:13. > :02:20.in taxes until the year 2020. We would have to balance the budget
:02:20. > :02:26.and we have to create funds to boost growth. This is an insoluble
:02:26. > :02:34.equation because posterity makes things worse and worse. --
:02:34. > :02:38.austerity. The Greek debt is a barrel without a bottom. It is not
:02:38. > :02:44.possible for the citizens of Europe to continue to put money into this
:02:44. > :02:48.part. We would like to stop this. There are many economists who would
:02:48. > :02:53.agree with your analysis of the problem that you are in a position
:02:53. > :03:03.which is impossible, but they think you're solution means inevitably
:03:03. > :03:08.you would have to leave. They say you must warn people responsibly,
:03:08. > :03:15.not only telling them about the debt but also the road on the exit
:03:15. > :03:24.of the river. You are on your way out? That man is a former member
:03:24. > :03:28.and a former president of the coalition. Now we are a party...
:03:28. > :03:32.But the point is there are people all over Europe who think that
:03:32. > :03:39.maybe you should get out of the euro and then you can solve this
:03:39. > :03:42.impossible problem. I give this option zero probability. If one
:03:42. > :03:51.country least the euro then the eurozone would stop being a
:03:51. > :03:58.monetary union. It would be a fixed exchange rate area. Then one
:03:58. > :04:06.country after another would follow the exit path. The re-evaluation of
:04:06. > :04:10.the financial risk of the Italian, Portuguese and Spanish debt would
:04:10. > :04:16.lead to double digits and this would be the end of the eurozone.
:04:16. > :04:21.Is that not blackmail? You are saying if you do not do what we are
:04:21. > :04:31.saying been the eurozone would collapse. I think it is a form of
:04:31. > :04:31.
:04:31. > :04:36.blackmail in this. The forces that want to continue with the austerity
:04:36. > :04:42.half, and I mean all over Europe, use this argument that either we
:04:42. > :04:47.have to comply with the austerity or leave the eurozone. But the
:04:47. > :04:53.meaning of the European Union is more democracy, not the
:04:53. > :04:59.blackmailing of people, but we have no choice. They have to follow the
:04:59. > :05:05.same policy forever. I am confident the leaders of the European Union
:05:05. > :05:14.will realise that the people of any country have the right to choose an
:05:14. > :05:17.alternative policy. Indeed. Indeed. But the other 400 million people in
:05:17. > :05:22.the eurozone have the right to say we are not going to give you any
:05:22. > :05:29.more money unless you obey the rules. A German Interior Minister
:05:29. > :05:32.says that anyone who wants to see hull must show a certain amount of
:05:32. > :05:37.reasonableness. David Cameron has said the people of Greece have a
:05:37. > :05:41.choice, to stick with the commitments or two vote to leave.
:05:41. > :05:49.So everybody has a choice, including the eurozone members to
:05:49. > :05:54.think you are doing the wrong thing. I think the situation is more
:05:54. > :06:02.complicated. We do not have Greece on the one hand and all the other
:06:02. > :06:06.Europeans on the other. We have different policies in all parts of
:06:06. > :06:12.Europe and different parties, trade unions and so on which oppose these
:06:12. > :06:17.policies. What we are saying is that we want to discuss with our
:06:17. > :06:26.partners alternative policies about another architect of the eurozone.
:06:26. > :06:31.We have a lot of voices, all over Europe, for example the leader of
:06:31. > :06:37.an institute who said that it is not possible to consider the one
:06:37. > :06:43.policy as the only option. That is the austerity policy. We have to
:06:43. > :06:49.find a way out. This is also what the interior minister said himself.
:06:49. > :06:54.Yes, OK. We have to open the discussion. You are talking in a
:06:55. > :06:59.reasonable way about it seeing where we can go but another MP says
:06:59. > :07:07.the abolition of the memorandum is a non negotiable and you are not
:07:07. > :07:11.going to accept austerity. I have to explain this. We have to say
:07:11. > :07:18.that austerity is not negotiable. Those are the by-laws which brought
:07:18. > :07:24.the tensions which have destroyed the welfare state. They are going
:07:24. > :07:30.to put more taxes on the poor. This is not negotiable, this has to stop
:07:30. > :07:35.for some on the other hand, the Central Bank of Greece is also the
:07:35. > :07:42.central bank of the other 16 eurozone members. We have to
:07:42. > :07:46.discuss with the European central bank the other countries in the EU
:07:46. > :07:56.and the eurozone have to find a solution about the dead. We think
:07:56. > :07:58.
:07:58. > :08:04.the way the German debt was regulated and was put on growth in
:08:04. > :08:09.1953 is a good basis to start discussions. Everybody understands
:08:09. > :08:14.that Greece is hurtling. Everybody has sympathy for Greece. -- is
:08:14. > :08:23.hurting. But you are talking about a guaranteed income, medical care,
:08:23. > :08:29.social protection, the 80 reduction, - you do not have the money -- VAT
:08:29. > :08:35.reduction. We realise how difficult the situation is. We have said that
:08:35. > :08:42.first of all, we must stop with austerity. No more cuts. Then we
:08:42. > :08:50.can have growth by having a moratorium on a tax paying for some
:08:50. > :08:56.years, if we agree with our partners and see growth again, we
:08:56. > :09:03.have to see, from below and going up, an increase in pensions and
:09:03. > :09:09.salaries and so on the people who suffered very large cuts during the
:09:09. > :09:14.last three years. Just to be clear, that means you will not pay any of
:09:14. > :09:18.the debt that you owe from the start because you cannot do it
:09:18. > :09:28.following the policies you have just set out? We say we have to
:09:28. > :09:28.
:09:28. > :09:35.discuss a moratorium on paying the taxes for five years and then to
:09:35. > :09:44.find a solution in paying those debts on the basis of a common
:09:44. > :09:48.agreement, which will contain the level of interest paid and the debt
:09:49. > :09:55.of a early payment. And also a possible haircut on some part of
:09:55. > :10:04.the dead. This is a solution which would be beneficial to both sides.
:10:04. > :10:09.If we cannot pay the debt as it is now, if the debt is a barrel
:10:09. > :10:18.without a bottom, this is not good for both sides. But as you know the
:10:18. > :10:22.lenders, and the German Foreign Minister, has said that if Greece
:10:23. > :10:29.ends the process than I cannot see that the money can be paid out. So
:10:29. > :10:34.you are not going to get the money? With this agreement with the German
:10:34. > :10:39.leaders, we strongly believe that Europe and the eurozone is not only
:10:39. > :10:42.them. But they have the money. They are the people with the money and
:10:42. > :10:49.the Interior Minister has said we are not prepared to pour money into
:10:49. > :10:54.a bottomless pit. That is how he sees Greece, as a bottomless pit.
:10:54. > :11:03.We are a community of 17 countries. We say we have to find a solution
:11:03. > :11:07.which is beneficial to all sides. We have seen that in France. What
:11:07. > :11:11.Francois Hollande said during the electoral campaign and what he
:11:11. > :11:17.continues to say now is something different from what we discussed
:11:17. > :11:23.until this point. So we are confident that starting from Greece,
:11:23. > :11:27.and in other countries, for example the Netherlands, which has
:11:27. > :11:33.elections in a short time, it is not clear who the strongest party
:11:33. > :11:38.will be. Indeed. We see a wind of change all over Europe and we are
:11:38. > :11:43.confident we will find a solution that will help the majority of the
:11:43. > :11:52.Greek people. Maybe you can explain this. In your quest for money you
:11:52. > :11:57.are also talking about German World War II reparations. What is that
:11:57. > :12:03.about? This is something that started from the initiatives of
:12:03. > :12:13.many people and has to be discussed on a democratic and open a level.
:12:13. > :12:13.
:12:13. > :12:17.What we are asking now is not a conflict with Germany, we are
:12:17. > :12:21.talking about a reasonable solution to the problem, which is not only a
:12:21. > :12:31.Greek problem but a European problem. You have made that
:12:31. > :12:32.
:12:32. > :12:37.absolutely clear. But I am trying to figure out why, the government
:12:37. > :12:42.of Angela Merkel is not responsible for what happened in 1942 in Greece
:12:42. > :12:50.so why are you talking about what war to reparations? You think
:12:50. > :13:00.Germany owes you something? No. We say that the way the German debt
:13:00. > :13:05.was cut and renegotiated in the year 1953 is a good basis to
:13:05. > :13:10.discuss for the present Greek and European debt. That is to combine
:13:10. > :13:17.the repayment of interest with the growth of the economy. An economy
:13:17. > :13:24.which is in a recession, like the recession we now face with minus
:13:24. > :13:34.6.5%, in the year 2012, cannot repay its debt. This is clear. We
:13:34. > :13:39.
:13:39. > :13:43.I know that you have said it is not just for Germany, but they
:13:43. > :13:48.effectively are the paymasters. I had just been in Germany fairly
:13:48. > :13:53.recently. The Greek problem is this, some of your richest people do not
:13:53. > :14:00.pay taxes, you do not work hard enough as a nation, you have a very
:14:00. > :14:08.bloated state, and you paid public sector wage increases of 50% which
:14:08. > :14:12.you could not afford. You have got to cut this. The actual problem is
:14:12. > :14:21.the rich people do not pay taxes. We are the only party who are
:14:21. > :14:25.saying this. We are the only party who has nothing to do with the
:14:25. > :14:35.scandals that devastated our economy and our public sector,
:14:35. > :14:37.
:14:37. > :14:41.because we strongly believe there were other large corporations who
:14:41. > :14:51.paid a lot of money to politicians to take some jobs. We say that
:14:51. > :14:52.
:14:52. > :14:57.another problem is we have to change the public sector,
:14:57. > :15:02.especially the Ministry of Economics, in order to be able to
:15:02. > :15:08.collect taxes, because it is not only a matter of tax coefficients,
:15:08. > :15:14.it is a matter of how effective these agencies are, and we see that
:15:14. > :15:24.according to the' economic data, Greece collects at least 5% less
:15:24. > :15:25.
:15:25. > :15:29.taxes as a percentage of the GDP, compared to the European average.
:15:29. > :15:36.The poor people who should -- should not be the ones who pay
:15:36. > :15:40.taxes. So you broadly agree with a French minister who say the answer
:15:40. > :15:47.to the Greek problem is who -- is to stop living scandalously beyond
:15:47. > :15:52.its means and to pay people to do nothing. This is not a problem of
:15:52. > :16:00.the Greek people. This is a wrong way to put the problem, to put the
:16:00. > :16:07.question. It is only a specific social strata of the society which
:16:07. > :16:13.did this, and the financial elites, which were very closely
:16:14. > :16:17.interconnected with the political elite. They are the PASOK Party and
:16:17. > :16:23.the New Democracy Party, which ruled the country for decades, and
:16:23. > :16:30.created this corrupt environment, they have to go. We are here to
:16:31. > :16:35.make them go. I notice that Syriza's leader said that it told
:16:35. > :16:41.the European Union that if you sink us, we would take you down with us.
:16:41. > :16:47.That is pretty much what you think as well, isn't it? I did not
:16:47. > :16:51.understand the whole of the question. Alexis Tsipras, he said
:16:51. > :16:59.to the European Union, talking about the eurozone, if you sink us,
:16:59. > :17:05.we will take you down with us. That is blackmail. What he said is what
:17:06. > :17:10.I also said, that it is impossible according to our analysis, to have
:17:10. > :17:17.a country thrown out of the eurozone, and the eurozone continue
:17:17. > :17:25.to exist, because as I told you, and as many analysts say, this will
:17:25. > :17:31.mean a spontaneous re-evaluation of financial rates, on the side of the
:17:31. > :17:39.financial markets, and this will lead to a catastrophe, and that is
:17:39. > :17:44.to interest rate of double digits, Italian and Spanish debt, first of
:17:44. > :17:50.all, which cannot be implemented by any authority. You did explain that.
:17:50. > :17:58.But I'm trying to get to the point. Maybe that is what Alexis Tsipras
:17:58. > :18:03.said as well. He was not trying to blackmail anybody. But that is
:18:03. > :18:09.blackmail. You are describing it as a fact, and you are saying that if
:18:09. > :18:17.you throw us out, the eurozone will unravel. You may be right, but you
:18:17. > :18:21.are saying to everybody in the eurozone, into what we tell you.
:18:21. > :18:27.are saying to open the discussion because it is a crisis which
:18:28. > :18:31.threatens all of us. Not only Greece, not only Ireland or
:18:31. > :18:41.Portugal, who are under a bail out programme, but the whole of the
:18:41. > :18:44.
:18:44. > :18:48.eurozone. And we have to discuss a new role for the ECB, a new role
:18:48. > :18:54.for the surplus and deficit countries, about all the problems
:18:54. > :19:02.that have prevented make this eurozone they re- vulnerable to
:19:02. > :19:10.speculation. -- very vulnerable. The worry that your party and
:19:10. > :19:15.completely Alexis Tsipras, is out of his step in this? Your
:19:15. > :19:25.government has ever been in power anywhere. -- your party. Our party
:19:25. > :19:27.
:19:27. > :19:31.has never governed yet, but we have very well educated candidates who
:19:31. > :19:36.can play a very important role in the new government. We are going to
:19:36. > :19:42.depend on the people, we are going to depend on experts, and we are
:19:42. > :19:48.going to depend on ideas that come from everywhere, and we will open a
:19:48. > :19:53.discussion on a European level, and maybe beyond that, and we are
:19:53. > :19:57.confident that we will have a very effective programme which would
:19:57. > :20:04.change the course of the country, which will stop corruption, and
:20:04. > :20:09.which will boost growth again. take it you would not get on a
:20:10. > :20:14.plane if the pilot said, I have never flown before, and you are
:20:14. > :20:19.asking the Greek people to get on board with Alexis Tsipras, and he
:20:19. > :20:25.has never been in government before. The people of Greece has realised
:20:25. > :20:31.that we need a change, that the former pilot was leading deplane to
:20:31. > :20:36.hit a mountain or something like that, or to drown in the sea, and
:20:36. > :20:44.that has to change. That has to change. Things are more complicated.
:20:44. > :20:49.We are not speaking about a pilot but a whole movement, which has the
:20:49. > :20:54.experts and has the experience to change things. Alexis Tsipras also
:20:54. > :21:00.said it is a war between people and capitalism, and Greece is on the
:21:00. > :21:07.front line of that war. Is that how you see it? It is one way to
:21:07. > :21:16.describe things. In all countries, we see that these austerity
:21:16. > :21:25.policies, they benefit specific elites. The capitalist elite. On
:21:25. > :21:29.the other hand, on the other side, and we see the 99% of the
:21:30. > :21:36.population, the majority, they have interests which conflict with the
:21:36. > :21:40.interests of the elite. It is another short way to describe the
:21:40. > :21:45.situation, that all over the developed world, that is what we
:21:45. > :21:51.are living in right now. Some people listening to this will think
:21:51. > :21:58.it sounds like student politics, it is not serious. I told you, this
:21:58. > :22:06.does not describe our programme. Our programme is very specific. It
:22:06. > :22:10.speaks about social justice, a system that according to our
:22:10. > :22:17.constitution, will put the burden on the ones that have to pay,
:22:17. > :22:23.because they have evaded taxes for a decade, the ones who do not think
:22:23. > :22:27.about the right of the people all the decisions of the people, but
:22:27. > :22:33.run to move their money to speculation or outside the country,
:22:33. > :22:42.thinking only about the Prophet, and the interest of the majority of
:22:42. > :22:45.the people, which must at least decide what they want. Are you
:22:45. > :22:52.confident that you will be the biggest party after the new
:22:52. > :22:59.elections? Yes. We discuss with the people every day, we make speeches,
:22:59. > :23:06.we here the people, we let people tell us what they think, and we are
:23:06. > :23:11.confident that what has started a one year ago, on the squares of
:23:11. > :23:19.Greece, and which expressed itself on 6th May, in the previous
:23:19. > :23:23.elections, will go forward and we will be the strongest party. Do you
:23:23. > :23:26.expect this summer a lot of tourists will not come to Greece
:23:26. > :23:30.because they are worried about instability and thousands of
:23:30. > :23:36.tourists will say they are not going there. We expect exactly the
:23:36. > :23:41.opposite. We are confident that we will be able to stabilise the
:23:41. > :23:47.situation within a few months, to show to the world that now a New