:00:02. > :00:12.nuclear submarines. The money will go towards modernising the facility
:00:12. > :00:13.
:00:13. > :00:16.where the reactors are built. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:19.Israel's secret service, the Mossad, is regarded as one of the most
:00:19. > :00:22.resourceful and ruthless intelligence agencies in the world.
:00:22. > :00:25.But are Israel's top spies on the same page as the country's
:00:25. > :00:28.politicians when it comes to an assessment of the threat posed by
:00:29. > :00:34.Iran? The question was prompted by Meir Dagan, director of Mossad
:00:34. > :00:37.until a year and a half ago. Just months after retiring he said an
:00:37. > :00:40.Israeli strike on Iran's nuclear facilities would be stupid. Why did
:00:41. > :00:50.he go so public so quickly, and is there a dangerous gulf between
:00:51. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:23.Israel's political leadership and Meir Dagan, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:23. > :01:29.Thank you very much for receiving me. It's a pleasure. Let's go back
:01:29. > :01:34.one year and start there. He would talking about the idea that Israel
:01:34. > :01:38.could launch a military strike against Iran's nuclear facilities
:01:38. > :01:46.one year ago. You said that would be a stupid idea. Have you changed
:01:46. > :01:51.your mind? First of all - I never used the word "stupid". In was
:01:51. > :02:01.widely reported. In the Hebrew press... I am not responsible for
:02:01. > :02:04.
:02:04. > :02:08.it. The main purpose, I believe the international community - is to
:02:08. > :02:12.prevent Iran from reaching nuclear capability. That is in the interest
:02:12. > :02:16.of everyone, including Israel. We were threatened directly by the
:02:16. > :02:18.Iranians. We are the only country in the world that has been really
:02:19. > :02:25.threatened by another state that we do not even have a common border
:02:25. > :02:30.with. They want to see us disappearing from the earth. If you
:02:30. > :02:33.believe in the threat, why would you use either the word stupid or a
:02:33. > :02:40.word like stupid - definitely a negative word that you used when
:02:40. > :02:49.you were talking about the idea of an immediate Israeli... I don't
:02:49. > :02:52.think they serve the Israeli goals or purposes. Why? First of all, you
:02:52. > :03:00.can't stop a project by a military strike. You are able to delay a
:03:00. > :03:04.project. Secondly, you are going to create a situation that will rally
:03:04. > :03:11.the Iranian public behind the leadership, even though today they
:03:11. > :03:15.are in a very serious economic crisis. Even a political crisis,
:03:15. > :03:24.internally. Thirdly, it will provide them with the justification
:03:24. > :03:27.for going directly to a nuclear military project. One now, at least,
:03:27. > :03:32.for the public - they are presenting that they are doing it
:03:32. > :03:37.for peace purposes. But goodness knows, until recently you had
:03:37. > :03:43.access to all the intelligence that Israel could muster. You believe a
:03:43. > :03:53.strategic decision to cross the threshold in to urbanisation has
:03:53. > :03:57.
:03:57. > :04:02.been taken in Tehran? First of all, I do not know. -- weaponisation. I
:04:02. > :04:06.have no doubt in my mind that they are intending, at the end of the
:04:06. > :04:15.road, to acquire nuclear military capability. If they took such a
:04:15. > :04:20.decision already - I really don't know. The EU don't know? -- you
:04:20. > :04:24.don't know. Israel's defence minister says that even if you
:04:24. > :04:28.don't know the strategic intent, what you do know, inside the
:04:28. > :04:32.intelligence community, it is that more and more of Iran's nuclear
:04:33. > :04:37.facilities are being put underground, deep underground in
:04:37. > :04:47.places where they are difficult to hit. He says that suing Iran will
:04:47. > :04:53.
:04:53. > :05:00.enter a zone of immunity. -- suing -- soon. He said that is why you
:05:00. > :05:05.must enter a strike. First of all, what are the criteria that he has
:05:05. > :05:08.that same no-one will be able to deal with the project. He is
:05:08. > :05:13.operating on intelligence. believe some of the facts on the
:05:13. > :05:17.ground are not really backing that presentation of the Defence
:05:17. > :05:21.Minister. Some of them are deeply covered, but some of them are not.
:05:21. > :05:26.You are suggesting that the defence minister, and perhaps Binyamin
:05:26. > :05:30.Netanyahu, are in some ways be misleading about what the
:05:30. > :05:35.intelligence is telling them. not think they are misleading
:05:35. > :05:41.because, let's say Britain is an example - you have excellent
:05:41. > :05:46.intelligence services. Usually will never be building your intelligence
:05:46. > :05:49.picture based on the assumption that here or there are a politician
:05:49. > :05:57.is presenting something. You are going to make your own assessment
:05:57. > :06:01.and analyse your own situation. I don't think those remarks here and
:06:01. > :06:07.there are really reflecting and encouraging the point of view of
:06:07. > :06:11.different governments. This is what the defence chief said after your
:06:11. > :06:16.high-profile intervention last year - he said "whoever keeps saying
:06:16. > :06:24.later, later in terms of reaching a decision on military intervention,
:06:25. > :06:30.they may find it too late". That is enormous pressure, isn't it? There
:06:30. > :06:35.is a point in him saying that. I can't rule out everything he is
:06:35. > :06:39.saying. I think this is not the right approach about a nuclear
:06:39. > :06:45.project. The main goal is to stop the project - I believe he will
:06:45. > :06:49.have to adapt a different policy for how to deal with this. I
:06:50. > :06:56.believe that you always have to have a military option. Such a
:06:56. > :07:00.military option should not be waived as the first priority. You
:07:00. > :07:07.can organise a great deal of pressure on the Iranian regime by
:07:07. > :07:15.threatening the regime, by imposing serious sanctions, by preventing
:07:15. > :07:22.the proliferation in to Iran. Also by creating a situation where you
:07:22. > :07:26.are encouraging the opposition internally and by presenting the
:07:26. > :07:36.costs that the Iranian regime might be happy if they are going to go
:07:36. > :07:41.further into this project. -- might pay. When you say costs, do you
:07:41. > :07:45.mean the targeted killing of Iranian scientists, for example?
:07:45. > :07:51.am not aiming at this as a cost - by cos I mean the price the state
:07:51. > :07:55.will pay as a result of isolating themselves. As a result of economic
:07:55. > :07:58.pressure, as a result of not solving their basic problems
:07:58. > :08:03.because they are still very much dependent on their connections to
:08:03. > :08:08.other countries. All right then, let's stick with that for a moment,
:08:09. > :08:12.then we might come back to targeted killing. If we stick to the kind of
:08:12. > :08:22.formulas you have outlined... have to be clear on one. Met - I
:08:22. > :08:30.
:08:30. > :08:34.have no intention on dealing with gossip. -- one.... Let's stick with
:08:34. > :08:40.your formula of wood in as much pressure as possible on Iran. We're
:08:40. > :08:47.talking about the next stage of sanctions -- putting as much
:08:47. > :08:51.pressure. You have talk about cutting banking ties with Iran, you
:08:51. > :08:56.have talked about embargoes on shipping to Iran. You say these
:08:56. > :09:00.measures will put meaningful new pressure on Tehran. I suggest that
:09:00. > :09:06.everything we hear from Tehran makes for us believe that would
:09:06. > :09:11.just increase their defiance. one thing, the rhetoric that the
:09:11. > :09:16.regime presents. It has been a completely different story when
:09:16. > :09:22.this regime will have to face the daily problems internally in Iran.
:09:22. > :09:28.This regime is key to the public opinion inside Iran. Those
:09:28. > :09:31.pressures will continue - no doubt the backing of the regime - the
:09:31. > :09:36.backing the regime is receiving from the public, it would lose
:09:36. > :09:43.ground. If they are going to lose ground, I believe it is a vital
:09:43. > :09:48.element in their policy to be supported by the majority of the
:09:48. > :09:52.Iranians. Let's leave aside what might happen inside Iran, I am very
:09:52. > :09:56.aware, as you sit here, that you were the boss of Israel's secret
:09:56. > :10:00.service - you are not a diplomat. What makes you think for a moment
:10:00. > :10:03.that you could get the sort of maximum super sanctions you are
:10:03. > :10:05.talking about through the UN Security Council? The Russians and
:10:05. > :10:11.the Chinese have given no indication whatsoever they are
:10:12. > :10:18.prepared to go down the road you want them to go down. I have a
:10:18. > :10:26.different point of view. I think even though the Iranians receive
:10:26. > :10:29.some level of different approach by the Russians and by the Chinese,
:10:29. > :10:37.eventually, when there is a decision about sanctions, even
:10:37. > :10:39.China and Russia have voted for it. Eventually, they aligned themselves
:10:40. > :10:49.with the international community. I think that even China and Russia
:10:50. > :10:53.understand the threat that might come from Iran. Even though I agree
:10:53. > :10:57.that the rhetoric is confronting against the United States and the
:10:57. > :11:04.West. But on the other hand, they are very practical, they know what
:11:04. > :11:08.is going on in Iran, and in many ways they are adopting the point of
:11:08. > :11:13.view of the international community. When it comes to furthering this
:11:13. > :11:18.process, would you say that Israel and your successor in the security
:11:18. > :11:22.services, and the leadership as a whole, are happy to be guided by
:11:22. > :11:32.American strategy and policy on Iran? Is that a comfortable
:11:32. > :11:32.
:11:32. > :11:37.relationship at the moment? I think Israel always kept policies on
:11:37. > :11:42.issues that are important to our security. To have a close
:11:42. > :11:47.relationship and close ties with the United States and having a deep
:11:47. > :11:54.corporation with the United States is a vital element of our security
:11:54. > :12:00.-- Corporation. I am happy to see the United States supporting us in
:12:00. > :12:07.those efforts to try and stop Iran from reaching nuclear capability.
:12:07. > :12:14.It is rare were ever to countenance a unilateral strike without
:12:14. > :12:18.American support, would that be a fundamental mistake? If Israel.
:12:18. > :12:23.would create a significant problem with the relationship with the
:12:23. > :12:32.United States. I would advise, if I can advise on that - I am no longer
:12:33. > :12:35.in the government, it is not my role, but in many aspects, if we
:12:35. > :12:40.can co-ordinate with the international community,
:12:40. > :12:44.particularly the United States, that is important. Let's return to
:12:44. > :12:49.something I suggested earlier, which is that there has been a
:12:49. > :12:54.policy of targeted assassination of a number of, we believe at least
:12:54. > :13:00.five or six, at Iranian nuclear scientists in the last few years.
:13:00. > :13:06.The Iranians have pointed the finger at the Mossad and Israel as
:13:06. > :13:15.prime responsible agent for these killings. That was when you were
:13:15. > :13:18.still in charge of the Mossad. Believe me, unfortunately, if they
:13:18. > :13:22.were talking about an event in the Falkland Islands, they would
:13:22. > :13:27.probably blame the Mossad. For many events, we have no responsibility
:13:27. > :13:32.and we are not connected. I believe that the Iranians are suffering
:13:32. > :13:36.from a great deal of internal problems and they always have a
:13:36. > :13:41.tendency to blame the Israelis. Let's not forget that in many cases
:13:41. > :13:46.they blame even the British. that is an absolute denial. But you
:13:46. > :13:51.wouldn't deny, would you, that Israel and the Mossad have, over
:13:51. > :13:57.decades, it embraced the idea that targeted killings are justified in
:13:57. > :14:00.Israel's national interest. That is beyond doubt, isn't it? I never
:14:00. > :14:06.said that and I have no intention of dealing with anything that is
:14:06. > :14:11.related to the Mossad. Those periods and those issues are not an
:14:11. > :14:16.issue for discussion from my point of view. Is that the cause there is
:14:16. > :14:21.very much a credo in Israel which says - when you have run the Mossad,
:14:21. > :14:25.one of the most important security jobs in Israel, you have to beat -
:14:26. > :14:29.not just when you are in the job - but when you are out of the job, it
:14:29. > :14:39.extraordinarily careful about what you say and what you reveal about
:14:39. > :14:40.
:14:40. > :14:46.I was leading the Mossad for more than eight years and I have
:14:46. > :14:51.appreciation for the people I serve with. From my point, they do a
:14:51. > :15:00.unique service for the country. I have no intention of doing anything
:15:00. > :15:05.that may endanger the gap to the Tees. -- their activities. Were you
:15:05. > :15:10.hurt on a personal level? The point of criticism that was directed at
:15:10. > :15:18.you after you made that high- profile intervention in the Iranian
:15:19. > :15:24.policy. They were quoting from newspapers. They were saying that
:15:24. > :15:28.you were sabotaging the Israeli democratic institution so soon
:15:28. > :15:36.after doing that job, talking publicly about the Iranian policy
:15:36. > :15:40.as a retired Mossad chief. Maybe I'm mistaken. I believe in the
:15:40. > :15:46.heart and soul of democracy and it's a public debate. I never
:15:46. > :15:51.discuss the operations of the aspect. I will only discuss issues
:15:51. > :15:57.from the point of view of the policy of this row. I do not see
:15:57. > :16:04.that even though I am a private citizen that on not allowed to
:16:04. > :16:09.present my point of view when every politician every newspaper in
:16:09. > :16:18.Israel and everyone in this row is able to present that view. I care
:16:18. > :16:23.for my country and those people that criticise my activities. Even
:16:23. > :16:27.now I have finished in the Mossad, I still care about my country and
:16:27. > :16:32.people. Here in that context, let's quickly look at some other
:16:32. > :16:38.challenges that Israel faces in your own region. But talk about
:16:38. > :16:48.Syria. In the last few weeks, the language from the Syrian government
:16:48. > :16:50.
:16:50. > :16:55.has become much more direct and condemnation of the Mossad. --
:16:55. > :17:04.president and sad. People say he has to go. Do you think that's very
:17:04. > :17:14.wise for Israel? I believe on two aspects. Its moral aspect. I am
:17:14. > :17:16.
:17:16. > :17:23.living not far from the Syrian border. I think as a Jew, whose
:17:23. > :17:29.parents have survived the Holocaust, and sit quietly when somebody is
:17:29. > :17:34.using the might and force of the country to execute its own citizens.
:17:34. > :17:40.It's against my morality. I believe that anyone is able to raise his
:17:40. > :17:45.voice against that and they must do it. That's the moral point.
:17:45. > :17:51.Especially the state of Israel. I am this and that point. But what
:17:51. > :17:56.about politics. Some Israelis are worried that if you end up with a
:17:56. > :18:01.stunning victory against the al- Assad regime you may end up with
:18:01. > :18:08.some neat militants and how kind out on the doorstep. I am not
:18:08. > :18:13.sharing that point. In this case the Iranians will lose the
:18:13. > :18:23.stronghold in the Middle East. They will lose the focal point of their
:18:23. > :18:26.
:18:26. > :18:36.influence in the Middle East. The Syrian regime is supporting the
:18:36. > :18:36.
:18:36. > :18:44.Hezbollah. That's a necessity. If the regime of President al-Assad is
:18:44. > :18:50.to fall, I don't think an Islamic party will take over. But you will
:18:50. > :18:56.see a much more influential rule of the pragmatic Arabic States that
:18:56. > :19:06.may moderate those activities inside Syria. You me in Saudi
:19:06. > :19:10.Arabia and the other Gulf states? Yes. But you are close to the
:19:10. > :19:18.establishment in his row, how worried are you about the security
:19:18. > :19:27.chiefs about the instability in his row, I mean Egypt, in the vast
:19:27. > :19:37.areas that borders Israel? There is a concern for his row. There is a
:19:37. > :19:37.
:19:37. > :19:43.lot of smuggling to Hamas coming through the Sinai. We need to
:19:44. > :19:53.present -- prevent the trading of arms. We don't want the terrorists
:19:54. > :19:54.
:19:54. > :20:01.to come together. There is cause for concern. Given the turmoil in
:20:01. > :20:08.Egypt continuing right now, can you imagine the Egypt and Israeli peace
:20:08. > :20:15.unravelling? Even though I am coming from a long line of profits
:20:15. > :20:25.and prophecies, we have written books about that, I am not a profit.
:20:25. > :20:26.
:20:26. > :20:31.We have a president. He told the if you make any predictions for the
:20:31. > :20:37.future, we don't do that. Nobody will remember after 50 years' what
:20:38. > :20:46.you said. If somebody does remember you will not be around in 50 years.
:20:46. > :20:54.To be serious, on the Egyptian side, the situation in Egypt is of great
:20:55. > :21:00.concern to Israel. There's no problem with the peace agreement in
:21:00. > :21:08.the immediate future. Let's say theoretically that the Muslim
:21:08. > :21:14.Brotherhood wince. Even though it may cause a serious impact and a
:21:14. > :21:21.backlash in the region. In the short-term, the Muslim Brotherhood
:21:21. > :21:25.will be occupied with their own internal problems. I'd like to ask
:21:25. > :21:30.you one last thing bringing you directly back home to Israel. You
:21:31. > :21:38.have voiced support for the fundamental peace deal. You suggest
:21:38. > :21:44.you should pursue dialogue with the Saudi plan returning to the
:21:44. > :21:50.adjustments on both sides. You see that as the route to peace. That's
:21:50. > :21:55.not a path that current government is following. How worried are you
:21:55. > :22:05.about the limbo that Israel and Palestinian peace mechanism has
:22:05. > :22:10.
:22:10. > :22:16.fallen? Many people when you ask who is to blame, we will be blamed.
:22:16. > :22:20.But the Australians will say the Palestinians. I think that
:22:20. > :22:28.eventually at some point it's a necessity for the two communities
:22:28. > :22:33.to reach agreement. Unfortunately. That will be based on the previous
:22:33. > :22:40.agreement? I think that it's been presented by the Prime Minister. I
:22:40. > :22:43.never said it was that 67 border. I said they will be peace. Visual
:22:43. > :22:47.vision include the Israeli Government moving against tens of
:22:47. > :22:50.thousands of Jewish settlers on the occupied land and tell them that
:22:51. > :22:56.these settlements must be closed and that they must move back into
:22:56. > :23:01.his row. They have no future in the occupied territory. TUC any
:23:01. > :23:11.willingness among wit the Israeli leaders to take that difficult
:23:11. > :23:11.
:23:11. > :23:19.decision? I'm not the Israeli government. Our I am asking you for
:23:19. > :23:23.your assessment. Personally I am against moving the settlers. We
:23:23. > :23:26.should arrange a land swap between the Australians and the
:23:27. > :23:36.Palestinians. But that will not save the homes of tens of thousands
:23:36. > :23:42.of Jewish settlers. Everybody knows that. I agree that there's a need
:23:42. > :23:45.for hard decisions by the state of Israel. I believe that any
:23:45. > :23:50.government to sit down seriously with this issue will have to take
:23:50. > :23:55.hard decisions and it will be very painful for the country. It's not
:23:55. > :24:01.easy to move the settlers. Personally I don't think you have