:00:02. > :00:05.been told it's safe to return to their homes. A quarry lake near
:00:05. > :00:13.Pennal had sprung a leak, forcing the emergency services to relieve
:00:13. > :00:15.the pressure on its wall. Now it is time for HARDtalk. The police in
:00:15. > :00:24.Britain, used to being revered, respected and admired at home and
:00:24. > :00:27.abroad, find themselves under a heavy black cloud. With allegations
:00:27. > :00:37.corruption denting trust, the force now also faces dramatic cuts to its
:00:37. > :00:37.
:00:37. > :00:39.budget and changes to its structure. My guest today is the chairman of
:00:39. > :00:42.the Police Federation in England and Wales. Paul McKeever says
:00:42. > :00:45.proposed government reforms could lead to the destruction of the
:00:45. > :00:48.police as we know it. But with the force untouched by change for
:00:48. > :00:58.decades, is now not an ideal opportunity to shape up for the
:00:58. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:22.challenges of the 21st century? Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
:01:22. > :01:26.the police in crisis? I think it is heading for crisis at the moment,
:01:26. > :01:30.going through the most extraordinary change in the UK,
:01:30. > :01:35.particularly within England and Wales. This is unprecedented.
:01:35. > :01:39.Everything is happening at once. The government has a right to
:01:39. > :01:43.introduce change, but there is so much happening we think there will
:01:43. > :01:49.be problems when we get to the end of the programme we are doing at
:01:49. > :01:53.the moment. In 2008 the then British Home Secretary Jacqui Smith
:01:53. > :01:59.told Parliament that the British police were the envy of the world.
:01:59. > :02:04.Indeed, yes. And yet now they are faced with the Leveson Inquiry
:02:05. > :02:10.about the relationship between the police and media. And the riots of
:02:10. > :02:17.last summer. Are you still the envy of the world? When I speak to
:02:17. > :02:20.colleagues in Australasia, Africa, the Far East, they do hold us in
:02:20. > :02:23.high regard because they realise that when there are crises in the
:02:23. > :02:31.system we actually do something about them rather than let them
:02:31. > :02:37.fester. We do not want things such as corruption in the British police
:02:37. > :02:44.service. We have a reputation for being very honest. You do have that
:02:44. > :02:51.reputation for openness and honesty very much abroad. However, if I can
:02:51. > :02:57.just quote a couple of European newspapers. AE Berlin newspaper
:02:57. > :03:02.rights that Britain has lost faith now in every authority - the banks,
:03:02. > :03:08.politicians, media and also the police. Another newspaper says the
:03:08. > :03:13.riots have many causes but include its strong opposition and bad
:03:13. > :03:17.relationships between the people and the police. A German paper
:03:17. > :03:22.talking about the ongoing inquiry looking into the relationship
:03:23. > :03:30.between the press, police and politicians. They say it showed the
:03:30. > :03:34.British public that there politicians were a farce, calling
:03:34. > :03:40.police money-grabbing. That is an extreme view of what is happening
:03:40. > :03:45.in this country. We recognise there are problems and we're proud of
:03:45. > :03:50.having a free and liberal democracy and Prague of protecting it. I
:03:50. > :03:54.think we have some of the highest ratings of any working in these
:03:54. > :03:59.professions. The only professions which score higher than last are
:03:59. > :04:04.doctors and nurses. And when you think of the type of people we deal
:04:04. > :04:09.with, the kind of people that do not want to come into contact with
:04:09. > :04:15.police officers, and yet we score ratings in the 70s. It does not
:04:15. > :04:19.give the same picture as those you up a train. A crime survey in March
:04:19. > :04:24.showed that less than half had confidence in the ability of the
:04:24. > :04:28.police to deal with crime and the anti-social behaviour. Research
:04:28. > :04:31.commissioned last year by victim Support showed that people who
:04:31. > :04:36.suffered crime and therefore came into contact with the police and
:04:36. > :04:40.the Criminal Justice System where 20% less likely to feel confident
:04:40. > :04:46.in police officers than those who had not had direct contact with the
:04:46. > :04:51.police. Doesn't that worry you? have to prove ourselves with every
:04:51. > :04:54.generation which come through. When you listen to Bernard Hogan-Howe,
:04:54. > :05:02.the Commissioner of the police, he is very clear that we have to
:05:02. > :05:06.engage with the public. Uniquely, in the world, we police by consent.
:05:06. > :05:12.We do not carry guns. It is important that we get it right with
:05:12. > :05:16.public. But you're not getting right, are you? We hear that people
:05:16. > :05:22.who come into contact with you are losing faith. I think we are
:05:22. > :05:27.getting it right. I was at the funeral and memorial service of PC
:05:27. > :05:37.David Rathband recently. Colin Washington spoke about the values
:05:37. > :05:41.in which -- British policing. The sort of values that people still do
:05:41. > :05:47.value in this country within British police officers. Most
:05:47. > :05:53.people do still have trusting in policing. You say most people - do
:05:53. > :05:57.you really believe that? In the late 19th century, the first
:05:57. > :06:01.instances of policing by consent. The issue that the police were the
:06:01. > :06:07.public and the public were the police. It does not seem like that
:06:07. > :06:10.these days - look at the riots. is vitally important that we are
:06:10. > :06:14.part of the public and the public were part of the police, that we
:06:14. > :06:18.are citizens. We have to continually reinforce that message
:06:18. > :06:25.and have the confidence of the public. If there is work to be done,
:06:25. > :06:28.we shall do it. Exactly. Isn't this a time for reforms? This could be a
:06:28. > :06:34.way to really get the public on board if you show that you were
:06:34. > :06:39.listening. The Police Federation represents all police officers up
:06:39. > :06:43.to the rank of chief inspector and we want them to call for a whole
:06:44. > :06:51.scale review of policing up to a Royal Commission, truly independent.
:06:51. > :06:53.Nobody has taken us upon it. There is a review undertaken by Lord
:06:53. > :06:58.Stevens a highly respected man he used to police the metropolis in
:06:58. > :07:03.London. We will take part in that review on policing as it goes
:07:03. > :07:08.forward. But I think we miss an opportunity in not having my World
:07:08. > :07:13.Commission. Piecemeal reform, pay and conditions and everything that
:07:13. > :07:18.goes with it. The government does not see it as piecemeal reform.
:07:18. > :07:21.Theresa May, the Home Secretary, says the police to one of the most
:07:21. > :07:27.important jobs in this country but we can have them do their job even
:07:27. > :07:33.more effectively. Changes to pay and conditions, cuts to budgets,
:07:33. > :07:37.introduction to elected commissioners - all will make the
:07:37. > :07:42.force more responsive to citizens but also transformed in its ability
:07:42. > :07:47.to fight crime. Surely you would want that? We all want the same
:07:47. > :07:52.things, but some of these reforms do not bring troop not for me
:07:52. > :07:55.within my thinking as somebody who has been policing for Thetford is.
:07:55. > :08:00.The government has come into power and we said, we are here to help
:08:00. > :08:05.you as the Police Federation. We are set up by Parliament to help
:08:05. > :08:09.police offices and we want to copy. They have gone full would with an
:08:09. > :08:17.ideological position. You do not improve policing by cutting it by
:08:17. > :08:21.20%. They chose to ring-fence the NHS, increase oversee development,
:08:21. > :08:25.cut defence. They cut us much further and much deeper. David
:08:25. > :08:30.Cameron when he came into office said, we are always in this
:08:30. > :08:38.together. And we will have to shake up their share of the burden. I
:08:38. > :08:45.said OK. I think that was unique in the public sector. We have a poor
:08:45. > :08:49.year pay freeze and extra contributions to our pensions. We
:08:49. > :08:56.have an additional pay review going on which has taken even more away
:08:56. > :09:00.from them. That is not fair. will get into those details later
:09:00. > :09:07.including those who say it has been more than fair on police for a long
:09:07. > :09:11.time. Let's look at what policing is actually about, because a
:09:11. > :09:17.concern that you always be about to serving the public. The question is,
:09:17. > :09:22.what is the police there to do? And a few these days trying to juggle
:09:22. > :09:26.too many things? If I look did go up delegates at deep Conservative
:09:27. > :09:31.Party Conference last year. He said when needed more rat catchers and
:09:31. > :09:38.yes social workers. The representative of the Thames Valley
:09:38. > :09:41.Police Federation, Sergeant Graeme Smith said that 20% of police
:09:41. > :09:47.activity was not crime fighting but putting a plaster on the crux of
:09:47. > :09:51.society. A thing that is a fair reflection of what we do. And we
:09:51. > :09:56.are an emergency service. The clue is in the name. We are they when
:09:56. > :09:59.no-one else is available. And he is right to say that. That is
:09:59. > :10:08.something government misses when it says that all we should be doing is
:10:08. > :10:12.fighting crime. We do a lot more than that. But should you be?
:10:12. > :10:17.Going back to the 90s, people said you should be focusing more on
:10:17. > :10:24.cutting crime. When Theresa May came into government she said she
:10:24. > :10:28.wanted due to cut crime - no more common at no less. We've got the
:10:28. > :10:35.lowest crime figures in 30 years. We are getting something right over
:10:35. > :10:40.the years. At the moment we are losing 16,000 minimum police
:10:40. > :10:46.officers over the next four years. Arguably, that is from the Office,
:10:46. > :10:52.not the frontline. That is completely wrong. When you look at
:10:52. > :10:56.the figures accepted by the Parliamentary Library, 5216 were
:10:56. > :11:04.lost from the frontline in the first year of cuts alone. But over
:11:04. > :11:11.the four years. In the first year of cuts, 5216 from the front line,
:11:11. > :11:16.7,000 in total. You have less resilience from the front line. The
:11:16. > :11:24.number cut to 16,000, the same number we had to put on the streets
:11:24. > :11:29.in London alone to quell those rights. If you are only dealing
:11:29. > :11:32.with confrontational policing you use the contract with the public.
:11:32. > :11:39.That relationship is important where we are surely police by
:11:39. > :11:44.consent within the community. is the debate, though, isn't it?
:11:44. > :11:47.Should there be so much more to policing than that and came in not
:11:47. > :11:55.outsource a lot of those activities? For example, by
:11:55. > :12:01.privatisation. Various police forces are looking at outsourcing,
:12:01. > :12:07.not just paperwork because police are drowning in paperwork. The West
:12:07. > :12:12.Midlands have got private contractors who can help detain
:12:12. > :12:15.suspects and career criminal investigations. Used so much
:12:15. > :12:21.including the resilience and effectiveness of having officers
:12:21. > :12:25.there to deal with the peaks in emergency service. What you lose is
:12:25. > :12:30.much more fundamental, the independence, the accountability
:12:31. > :12:36.that I as a public servant and every police officer has. I am
:12:36. > :12:40.accountable to you, nobody else. Not a shareholder or a board of
:12:40. > :12:46.directors as those working within the private sector within policing
:12:46. > :12:50.are. That it's a fundamental difference. Let's talk about
:12:50. > :12:54.accountability and fairness and serving the public. One of the
:12:54. > :12:58.proposed changes that has upset you very much is a political change.
:12:58. > :13:03.The idea that there will be new police and crime commissioners who
:13:03. > :13:09.will hold police officer to work out. They will be electable as of
:13:09. > :13:12.November BC. The government says Eades encourages transparency. The
:13:12. > :13:19.police Commissioner said it will make the police was much more
:13:19. > :13:22.accountable. Surely you should be supporting it. I gave evidence on a
:13:22. > :13:32.bill dealing with police commissioners and made it clear
:13:32. > :13:37.that it was not our place to decide how we would be held to workout.
:13:37. > :13:42.That is a slippery slope. Politicians have decided unelected
:13:42. > :13:47.commissioners - so be it. We can see problems with the dynamic
:13:47. > :13:51.between the chief officer, in particular, and with the
:13:51. > :13:56.Commissioners. Because if you look at who has control and have already,
:13:56. > :14:00.he can sack the other one. The person who can Sackey is the Police
:14:00. > :14:05.Commissioner, not the police officer. So they have real control
:14:05. > :14:15.over what that police officer does. The people discover will be the
:14:15. > :14:17.
:14:17. > :14:22.public. Their safety will be put at When we look at other countries
:14:22. > :14:27.like the US or France, there is not the perception amongst the public
:14:27. > :14:32.that their police forces have been politicised. In any policing system,
:14:32. > :14:36.you need to trust. You build that up over a long period of time. The
:14:36. > :14:42.British police service was the first formed in the world. People
:14:42. > :14:47.know what it is. They trusted and understand it and the model is
:14:47. > :14:51.spoken about across the country. If you fundamentally change that model
:14:51. > :14:55.with more privatisation, less accountability and independence,
:14:55. > :14:59.you are changing that relationship with the police service. But that
:14:59. > :15:03.politicisation is the elected police commissioners. You're losing
:15:03. > :15:12.that independence to some degree of operation. They can be some degree
:15:12. > :15:22.of influence exerted on the cheap offices. But look at the financial
:15:22. > :15:26.
:15:26. > :15:32.changes. 20% cuts, losing thousands of police. Theresa May has said
:15:32. > :15:37.that there is no way of avoiding that because we are in exceptional
:15:37. > :15:42.financial circumstances. Surely you can't argue with that. When the
:15:42. > :15:46.government came into office, we recognised that whoever was going
:15:46. > :15:56.to be the government, there would be faced with a difficult problem.
:15:56. > :15:56.
:15:56. > :16:06.They have chosen to go down one wrote -- won a rota and in times of
:16:06. > :16:07.
:16:07. > :16:11.severe downturn, there is one model you can take which is not the one
:16:11. > :16:14.the government talk. The government has decided they will turn the taps
:16:14. > :16:20.off in the public sector and policing is being hit particularly
:16:20. > :16:26.hard. When they came to power we said authorities the model you want
:16:26. > :16:33.to take, we will support you. the police have been left untouched
:16:33. > :16:38.for a long time. Peak -- people who support the reform say, you can't
:16:38. > :16:47.sack a police man. You can. can't make a police officer
:16:47. > :16:50.redundant. They have guaranteed work. What often happens is that in
:16:50. > :16:55.the beginning of their career there are in the front line but as their
:16:55. > :16:59.career progresses they move away from serving the public. And a huge
:16:59. > :17:04.amount of the budget is spent on police pay. Police pensions are far
:17:04. > :17:09.more generous than the public health sector or teachers. People
:17:09. > :17:12.who support his reform say about time the police do their bit.
:17:12. > :17:22.were one of the integral parts of the gauche and review that took
:17:22. > :17:26.place in the early part of 2002. It is disingenuous to say that we have
:17:27. > :17:32.not been taking our fair share of the cuts. His argument that we get
:17:32. > :17:35.paid more than somebody else and we don't deserve it, it is very
:17:35. > :17:39.peculiar because everybody is paid more than somebody else and
:17:39. > :17:42.everybody is paid less than somebody else. The only
:17:42. > :17:46.comparatives ever used by the government are those who are paid
:17:46. > :17:50.less than ours. If you look at the rest of the Criminal Justice System,
:17:50. > :17:59.judges are paid much more than ours and their pensions are untouched.
:17:59. > :18:05.Why it isn't there a review of judges' pensions? What do I say to
:18:05. > :18:12.police officers who write to me and say, I am losing with the pay
:18:12. > :18:17.freeze, pension contributions and Pay Review, I'm losing 25 to 30% of
:18:17. > :18:20.my spending power. I can't make ends meet. What to do was say to
:18:20. > :18:25.them when David Cameron said that we would be treated fairly.
:18:25. > :18:32.Everybody was in this together. We have been treated less favourably
:18:32. > :18:35.than other people, almost on an ideological position. Why do you
:18:35. > :18:39.insist you're being picked on? Theresa May said she wants the
:18:39. > :18:47.police to stop insisting they are being picked on. I should add -- I
:18:47. > :18:51.am sure she does. Denis O'Connor is very clear. He has all the tools at
:18:51. > :18:56.his disposal in the British policing system and he said you
:18:56. > :19:01.can't go past 12% in terms of cuts. There will be real problems if you
:19:01. > :19:11.do that. We support that. That is way ahead of defence cuts,
:19:11. > :19:15.education cuts, NHS cuts and elsewhere. But to recognise that it
:19:15. > :19:20.is your duty to defend and look after the interests of the police
:19:20. > :19:26.force, but when you look outside the borders, at Greece suffering
:19:26. > :19:31.austerity cuts, Portugal, Italy, all the countries that are having
:19:31. > :19:35.to face austerity measures, and that includes the UK, are making
:19:35. > :19:41.cuts across public services, including the police. We accept
:19:41. > :19:44.other countries are extreme cases but we have to look at what is
:19:44. > :19:53.being done in this country and there is no question we are being
:19:53. > :20:00.treated less terribly than other people in the public sector. This
:20:00. > :20:04.is going along with all the other changes in policing as well. The
:20:04. > :20:11.downsizing of the surface, the accountability within the service,
:20:11. > :20:14.the privatisation. When we conducted a survey last year, 98%
:20:15. > :20:22.of offices said they would usually disillusioned and a demoralised by
:20:22. > :20:25.what was happening. Over 90% said they were thinking of leaving.
:20:25. > :20:32.have talked about the demoralisation a lot and warned
:20:32. > :20:37.that police officers were to leave. Is this a threat to the government?
:20:37. > :20:44.This is reality. You only have to look at what happened in London
:20:44. > :20:48.prior to the Federation conference. 35,000 police officers went out on
:20:48. > :20:52.the streets of London and said, listen to what we're saying.
:20:53. > :20:57.Policing is changing fundamentally. Public safety is at risk. We hope
:20:57. > :21:07.the government will take notice. When you say unintended
:21:07. > :21:13.
:21:13. > :21:19.consequences, will there be police officers who will dig in their
:21:19. > :21:23.heels and say, I went to my job? And not putting up at this? Police
:21:23. > :21:27.officers, into the service because they care about people. Police
:21:27. > :21:33.officers will do what they can to protect people. But that is
:21:33. > :21:37.becoming more difficult. I speak to hundreds of offices at a time and
:21:37. > :21:40.the same feelings are coming out. They themselves are feeling less
:21:40. > :21:44.safe because they are being stretched so much. But there are
:21:44. > :21:48.also fuelling a great fear for the public because they are being put
:21:48. > :21:54.in danger as well. This is an incremental process that will take
:21:54. > :21:58.place over the next few years. But it is happening and we should warn
:21:58. > :22:01.the public about it. We tried to warn the government about the
:22:01. > :22:05.potential for riots and we were told that we were scaremongering.
:22:05. > :22:11.We saw what we had -- we saw what happened last year. Archie
:22:11. > :22:15.scaremongering now? About what? Saying there will be public
:22:15. > :22:19.disorder and there may be a breakdown of law and order?
:22:19. > :22:29.riots happened because they were not enough officers on the streets.
:22:29. > :22:30.
:22:30. > :22:35.When you have it your offices on the streets, the people who will be
:22:35. > :22:44.taking advantage of that are the criminals. They will be aware of
:22:44. > :22:48.the lessening in police numbers. I can take you back to a former
:22:48. > :22:55.chief constable who talked about what he saw as a widening gap
:22:55. > :23:05.between the police and the public, how the public a perplexed about
:23:05. > :23:11.what the police are doing, he described the force as process
:23:11. > :23:18.dominated and defensive. What would you say to him? He retired about 20
:23:18. > :23:27.years ago. That does not reflect the modern police service.
:23:27. > :23:33.would you describe it? The British police service is a highly complex
:23:33. > :23:38.organisation which is very skilled and based on values. Compassion,
:23:38. > :23:43.caring, stoicism, fortitude and the ability to work autonomously. That
:23:43. > :23:47.is what British policing is based on. A degree of bravery also. That
:23:47. > :23:51.is something I think the government Mrs. They're trying to reform the
:23:51. > :23:54.police and make it based on the qualifications you possess and
:23:54. > :23:59.technical skills. There is nothing wrong with that but we must not
:23:59. > :24:05.move away from the core values and principles. They are respected by