:00:17. > :00:22.Now on BBC News it's time for It geology and religion. Saddam is
:00:22. > :00:27.afflicted by conflict. Once the largest and most diverse states in
:00:27. > :00:31.Africa, it split into two last year after a civil war killing millions
:00:31. > :00:37.and displaced many. Tension continues out southern Sudan with
:00:37. > :00:46.its new southern neighbour on the border region. My guest is the
:00:46. > :00:56.ambassador to the United Kingdom Abdullahi Alazreg. Is this regime
:00:56. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:18.Ambassador, welcome. It has been one year since South Sudan became
:01:18. > :01:26.independent. Since then, the two sides almost came to war again in
:01:26. > :01:33.April. You were forced to vinegars using table by the UN. Talks broke
:01:33. > :01:42.down again with no resolution. Are you serious about peace? A course.
:01:42. > :01:52.More than serious. We have made peace them and signed the agreement
:01:52. > :01:59.to stop this war. We want peace and that's necessary for us for the
:01:59. > :02:04.development and all the progress. It's really important. You say
:02:04. > :02:10.you're serious but both sides say that. The mediator for the African
:02:10. > :02:17.Union says that both sides but trapped in that logic of war. For
:02:17. > :02:23.example, you can't agree on where they did militarised zone should be.
:02:23. > :02:27.When you say both sides you come here different things. You compare
:02:27. > :02:33.the well-established government with an entity that is in the
:02:33. > :02:43.process of the making. South Sudan is not a real country. It's not a
:02:43. > :02:48.
:02:48. > :02:54.real state. It's a state, a metaphorical state. In southern
:02:54. > :02:58.Sudan they are trying to monopolise power. There's a lack of
:02:58. > :03:04.bureaucracy and the lack of government administration. It skews
:03:04. > :03:07.me, you say it's not a proper country. But you agree that South
:03:07. > :03:12.Sudan should hold a referendum on independence and you agreed that it
:03:12. > :03:18.should separate if the majority said they wanted that. White to
:03:18. > :03:24.that? Don't you trust these people who came to power? You should have
:03:24. > :03:30.agreed on the border. We would like peace. That's why we accepted the
:03:30. > :03:33.referendum to make it easier. If not for our efforts the referendum
:03:33. > :03:38.would, had taken place. Out in you agree to the referendum if you
:03:38. > :03:45.cannot agree on the border? It's not our mistake. Its mistake of the
:03:45. > :03:55.people controlling the south. They did not come to that meeting. They
:03:55. > :03:55.
:03:55. > :04:02.were not responsible people. This is not what I am saying. We were
:04:02. > :04:06.unhappy about their behaviour. They do not come to the meetings. The
:04:06. > :04:11.people made their sitting with us every now and again are not serious.
:04:11. > :04:16.His it is a lot of mud-slinging on both sides. Now the south has
:04:16. > :04:26.separated and we Omega Sea At Again and South Sudan points the finger
:04:26. > :04:26.
:04:26. > :04:32.at Saddam. -- sedan. It says you are playing games. The African
:04:32. > :04:41.Union and the UN had given you three months but you not serious.
:04:41. > :04:47.We are serious. South Sudan would not be independent without stars.
:04:47. > :04:52.War is not to benefit anybody. do you explain to South Sudan to
:04:52. > :04:58.comments about your presidents same they don't understand anything
:04:58. > :05:08.except the language of the gun. But those nations have restarted but
:05:08. > :05:08.
:05:08. > :05:13.they accuse you of bombing the area. When he said that it was a reaction
:05:13. > :05:23.about the occupation. This is a reaction about what happened like a
:05:23. > :05:25.
:05:25. > :05:33.stab in the back. It's a reaction to so many bad things. He tried to
:05:33. > :05:38.make peace. Excuse me, what kind of peace is this if you continue to
:05:38. > :05:45.bomb them? The bombardment is not taking place. It took place during
:05:45. > :05:50.the war. And our be you explain on Friday, this Friday, a few days ago,
:05:50. > :06:00.the Governor said on TV that the Sudanese army had been targeting
:06:00. > :06:06.
:06:06. > :06:16.his region by ear and by ground just a few days ago. He is line. --
:06:16. > :06:17.
:06:17. > :06:24.it is alive. He needs to name names. It's not true. They are trying to
:06:24. > :06:32.project themselves as innocent lambs surrounded by Sudanese Walkes.
:06:32. > :06:38.Are you use saying that Sudan has not attacked from the ground or it
:06:38. > :06:43.to South Sudan since the separation? We have attacked during
:06:43. > :06:49.the occupation of our land and bombarded their military camps, yes.
:06:49. > :06:59.How about t How about this is totally incorrect. We never did
:06:59. > :06:59.
:06:59. > :07:07.that. It's just propaganda. South Sudan says you're bombarding and
:07:07. > :07:17.attacking. It a threatens to retaliate. They are continuing to
:07:17. > :07:18.
:07:18. > :07:28.defend their territory. Do you see the prospect of all out war once
:07:28. > :07:28.
:07:29. > :07:38.again? We do not have any desire to occupy any part or any centimetre
:07:39. > :07:39.
:07:39. > :07:49.of the south. This is part of the propaganda. We would like peace
:07:49. > :07:55.with them. It is in our interest. 80% of their food comes from us.
:07:55. > :08:02.It's not good or not right to fight somebody who buys 80% of food from
:08:02. > :08:10.us. You say you were interested in peace and not taking territory. Are
:08:11. > :08:15.you trying to make them a failed state? Are you trying to make
:08:15. > :08:19.trouble in the new country? How about the revenue from the oil, a
:08:19. > :08:27.huge area of dispute. Something the African Union and the United
:08:27. > :08:34.Nations says you have three months to resolve this dispute. When South
:08:34. > :08:42.Sudan was created, you lost 70% of its oil revenue. However you both
:08:42. > :08:46.need each other for exporting the oil. You cannot agree on how much
:08:46. > :08:52.you will charge to allow the world to come through your territory. You
:08:52. > :08:59.are asking $30 each barrel. That's more than anywhere else in the
:08:59. > :09:04.world. Nobody is getting anything because they cannot produce oil and
:09:04. > :09:12.you are losing on all sides. Why are you creating trouble? We did
:09:12. > :09:21.not create these problems. They were irresponsible people. They are
:09:21. > :09:29.creating these problems. Name anyone else? This is business. What
:09:29. > :09:38.you are suggesting is not that oil pipeline. It's processing units for
:09:38. > :09:46.petroleum and refineries. There is a high-cost items. But that is way
:09:46. > :09:49.above anyone else. It's a matter for me the association. They should
:09:49. > :09:57.suggest a reasonable price and we would allow them to use our
:09:57. > :10:02.facilities providing a stop arming the terrorists and groups who are
:10:02. > :10:09.attacking our people and killing innocent people. You're talking
:10:09. > :10:19.about the militia there. Some people accuse people of arming the
:10:19. > :10:20.
:10:20. > :10:25.militia. Both sides, North and South both deny this. It you cannot
:10:25. > :10:32.resolve the differences over this territory and the border and the 12
:10:32. > :10:37.by August, the UN friends economic sanctions. You cannot afford that.
:10:37. > :10:44.You've just lost said the 5% of oil revenue. You cannot afford these
:10:44. > :10:50.sanctions. We are resilient and resourceful. Losing Petroleum
:10:50. > :11:00.Revenue does not mean the collapse. She surely you need to talk
:11:00. > :11:02.
:11:02. > :11:08.constructively. Or we want is peace. Their government in the south has
:11:08. > :11:17.closed the oil fields and that is not constructive. They are closing
:11:17. > :11:27.their oil wells. Bet concentrate on your economic woes. You rely on oil
:11:27. > :11:28.
:11:28. > :11:34.revenue. That not true. International Monetary Fund urges
:11:34. > :11:44.Saddam last week to launch an emergency program to overcome your
:11:44. > :11:47.
:11:48. > :11:53.economic challenges. It is not 80% sign of our revenue. Oil is only
:11:53. > :12:03.20%. We are implementing austerity measures to allow us to overcome
:12:03. > :12:13.the problems. What what do the people say? The price would
:12:13. > :12:13.
:12:13. > :12:23.increase over 23% next year and 26 % later and you prefer his tax
:12:23. > :12:26.
:12:26. > :12:34.hikes. Don't you risk losing public support? The people are very
:12:34. > :12:39.understanding. Most of them are politicians. They understand the
:12:39. > :12:45.hardship by the loss of the poor oil revenue. They do not like what
:12:45. > :12:50.it is doing to the lack of money in their pocket. The newspaper is run
:12:50. > :13:00.by a relative of the President and he said the Government is playing
:13:00. > :13:09.
:13:09. > :13:15.with fire. That does not necessarily mean it the reality.
:13:15. > :13:23.You have had very forceful uprisings. He is is not true. It's
:13:23. > :13:30.part of the propaganda from the south. We did not kill anybody. We
:13:30. > :13:35.do not kill the people. If it kills people we will lose power. Let's
:13:35. > :13:40.look about killing the people inside Sudan with conflict inside
:13:40. > :13:48.and outside at near the border regions and on the Nile river. The
:13:48. > :13:53.peace deal has left grievances of the people near the border
:13:53. > :13:58.unaddressed. They fought with the south in at the civil war and they
:13:58. > :14:08.are being punished now because they are being bombed, not just the
:14:08. > :14:15.
:14:15. > :14:23.Your reason for the war is because the leader did not accept the
:14:23. > :14:31.result of the election, which was free and fair. This is not why am
:14:31. > :14:37.saying. This is what Khartoum is saying. This is a fair and honest
:14:37. > :14:46.election. He did not accept the result. He resorted to fighting.
:14:46. > :14:52.That is the reason behind the war. Are you saying that you are not
:14:52. > :14:58.bombing these regions? Which are not bombing our own people.
:14:58. > :15:08.According to human rights organisations, you are. A group
:15:08. > :15:09.
:15:09. > :15:12.said there was ethnic cleansing of some people. A man is wanted by the
:15:12. > :15:22.International Criminal Court in. Four. He was filmed earlier this
:15:22. > :15:24.
:15:24. > :15:34.year, saying, do not bring them back alive, we havefor them.
:15:34. > :15:35.
:15:35. > :15:45.Firstly, this ethnic cleansing allegation is not true. This is an
:15:45. > :15:46.
:15:46. > :15:55.old allegation against Sudan. Let me give you a list -- I am sorry.
:15:55. > :16:01.We do not have enough time for that. You are denying it? Yes. Because it
:16:01. > :16:11.is not true. A UN co-ordinator has expressed deep concerns about
:16:11. > :16:13.
:16:13. > :16:17.Sudan's actions. He also emphasised food shortages in Blue Nile. They
:16:17. > :16:27.are people fleeing over the border to eloquent refugee camps in South
:16:27. > :16:29.
:16:29. > :16:34.Sudan. A refugee camp was bombed. You are being accused by not just
:16:34. > :16:42.South Sudanese but international human rights organisations and the
:16:42. > :16:45.UN of treating people the Blue Nile state in an abominable fashion.
:16:46. > :16:55.Firstly, an important person said this is not true. I can produce
:16:56. > :17:07.
:17:07. > :17:11.their names. A former UN Secretary for political Affairs said that.
:17:11. > :17:16.Another UN figure agrees. It is not true. We are talking about bombings
:17:16. > :17:26.and attacks. We are talking about blocking humanitarian aid agencies
:17:26. > :17:29.
:17:29. > :17:39.from getting to these regions, from. Four and the Blue Nile region. --
:17:39. > :17:42.
:17:42. > :17:49.Susan Rice is not a credible personality. We are allowing our
:17:49. > :17:59.own to distribute food. Why are you hiring international organisations
:17:59. > :18:15.
:18:15. > :18:23.to these areas? Some of them are... A couple of years ago, people were
:18:23. > :18:30.shipping arms to the rebel movement. We really have to move on. I would
:18:30. > :18:37.like to move to the issue of the internal states that South Sudanese
:18:37. > :18:45.inside Sudan. The South Sudanese are considered illegal foreign
:18:45. > :18:48.residents. A UN figure said hundreds of thousands of
:18:48. > :18:52.southerners are believed to be in Sudan but they did not have the
:18:52. > :19:02.funding to move them. What is to happen with the South Sudanese in
:19:02. > :19:11.Sudan? We have 30,000 students in South Sudan. They are studying and
:19:11. > :19:17.we take care of them. We will not expel them as long as the embassy
:19:17. > :19:21.is ready to issue the proper documents for them. They have been
:19:21. > :19:26.in Sudan for years and been living like brothers and sisters. Nothing
:19:26. > :19:33.has happened to them. The government of Sudan expelled only
:19:33. > :19:38.in the last two months 8,700 families from the Saar. Before that,
:19:38. > :19:47.the expelled 20,000. They confiscated properties and killed
:19:47. > :19:53.them. It is an issue of finger- pointing from both sides. I would
:19:53. > :20:02.like to talk about another issue about legitimacy but Omar al-Bashir.
:20:02. > :20:05.He was indicted for crimes against humanity in Darfur. A prosecutor is
:20:05. > :20:13.asking the Security Council to consider urgent other countries to
:20:13. > :20:16.help to arrest him and that even a should be cut off. He is a
:20:16. > :20:22.beleaguered President. He is running out of legitimacy, don't
:20:22. > :20:32.you think? He is an elected president. I will give him 68% of
:20:32. > :20:35.
:20:35. > :20:45.the awards. The ICC prosecutor is not a credible person. The American
:20:45. > :20:51.
:20:51. > :21:01.envoy to Sudan said there was no genocide in Sudan. Other people
:21:01. > :21:03.
:21:03. > :21:08.agree. The UN said it was one of the worst humanitarian crisis in
:21:08. > :21:15.the world, in Darfur. But going back to the ICC, Malawi has taken
:21:15. > :21:20.heed. It has asked the African Union but to ask Omar al-Bashir to
:21:20. > :21:26.the summit. The summit is not going to be held in Malawi. It may expand
:21:26. > :21:31.this. Malawi was made by the Americans -- Malawi was backed by
:21:31. > :21:39.the Americans. If they allow the President to attend the Senate --
:21:39. > :21:41.the summit, they will deprive them of that money. It is insulting to
:21:41. > :21:47.the President of Malawi. The African Union decided to move the
:21:47. > :21:57.summit from Malawi to elsewhere because Malawi is at respecting
:21:57. > :22:07.even the summit. Let us look at the opposition against MRI inside the
:22:07. > :22:28.
:22:28. > :22:35.People are not happy about... Has We had a rogue based government,
:22:35. > :22:41.even the leader of the party is all of a sudden part of the government.
:22:41. > :22:48.Some other party members a part of this government. They are asking
:22:48. > :22:58.for a regime change. They have to go to the ballot box. But the
:22:58. > :23:02.President came to power through a free and fair election. 68% of that