:00:19. > :00:24.With the London Olympics just weeks away, athletes are finishing their
:00:24. > :00:29.preparation. In elite sport, the title of head coach increasingly
:00:29. > :00:34.refers to the specialist hired to get inside the athletes' head to
:00:34. > :00:39.instil winning mentality. My guest today is Dr Stephen Peters, a
:00:39. > :00:49.consultant to the British Olympic cycling team and a highly prized
:00:49. > :00:50.
:00:50. > :01:00.adviser to a host of other sporting names. His winning all in the mind?
:01:00. > :01:20.
:01:20. > :01:25.Dr Steve Peters, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for having me.
:01:25. > :01:28.Is it true to say that instead of training athletes to run and jump
:01:28. > :01:32.and kicked commie you train and had to think? That would be fair.
:01:32. > :01:36.would think an athlete would already know how to think before
:01:36. > :01:39.reaching a pinnacle of their sporting career? I think that's a
:01:39. > :01:42.fair comment. What I would say is that most of the athletes don't
:01:42. > :01:46.realise what is happening inside their heads so they're not sure of
:01:46. > :01:50.the machine they are working with. Coming from a psychiatric point of
:01:50. > :01:54.view what I have done with athletes is to give them some insight into
:01:54. > :01:58.what is inside their head and what they can and can't do with it.
:01:58. > :02:04.Let's be clear about the background. Are you somebody who is in any
:02:04. > :02:10.sense a specialist in sport? Wrong. At all? I think I am a specialist
:02:10. > :02:15.in the human mind -- know. If you want to enter his specialist field
:02:15. > :02:19.like sport, my job is to enter that world and learn about the world.
:02:19. > :02:22.When I first arrived in the elite sport in 2005 I think it was fair
:02:22. > :02:26.to say I didn't have much of an idea, especially about cycling, so
:02:26. > :02:30.I had to learn about that. I work with coaches and other people who
:02:30. > :02:33.can inform me of the new all sources of that particular sport
:02:33. > :02:36.and then understanding the environment that the athlete is in.
:02:36. > :02:40.You can tune into the kind of stresses or beliefs they are likely
:02:40. > :02:44.to encounter. I would like to talk a lot about the stresses they
:02:44. > :02:47.encounter. Is there a basic accountability problem here? We
:02:47. > :02:53.know professional sports people in various different environments -
:02:53. > :02:58.they have a tendency to, and this is often a quote, to ask "how many
:02:58. > :03:02.medals have you won?" before they take advice from anybody. You admit
:03:02. > :03:05.you don't know a lot about sports, is an issue of credibility with
:03:05. > :03:09.those you are trying to advise? don't think so, because I don't
:03:09. > :03:14.make it a secret that time not a sports person as such. I don't have
:03:14. > :03:18.that credibility. I can't walk in and saying "I am an expert in this
:03:18. > :03:22.field", clearly are not. As long as I have an understanding of that
:03:22. > :03:27.field and what the athlete perceives in it. Let me take up
:03:27. > :03:30.with you something that you said not so long ago. You said "when I
:03:30. > :03:35.watch sport it's easy for me to see if somebody is underperforming for
:03:35. > :03:40.psychological reasons". Is that really true? Particularly if you
:03:40. > :03:44.don't find yourself immersed and steeped in those sports? It is a
:03:44. > :03:46.spectrum. We never say an absolute for anything. In my world it is
:03:46. > :03:50.about probabilities and possibilities. Give me some
:03:50. > :03:54.examples. Cycling is your big example at the moment. You're
:03:54. > :03:57.working closely with the British cycling team light it for any
:03:57. > :04:01.medals. When you look at the top cyclists performing and maybe he is
:04:01. > :04:08.not performing at the peak of his form, how can you tell whether that
:04:08. > :04:11.is as a result of mind issues - psychological problems? If, for
:04:11. > :04:15.example, I look at the individual sprint on the track, it is a
:04:15. > :04:19.tactical race, which means I have to beware of what that means
:04:19. > :04:23.tactically. I have learned over the years what the dos and don'ts are.
:04:23. > :04:26.I'm not an expert - we have coaches who are experts and they will in
:04:26. > :04:29.for me and tell me what they need the athlete to do. They will tell
:04:29. > :04:33.me that an athlete has hesitated when there is a split second when
:04:33. > :04:37.they have to go. If I watch this, because I have been with cycling
:04:37. > :04:41.for seven years, you know when someone is hesitating. You can see
:04:41. > :04:45.that and think that that is not the optimum way to perform. When we get
:04:46. > :04:51.the athlete of the back saying "I hesitated, why did I do that and
:04:51. > :04:54.how can I stop doing it?", that is a simple example. Most people, I
:04:54. > :04:57.don't think you need to be a psychiatrist to watch sport and say
:04:57. > :05:04.that somebody did something that was emotionally driven and not
:05:04. > :05:09.optimal. They think "I just need to get my head right". Yes, getting
:05:09. > :05:12.their head writers obviously a big part of it. Here is a crude
:05:12. > :05:17.question - in percentage terms, when one is talking about elite
:05:17. > :05:23.performance, how much of the performers would you a credit to
:05:23. > :05:27.having the right mindset? In rough percentage terms? I can't answer
:05:27. > :05:31.that because it's a very individual - I think the key to this whole
:05:31. > :05:34.conversation is, as a psychiatrist I'm coming at the individual
:05:34. > :05:38.machines. If you want a programme to do a certain action you have to
:05:38. > :05:41.look at the machine in front of you. A human being has a spectrum within
:05:41. > :05:45.the mind. Some people are born naturally very laid-back and others
:05:45. > :05:48.are quite anxious. We work with that machine. We are not all
:05:48. > :05:53.exactly the same, so I cut generically say this is the amount.
:05:53. > :05:56.What I do is say "what you want? What is your belief system around
:05:56. > :06:00.this? How do you think you will work optimally?" and then I will
:06:01. > :06:05.look and see why they can't do that. Also whether it is realistic, what
:06:05. > :06:09.they're asking to do. Interesting you refer to the human machine. In
:06:09. > :06:16.other contexts you have talked a great deal about the inner
:06:16. > :06:20.chimpanzee that we all have inside out that heads. If I understand,
:06:20. > :06:24.that is the reference to the part of our brains that is the most
:06:24. > :06:28.impulsive, emotional and primitive parts of our thinking. You say that
:06:28. > :06:34.is a very dominant part of our brain and that what this successful
:06:34. > :06:39.athlete has to do is learn to manage and control that in a
:06:39. > :06:43.chimpanzee. We manage it - you can't control it, that would be a
:06:43. > :06:47.mistake, to try and control it. Explain what managing it means.
:06:47. > :06:51.What I have invented is not a scientific theory or a fact, it is
:06:51. > :06:55.a model. A model is something to explain to you in very simple terms
:06:55. > :07:00.like sock puppets - let's make it simple. There's the emotional brain
:07:00. > :07:04.with all of these features, it acts like a chimpanzee. You know? It is
:07:04. > :07:07.very emotional, impulsive, aggressive and it doesn't consider
:07:07. > :07:11.consequences. You have got another part which is human, it is inside
:07:11. > :07:14.your control and is a thinking machine that you can control. It
:07:14. > :07:19.says, let the work is out with facts and troops and put it
:07:19. > :07:23.together logically. The problem is, it's in that order. The emotional
:07:23. > :07:28.brain get it first, the thinking brain second. There's a part, OK?
:07:28. > :07:33.This is an automatic pilot. This is what I call the computer. Now, bear
:07:33. > :07:38.with me. Think of them as free brains, emotional, logical,
:07:39. > :07:42.computer. If you see someone on the blocks and his chimpanzee is in
:07:42. > :07:46.action, he is more likely to do the following - it is likely to be
:07:46. > :07:49.saying "this is it, everything is on this race, you've got to get it
:07:50. > :07:53.right". That's not really the right place to be when you have to come
:07:53. > :07:58.up with results and other places. When you come out of the blocks in
:07:58. > :08:01.100 metres you want to be driven by the computer, it needs access, we
:08:01. > :08:05.need to settle the chimpanzee down and the human down and get the
:08:05. > :08:09.computer running. That is a skill. That's something you have to learn
:08:09. > :08:15.and practise. In my work, it's the same as if you went to a gym and
:08:15. > :08:20.you said, I want to get physically fit. What you do is you go to an
:08:20. > :08:24.expert in strength and conditioning and they ask you what you want to
:08:24. > :08:27.achieve, sprinting? Shot put it? This is what we need to do for your
:08:27. > :08:31.muscles, this is the machine, and this is what it will do. They will
:08:31. > :08:36.more literate and do it with you. If somebody says to me "I want to
:08:36. > :08:45.come out of the blocks quickly" I explain the chimpanzee, I explain
:08:45. > :08:51.the human, I explain the computer and tell them - let's learn how to
:08:51. > :08:55.go with the computer. It's a skills. When you have worked with some
:08:55. > :09:00.triple gold-medallist in Beijing, or one of the top cyclists in the
:09:00. > :09:03.world today, do they get it quickly? Are they able to adapt the
:09:03. > :09:07.way they use their brain as a result of conversations with you?
:09:07. > :09:12.The problem of sports people is a lot of them have come in here with
:09:12. > :09:18.fantastic physical abilities and skills and the mental skills are
:09:18. > :09:21.run different scale. Some of them are very talented mentally -- are
:09:21. > :09:26.on a different scale. Some of them don't have these skills and need to
:09:26. > :09:31.be taught. How were barricading the still depends on the individual. It
:09:31. > :09:35.depends on me as well, as a tutor to try to facilitate. Ronnie
:09:35. > :09:39.O'Sullivan is in snooker. He has talked about working with you and
:09:39. > :09:43.he says you turned around. He was at a point in his career way he had
:09:43. > :09:47.had enough of snooker. He didn't want to go into the World
:09:47. > :09:54.Championships anymore or be under the strain he had been under the
:09:54. > :09:57.past. Partly because he couldn't handle not winning. You did
:09:57. > :10:02.turnaround, he played in the championships and came across as a
:10:02. > :10:05.much happier player. How did you do it? There are a number of things I
:10:05. > :10:11.would like to say before I explain that, to set the scene so what has
:10:11. > :10:14.not taken out of context. Went on he came to see me he had beaten --
:10:14. > :10:17.he had won three world champions. At the one to beat my chest, he
:10:17. > :10:21.could have done it without me. If you work on your mental skills like
:10:21. > :10:25.he did, the probability of success rises, it's not a guarantee.
:10:25. > :10:29.seems to me what you're doing with any of these top sportsman is
:10:29. > :10:34.teaching them how to overcome their fear. Particularly their fear of
:10:35. > :10:39.losing. Yes. Because these are habitual winners, but they are also
:10:39. > :10:42.frightened of losing. Again, if we stick to the model - and you
:10:42. > :10:47.remember, it isn't a person fearing that, we have to split the brains
:10:48. > :10:54.up. Ronnie's chimpanzee was saying to him "I'm looking at consequences
:10:54. > :10:57.and what happens if I lose - it defines me if I were in". We need a
:10:57. > :10:59.human being sat there very differently and said to me, I would
:10:59. > :11:02.like to win, that would be pleasurable, but I have other
:11:02. > :11:07.values in my life which I am not sticking to because I chimpanzee is
:11:07. > :11:17.hijacking me. We have two people in talking to. Roddy started to
:11:17. > :11:21.
:11:21. > :11:24.recognise the difference. What he did this time -- Roddy.... Winning
:11:24. > :11:27.his it pleasure and it's my profession, but it doesn't define
:11:28. > :11:35.me and it would upset me to the point that where I feel like is
:11:35. > :11:39.impossible to win a fight -- impossible to live if I don't win.
:11:39. > :11:42.I see some sports people in their sporting arena behaving with a
:11:42. > :11:45.picture of passion that seems to tally with your description of the
:11:45. > :11:48.inner chimpanzee, yet you are telling me that the inner
:11:48. > :11:53.chimpanzee is totally destructive. I never said totally destructive -
:11:53. > :12:01.I never mentioned that. What has it is this - you have a choice. I'm
:12:01. > :12:06.not saying or chimpanzee can't win, I'm not saying that. By saying -- I
:12:06. > :12:10.am saying it's about probability. When people choke in the middle
:12:10. > :12:14.sport, you can almost guarantee what system of the brain they are
:12:14. > :12:19.using. When they going to fight mode and become overly confident,
:12:19. > :12:23.that's how it works, it is likely to suddenly flip into a panic mode
:12:23. > :12:33.or fall out of focus. If you go much more akin to a computer mode,
:12:33. > :12:34.
:12:34. > :12:42.the -- much more into a computer mode, you are more likely to stay
:12:42. > :12:52.there. When I entered sport, I learned about what they call the us
:12:52. > :12:53.
:12:53. > :12:56.-- the zone.... They might be in an aggressive stance, but they are
:12:56. > :13:01.quite calm and collected and they know they can do this. We need to
:13:01. > :13:05.do so on example is of those who are not like that. When BT of the
:13:05. > :13:15.Premier League in football, players like Murray Abdullah telly -- it I
:13:15. > :13:24.
:13:24. > :13:29.am thinking of the Premier League - - Mario Balotelli. When you see
:13:29. > :13:36.them, do you think "I could make them much better players". I don't
:13:36. > :13:40.think that. They are operating in chimpanzee mode. We see those
:13:40. > :13:43.emotions exhibited on the pitch. we assume that, that is an
:13:43. > :13:47.assumption - that system is relatively unstable, but that
:13:47. > :13:50.doesn't mean I should dive in and say, I think you should change your
:13:50. > :13:56.system. What I'm saying is that you need to look at the possibility
:13:56. > :14:06.that that system will let you down at some time. I have worked with a
:14:06. > :14:07.
:14:07. > :14:11.Premier League footballer who worked on that. A Premier League
:14:11. > :14:14.football at whom I cannot name. He collapsed and couldn't get back -
:14:14. > :14:18.once you have collapsed they aren't into the system you can't get back
:14:18. > :14:23.because you realise the fallibility of it. Craig Bellamy was working in
:14:23. > :14:29.chimpanzee mode. He has gone public about this. The reason I originally
:14:29. > :14:32.asked him not to - I ask most of them not to go public, the public
:14:32. > :14:35.have this expectation that once you work with me and you get it right
:14:35. > :14:40.it will always be right and if you get it wrong once, you have failed.
:14:40. > :14:44.Or more to the point, maybe you have failed. I can live with that.
:14:44. > :14:48.What I can say is if they go into that mode and they are in the
:14:48. > :14:53.spotlight, I don't have an all or nothing - what I'm saying it is a
:14:53. > :14:57.skill. When you have a day when you can do something well, there are
:14:57. > :15:00.the days when the skill let you down. That doesn't mean you have
:15:00. > :15:05.failed, it just means on that day you haven't done as well as you
:15:05. > :15:10.could have done. Like me, I have a skill. Sundays I meet athletes and
:15:10. > :15:13.I know I have nailed it. Other days I know I need to go back and do it
:15:13. > :15:16.again because it's not quite right. Let me ask you are somewhat
:15:16. > :15:20.different sort of question which takes you away from your direct
:15:20. > :15:25.daily involvement in professional sport and asks you to look at it
:15:25. > :15:29.from a distance. Would you, as a clinical psychiatrist agree with me
:15:30. > :15:36.that professional sport can be very bad for your mental health? I think
:15:36. > :15:41.that's true for anything. There are peculiar pressures. If I go to
:15:41. > :15:44.other world of being a doctor and ask if there is pressure on
:15:44. > :15:48.accident and emergency doctors, they are different pressures, but
:15:49. > :15:52.it will depend on the individual. We can't be generic here. Some
:15:52. > :15:57.sports people I work with thrive on the so-called pressures. They don't
:15:57. > :16:00.see them as pressures. But also common sense says if you like in
:16:00. > :16:03.the limelight and your value to the rest of society is on how you
:16:03. > :16:13.perform, then there is a pressure to most people. Most people would
:16:13. > :16:19.
:16:19. > :16:23.feel that pressure. It's a heavy Italian volleyball player who wrote
:16:23. > :16:27.powerfully about how he saw his own sport. He said, "Ultimately prefegs
:16:27. > :16:29.fal sports people are a business asset that belongs to somebody When
:16:29. > :16:34.has invested money on them and wants a return on the investment.
:16:34. > :16:38.It doesn't matter how I felt or what I wanted, it doesn't matter if
:16:38. > :16:43.I wasn't physically fit enough to stand up. I had to perform and
:16:43. > :16:47.perform well. There was no other option." He describes pretty well
:16:47. > :16:50.the reality of professional sport for a lot of sportsmen. I am not
:16:50. > :16:54.denying. This I have worked full- time for about seven years in sport
:16:54. > :16:58.and previously some years part-time. Clearly, there are a lot of young
:16:58. > :17:01.people where this is quite damaging. Again, it doesn't need a
:17:01. > :17:04.psychiatrist to say this. When they leave sport at an early age,
:17:04. > :17:09.particularly if they had not succeeded in their eyes by getting
:17:09. > :17:14.an Olympic medal and maybe they get to a semifinal in an event at the
:17:14. > :17:22.Olympics, if we were put in our own professions and we had reached the
:17:22. > :17:26.last 16 in the world we would be alerted. The consensus if they had
:17:26. > :17:29.failed The analysis is first is first and second is nowhere. Yes.
:17:29. > :17:33.With this brutality and belief system, and that is their choice, I
:17:33. > :17:36.can only offer them an alternative where they get Nougat De Montelimar
:17:36. > :17:41.perspective. At the end of the day they are doing their best. They
:17:41. > :17:45.can't do better than this. It is irrational. Isn't it your job to
:17:45. > :17:55.tell coaches and you would be a mind coach working with a physical
:17:55. > :17:55.
:17:55. > :17:59.coach that they are failing their charges. I mean, well -- Holly
:17:59. > :18:04.Aville has just quit trying to get into the British Olympic athlete
:18:04. > :18:08.team because she's admitted she's had anorexia problems for years.
:18:08. > :18:13.They go back to a time when she was 16 and one of the coaches said to
:18:13. > :18:16.her, "Holly, you have done well in this particular tournament but you
:18:16. > :18:22.have to watch your weight." Since then she's tried to starve herself
:18:22. > :18:26.and her bones have gotten thinner and she's had to quit for those
:18:26. > :18:30.reasons. Coaches are are feeling the charges. I don't know what the
:18:30. > :18:34.coach said or why he said it. you think it is an unusual story?
:18:34. > :18:38.don't think it is unusual. Let me finish. We have to get both
:18:38. > :18:41.contexts of what we do. Obviously it is a very sad and I don't know
:18:41. > :18:44.this young lady and obviously somewhere along the line
:18:44. > :18:48.professional help should have been available to her to support her. I
:18:48. > :18:52.don't think we should start blasting the coaches and saying
:18:52. > :18:56.they are sterling. They are doing their best. If a coach comes to me,
:18:56. > :19:00.and it happens a lot with coaches, and they say what is the best way
:19:00. > :19:05.to get the performance out of the athlete? Clearly, most of us don't
:19:05. > :19:09.like being beaten by a stick. That is not rocket science. We like
:19:09. > :19:12.encouragement. We might need a kick up the pants at times, but it is
:19:12. > :19:15.almost better ourselves. I will say to coaches, if you do a certain
:19:15. > :19:20.thing, these are the likelihood of your athlete in this particular
:19:20. > :19:24.case of responding this way. If you do this, this is the likelihood,
:19:24. > :19:28.but to give you a simple example when I started if sport, a coach
:19:28. > :19:33.said to me - I usually get on with the coaches - but I am not
:19:33. > :19:36.perfectly popular because I will speak. They asked me what do we say
:19:37. > :19:40.on the day of competition? It depends. Ask them what they want.
:19:40. > :19:44.Some notes will say can you cope up the words, Steve. Your presence
:19:44. > :19:47.settles me. If they say I want you to hover and come and talk to me at
:19:47. > :19:51.this point, that is when I do. In order, you have to work it out with
:19:51. > :19:55.the athlete and the coach does the same. I am going to stop you there.
:19:55. > :19:59.I am going to stop you because I am very aware that people watching
:19:59. > :20:02.this, listening to this, around the world will perhaps be bringing a
:20:02. > :20:06.different perspective to the table. For example, in China, we know from
:20:06. > :20:10.the book ground of the Beijing Olympics, but the Chinese approach
:20:10. > :20:13.to creating champions was to extract talented kids from their
:20:13. > :20:17.family, as young as 10 years old, to have them live in special
:20:17. > :20:20.environments and see their parents maybe twice a year to instil
:20:20. > :20:23.incredible discipline into those children and basically give them a
:20:23. > :20:27.message which was, "If you win, you will have a great life. Your family
:20:27. > :20:30.will be given great gifts and everything will be rosy. If you do
:20:31. > :20:34.not win, you will be thrown on the scrap heap and life will be
:20:34. > :20:40.miserable." that is a form oar coaching and discipline that you
:20:40. > :20:45.haven't addressed at all, but it worked. It got 51 gold medals. How
:20:45. > :20:51.do you explain that? If I get a gun and put it to someone's head and
:20:51. > :20:55.say go to the gym but damage your back permanently and lift the gun
:20:55. > :20:58.they will lift the waits, but that doesn't make it right. But how --
:20:59. > :21:03.am saying at the beginning, it is about probabilities. All I am
:21:03. > :21:06.saying is happy people are more likely to engage. People who are
:21:06. > :21:10.empowered are more likely to take accountability and responsibility
:21:10. > :21:14.for poem who are suppressed and dictated to. It is a probability.
:21:14. > :21:17.Once you get so severe that they say this is going to affect your
:21:17. > :21:22.entire life, I suppose most people will engage. That doesn't make them
:21:22. > :21:25.happy people. I am saying from my perspective when I came into sport,
:21:25. > :21:29.my job of course in sport is to get these performances, but with anyone
:21:29. > :21:34.I am working with, I am not going to do that. What I am going to do
:21:35. > :21:39.is get someone to be happy within themselves actually saying, "I feel
:21:39. > :21:43.good about where I am." We will move on. The chances are they will
:21:43. > :21:47.pick the waits up and work. It is a very different way of dough it.
:21:47. > :21:50.know your goal working with the British Olympic teams is to get as
:21:51. > :21:54.many goal medals for your people as you can. I wonder do you sit become
:21:54. > :21:58.and think, "You know what, those years ago when I was working in a
:21:58. > :22:03.secure hospital with deeply damaged menly ill people trying to turn
:22:03. > :22:10.their lives around, was that in all honesty more worthwhile than trying
:22:10. > :22:14.to deliver gold medals?" I was working one day in surgery - I am a
:22:15. > :22:20.doctor and you train through a different discipline - obviously it
:22:20. > :22:24.gets quit tedious, but that is for me to say but I never interact with
:22:24. > :22:28.the people. What struck me was you get them better for quality of life,
:22:28. > :22:31.you get them better so they can enjoy life. There is no point in
:22:31. > :22:35.getting someone better and they are miserable. You haven't given them a
:22:35. > :22:37.quality life. At the end of the day most of us would say it is not
:22:37. > :22:41.about being physically and mentally fit, but about the quality of life
:22:41. > :22:44.that you have. It is about happiness. If you start looking at
:22:44. > :22:49.sports people, of course I say to ports people, if a martian came
:22:49. > :22:56.down and said, "What do you do for a living?" "I kick a ball around a
:22:56. > :23:00.fold." They would say, "What use is that?" I would say, "I make people
:23:00. > :23:04.happy for them to win medals or score goals." We watch the Olympics
:23:04. > :23:08.because it makes us feel happy. does it make you happy to reflect
:23:08. > :23:12.that is the way you have taken your life? Absolutely. It does?
:23:12. > :23:16.Absolutely. You don't think of people who are not famous sporting
:23:16. > :23:20.names and how you could have benefited societyed in so many
:23:20. > :23:23.different ways? I am locking at it as a doctor in society. I could go
:23:23. > :23:26.back to dealing with mental illness and mental health, which I have
:23:26. > :23:30.done for a long time. However, when you look at it, we are looking at
:23:30. > :23:35.quality of life, so I did address the question when invited to join
:23:35. > :23:39.the team full-time. I spend 12 months deliberating and thinking
:23:39. > :23:43.can I really justfy this to myself? At the end of the day, yes, you
:23:43. > :23:47.cannot believe how many people come up to me and thank me for going
:23:47. > :23:51.into sport and athletes say I have made a difference. Fan mail come
:23:51. > :23:55.through and say it made their day. You think this is quality of living
:23:55. > :23:58.that sports people are giving us. I would argue it is called call of
:23:58. > :24:08.human living. A final thought because the Olympics in London are
:24:08. > :24:13.only weeks away. I have in my head Baron deKupertan's words it is not
:24:13. > :24:16.the winning that matters, but the taking part. You don't believe
:24:17. > :24:21.that? I saw the Olympic corrode. It is not about the winning, but the
:24:21. > :24:26.struggle. Taking part in the struggle, the effort you make.
:24:26. > :24:31.Absolutely. That is the right moral stands. The chimp says "you are
:24:31. > :24:36.joking, I am out there to win." You have to live with your chimp. One