:00:03. > :00:11.could not fully exercise his duties. Now on BBC News it is time for
:00:11. > :00:13.HARDtalk. Mohammed Morsi has made history by
:00:13. > :00:19.becoming Egypt's first freely elected president, but how much
:00:19. > :00:22.power has he won? The image of tens of thousands of Muslim Brotherhood
:00:22. > :00:28.supporters savouring victory in Tahrir Square can't disguise the
:00:28. > :00:30.fact that Egypt is still governed by a military clique. My guest
:00:30. > :00:36.today is Gehad El-Haddad, an adviser to the Muslim Brotherhood's
:00:36. > :00:38.Freedom and Justice Party. With parliament dissolved, no new
:00:38. > :00:48.constitution written, the generals ring-fencing their powers, has
:00:48. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:20.Gehad El-Haddad, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:20. > :01:23.What we have seen through this presidential election is a deeply
:01:23. > :01:33.divided nation and a President elect who can command the support
:01:33. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:42.of just 25% of eligible voters, is there anything to celebrate here?
:01:42. > :01:50.Yes, of course. The first year of true and genuine democracy in Egypt.
:01:50. > :01:53.Finally, we are starting to deliver change. Do you accept that Mohammed
:01:53. > :01:56.Morsi starts in a very difficult position, not least because 50% of
:01:56. > :01:59.the electorate did not find themselves voting for either of the
:01:59. > :02:02.two candidates, and your party has broken a fundamental promise, your
:02:02. > :02:12.party said you would not seek the presidential office, but your man
:02:12. > :02:17.
:02:17. > :02:27.sits in the presidential office, or about to be. Indeed. That is the
:02:27. > :02:34.most difficult time in Egypt's history. The first ever civil
:02:34. > :02:40.President of Egypt, which goes back to the time of the Pharaohs. You
:02:40. > :02:48.are also right it is a difficult vote that has been achieved. There
:02:48. > :02:52.are a lot of challenges and the road ahead is quite bumpy. You said
:02:52. > :03:02.the other day, we have already seen in the last few days a military
:03:02. > :03:04.
:03:04. > :03:07.coup. Do you stand by those words? Yes. I would add the word, soft.
:03:07. > :03:10.your man is taking the presidential palace in the environment of a
:03:10. > :03:20.country undergoing a soft military coup, can you explain to me how he
:03:20. > :03:24.
:03:24. > :03:30.actually has a meaningful position right now? Certainly. No-one
:03:30. > :03:33.discusses that this was a peaceful revolution in Egypt. In order for
:03:33. > :03:37.you to enact change against the previous governing regime, you have
:03:37. > :03:39.to acquire the legitimacy. I believe that the parliamentary
:03:39. > :03:41.elections and presidential elections have transferred
:03:41. > :03:51.democratic legitimacy to govern to both parliament, the elected
:03:51. > :04:06.
:04:06. > :04:10.parliament, and Mohammed Morsi. The rest will be transferring executive
:04:10. > :04:14.powers. This will be one of the main and first responsibilities for
:04:14. > :04:17.him to discuss with the ruling council. Let's be clear about a few
:04:17. > :04:20.things. Are you saying that the various declarations made by the
:04:20. > :04:23.Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, the declarations of June 16, 17,
:04:23. > :04:26.the dissolution of the parliament, the military taking on expanded
:04:26. > :04:32.powers, they are null and void as far as you are concerned? Yes, we
:04:32. > :04:35.do not regard them as official, legal or constitutional. The
:04:35. > :04:42.majority of political forces and opinion leaders do not regard them
:04:42. > :04:48.as such. But in a sense it does not matter what they think, the
:04:48. > :04:56.parliament no longer exists. It has been dissolved. The issue of the
:04:56. > :04:58.parliament is twofold. There has been a verdict by the
:04:58. > :05:05.constitutional court, the Hosni Mubarak appointed constitutional
:05:05. > :05:13.court. Membership is contested under the constitution. That was
:05:13. > :05:15.the nature of the verdict. One position has been refused by all
:05:15. > :05:25.political parties, we believe we can dismember one third of
:05:25. > :05:28.Parliament and re-run the election based on that one third. There are
:05:28. > :05:38.many solutions to this equation, it does not have to be black and white.
:05:38. > :05:40.
:05:40. > :05:43.It can be grey. You say that, but key figures in your party say if
:05:43. > :05:47.the door to peaceful transition is closed, then that is an invitation
:05:47. > :05:50.to violence. I am struggling to see how there cannot be over the course
:05:50. > :05:59.of the next few days and weeks a confrontation, possibly violent,
:06:00. > :06:08.between your forces and the military government. Thankfully we
:06:08. > :06:15.are past this point. These words were echoed in the context of the
:06:15. > :06:18.possibility of Ahmed Shafiq being announced as president. These words
:06:18. > :06:20.were echoed then because everyone knew, if Ahmed Shafiq had been
:06:20. > :06:30.announced President, he would be the strong-arm President of the
:06:30. > :06:35.
:06:35. > :06:43.people. Thankfully, we have received the right President with
:06:43. > :06:49.legitimacy. We are now operating on the next chapter. With respect, you
:06:49. > :06:59.are missing the fundamental point. Yes, SCAF have recognised the
:06:59. > :07:00.
:07:00. > :07:08.legitimacy, but they have changed the rules of the game. They are
:07:08. > :07:11.going to take all military and foreign policy decisions. They have
:07:11. > :07:16.taken upon themselves legislative and budgetary powers. They have
:07:16. > :07:22.also maintained the right of veto over the constitutional assembly.
:07:22. > :07:31.They can reject the assembly. Every single important item, the military,
:07:31. > :07:35.not your President, is in control. You are taking the declaration of
:07:35. > :07:39.the Supreme Council of Armed Forces for granted. It is quite fragile
:07:39. > :07:48.and does not stand on firm ground. We have many ways of shuffling this
:07:48. > :07:51.back and withdrawing it altogether. The constitutional right that was
:07:51. > :07:54.declared in the referendum in February of last year, meant that
:07:54. > :08:04.no power in Egypt can have the right to declare any constitutional
:08:04. > :08:04.
:08:04. > :08:14.amendment or declaration except through a referendum of the people.
:08:14. > :08:18.
:08:18. > :08:21.To state the obvious, SCAF have the guns and you do not. There is no
:08:21. > :08:24.way you can convince me that Mohammed Morsi is going to be
:08:24. > :08:28.Commander In Chief or could tell the military leadership what to do.
:08:28. > :08:35.No-one expected Mohammed Morsi to reach this far. I think there are a
:08:35. > :08:38.lot of surprises to happen down the road. What do you mean surprises?
:08:39. > :08:42.Egypt was not a carefully planned country. No-one expected the
:08:42. > :08:50.revolution to happen. No-one expected the voices of people to be
:08:50. > :09:00.that strong. No-one expected people to mobilise in the streets two
:09:00. > :09:01.
:09:01. > :09:08.hours after the verdict on Hosni Mubarak. Democracy has arrived in
:09:08. > :09:18.this country. The will of the people will be heard. We will see.
:09:18. > :09:22.
:09:22. > :09:24.We hear Mohammed Morsi is looking at naming names to a first Cabinet.
:09:24. > :09:28.He wants to appoint a Prime Minister, Mohamed ElBaradei has
:09:28. > :09:33.come up, he would be seen as a unifying figure to bring the
:09:33. > :09:38.various forces together. Will he be Prime Minister? It is premature to
:09:38. > :09:44.say now. Many names have been discussed with Mohammed Morsi. He
:09:44. > :09:51.is a unifying figure amongst others in Egypt. We hope to achieve a
:09:51. > :09:58.coalition government. Mostly comprised of independent candidates.
:09:58. > :10:01.We can achieve a meritocracy based on ability to govern. One promise
:10:01. > :10:04.that has been made repeatedly by your movement is justice for the
:10:04. > :10:14.so-called martyrs who lost their lives during the 1.5 years of
:10:14. > :10:15.
:10:15. > :10:18.revolution. That brings me back to your relationship with the military.
:10:18. > :10:20.Are you determined to make sure that those inside the military
:10:20. > :10:23.leadership responsible for the death of hundreds of people over
:10:23. > :10:33.the struggle for democracy in your country, will they be held
:10:33. > :10:34.
:10:34. > :10:41.accountable? Certainly. There are two values to consider. The nature
:10:41. > :10:44.of the crimes committed. We will enact the law to the fullest extent
:10:44. > :10:52.possible. We will provide the necessary evidence to the courts so
:10:52. > :11:02.they can re-evaluate the matters in the proper dimension. The other
:11:02. > :11:07.
:11:07. > :11:10.dimension is that Egypt is in transition. Learning the lessons
:11:10. > :11:12.from different transitions around the world, from Spain, South Africa
:11:12. > :11:14.with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, all of these give very
:11:14. > :11:22.positive implications for transitional justice. We believe
:11:22. > :11:26.that this model hopefully will be presented to the Egyptian people.
:11:26. > :11:28.What is your party going to do about the fact that a few days ago,
:11:28. > :11:31.the Justice Minister, unelected, declared the security forces have
:11:31. > :11:34.got the right to arrest and detain civilians as they see fit, in
:11:34. > :11:44.essence restoring the state of emergency that you only just got
:11:44. > :11:45.
:11:45. > :11:53.rid of. What will you do about that? The new Justice Minister will
:11:53. > :12:00.refuse it. He cannot. He will be able to. It is within the legal
:12:00. > :12:03.rights of the President. It seems to me on every single answer, you
:12:03. > :12:06.are setting your movement on a collision course with the military.
:12:06. > :12:09.It seems bizarre given that yesterday Mohammed Morsi was on
:12:09. > :12:18.television hailing the achievement of the military and saying we want
:12:18. > :12:21.to work with it. We have never closed the door to dialogue and
:12:21. > :12:25.compromise and negotiation. He will be the primary figure dealing with
:12:25. > :12:32.the Supreme Council as the President of Egypt. Everything is
:12:32. > :12:35.on the table. The work of the Muslim Brotherhood, Freedom and
:12:35. > :12:37.Justice Party, the National Front of the coalition, the President
:12:37. > :12:47.elect, are working to achieve a peaceful compromise that does not
:12:47. > :12:50.end in the loss of life or the shed You call it peaceful compromise.
:12:50. > :12:53.The more cynical Egyptian might say that frankly, we know that the
:12:53. > :13:00.Muslim Brotherhood and the armed forces have been in talks for many
:13:00. > :13:03.days and they have done a deal. Mohammed Mursi has agreed that in
:13:03. > :13:05.return for the presidency, he will essentially allow the military to
:13:06. > :13:14.run all security affairs in the country and keep their economic
:13:14. > :13:20.position. That is what this amounts to, isn't? We don't believe in
:13:20. > :13:24.those kinds of conspiracy theories. In reality, those who do not
:13:24. > :13:26.believe in the power of democracy or the power and rights and will of
:13:27. > :13:32.the people, will always come up with these conclusions and somehow,
:13:32. > :13:35.the will of the people was shortcut. The reality is, since the first
:13:35. > :13:39.round of the presidential election, there has only been one meeting and
:13:39. > :13:42.that was between the Speaker of the House and the member of staff, and
:13:42. > :13:44.it was to announce the demands of the revolution and announce the
:13:44. > :13:47.demands, that Parliament still exists, and that the constitutional
:13:47. > :13:57.assembly still continues and a handover to the President would
:13:57. > :14:03.
:14:03. > :14:06.have to go through. If you stick to those demands and you keep your
:14:06. > :14:09.people in the City and Tahrir Square, which is currently ongoing,
:14:09. > :14:12.how long are you prepared to continue the civil disobedience in
:14:12. > :14:22.a peaceful way, before you start to ratchet up the pressure, by perhaps
:14:22. > :14:27.getting some stones thrown and We have not reached civil
:14:27. > :14:30.disobedience yet. We have not reached marches. It can escalate a
:14:31. > :14:35.few levels and still be peaceful and we will make sure that it
:14:35. > :14:38.always remains peaceful. In the history of the Egyptian people,
:14:38. > :14:42.there has never been any clashes or civil wars or confrontation between
:14:42. > :14:51.major forces in the country and we don't expect that to ever happen in
:14:51. > :14:56.Egypt. There can always be compromises, and as long as both
:14:56. > :15:04.sides are open to dialogue, peace must be the way. Let's suppose that
:15:04. > :15:07.your amazing level of optimism is justified. And that the Islamist
:15:07. > :15:14.movement does get the chance to redefine and reshape Egypt in the
:15:14. > :15:23.way that you clearly hope that it will. Do you want Egypt to be an
:15:23. > :15:26.Islamic state? This is a civil state. The fact that we as a party
:15:26. > :15:30.had Islamic reference, is a testament to we are and what
:15:30. > :15:35.standards that we hold ourselves up to. We don't believe in a theocracy
:15:35. > :15:38.or the rule of religion over the civility over of the state. And we
:15:38. > :15:47.do not believe that religious texts hold over the civil laws of the
:15:47. > :15:51.state. All of the laws that we are coming with are nothing more than
:15:51. > :15:56.him an effort in translating how to serve the best interests of the
:15:56. > :16:01.people and they can be objected to and scrutinised and opposed. Let me
:16:01. > :16:07.be more specific. Let's look at the Tunisian model. A clear majority in
:16:07. > :16:09.Tunisia or behind the Islamist party. They took a specific
:16:09. > :16:16.decision not to seek to base legislation primarily on Sharia,
:16:17. > :16:20.Islamic law. They took a decision not to do that. They have defined
:16:20. > :16:27.their nation as a nation which has Islam as its religion, but not an
:16:27. > :16:32.Islamic nation, with Sharia at its core. Are you going to do the same
:16:32. > :16:36.thing? I would not think so. I think that each country and nation
:16:36. > :16:39.has its cultural specificities that adapt to its people and aspirations.
:16:39. > :16:44.At the moment, the second article of the constitution stipulates, and
:16:44. > :16:47.there is a difference between Sharia law and intent. The second
:16:47. > :16:54.article of the constitution says that all laws must be based on
:16:54. > :17:00.Sharia intent, that is the values of Sharia. It is justice, it is
:17:00. > :17:04.rule of law. So, you are not like the leader of Tunisia, you're not
:17:04. > :17:12.going to say what he said, quote - we are not going to use the law to
:17:12. > :17:16.impose religion. You will not say that. Of course not, we will never
:17:16. > :17:19.use the law to impose religion. Religious freedom is one of the
:17:19. > :17:21.fundamental protectors of rights. It might have been jeopardised by
:17:21. > :17:26.courts with tendencies that have been rooted within some
:17:26. > :17:30.Conservative areas. Under the rule of law, it is protected and we will
:17:30. > :17:36.make sure that it will remain protected. Liberty's, freedom of
:17:36. > :17:39.marriage, everything. Why did Mohammed Mursi, President-elect,
:17:39. > :17:45.say in May that there would not be and could not be, a woman assuming
:17:45. > :17:50.the role of president in your country? I would not think that he
:17:50. > :17:52.said that. His presidential programme, as well as his party's
:17:52. > :17:58.presidential programme says that anyone can appoint any position of
:17:58. > :18:02.the state, including the presidency. And as the biggest party in Egypt,
:18:02. > :18:12.we will back that person with all of the resources that we have, be
:18:12. > :18:12.
:18:12. > :18:15.it a President, a man, a Muslim, a woman. You sound very confident.
:18:15. > :18:22.But on CBC television he said, I'm quoting directly, my party believes
:18:22. > :18:24.that a woman should not assume the role of a president'. That is
:18:24. > :18:31.different from what his party's stated. His party may not nominate
:18:31. > :18:34.a woman. But he is ruling a democratic nation. And because of
:18:34. > :18:37.the fact that we have an Islamic reference point, and it is their
:18:37. > :18:45.opinion, as the Islamic scholars, that women do not assume the role
:18:45. > :18:49.of presidency, under the rule of Islam. Until they change their mind,
:18:49. > :18:57.and according to their own circles of thought, we abide by what they
:18:57. > :19:05.come up with. We will work with any woman that can be elected as
:19:06. > :19:11.President for Egypt. That is called sophistry, if I may say so. I am
:19:11. > :19:14.afraid that I do not understand that. It just means a very, very
:19:14. > :19:20.complex argument that is not understood by many people hearing
:19:20. > :19:29.it. It seems that more than 12 million Egyptians in the end to
:19:29. > :19:31.cast their vote for Ahmed Shafiq. Many did not like the guy, but many
:19:31. > :19:34.appear desperately worried that your movement intends to impose
:19:34. > :19:44.Islamic law, Islamic values, upon Egypt in a way which would be
:19:44. > :19:45.
:19:46. > :19:51.detrimental to women, Coptic Christians, and secular liberals.
:19:51. > :19:56.Are you concerned about the numbers who are not with you? I think not,
:19:56. > :20:00.actually. Two reasons, first of all, all of our positions, our ideals
:20:00. > :20:02.and the way we think and what we want to do, is outlined in
:20:02. > :20:09.extremely articulate terms in both the presidential and party
:20:09. > :20:13.programme. We will be held accountable. We clearly make sure
:20:13. > :20:16.that we safeguard all of the rights and personal freedoms of women.
:20:16. > :20:26.There has been a very excruciating media campaign and many have heard
:20:26. > :20:28.
:20:28. > :20:33.of it. They want to demonise the Freedom and Justice Party. Most of
:20:33. > :20:35.that is heresy, or just pure lies and rumours. Those who make the
:20:35. > :20:41.effort to listen to us, hear arguments, have come out
:20:41. > :20:46.differently. And those who have read our programmes, these guys are
:20:46. > :20:49.really talking about something really democratic and genuine.
:20:49. > :20:56.specific points, one on the economy. You have been advising your party
:20:57. > :21:02.on how to get the economy moving. You have said that a key to this is
:21:02. > :21:09.moving this down the state. You have a problem, 30% or 40% of
:21:09. > :21:12.Egypt's economic output is controlled by the military. Are you
:21:12. > :21:17.saying that you will unpick the military's control of the Egyptian
:21:17. > :21:23.economy? The rule here is, the value that is being jeopardised is
:21:24. > :21:30.equal competition in the marketplace. Or any proper of
:21:30. > :21:35.service to be offered. Say for example, the military. If it is a
:21:35. > :21:40.big and a significant competitive edge, then it devalues the market.
:21:40. > :21:42.It basically closes the market down. We believe that there has to be
:21:42. > :21:49.certain rules and conditions that govern the availability of military
:21:49. > :21:52.based services and products within an open economy. Within a free
:21:52. > :21:57.market economy. So that competition can rise, growth can escalate and
:21:57. > :21:59.the output of that can be socially divided across all segments.
:21:59. > :22:06.final point, about Egypt's stance in international affairs,
:22:06. > :22:09.especially when it comes to the peace treaty with Israel. This is
:22:09. > :22:12.what the Arab affairs committee of your own parliament, dominated by
:22:12. > :22:15.your own movement, declared recently - Egypt will never be a
:22:15. > :22:24.friend, partner or alliance with Israel, which we consider to be an
:22:24. > :22:30.enemy. Is that your party's position right now? Yes, Israel is
:22:30. > :22:39.an enemy of human rights, peace and stability within the region. Is it
:22:39. > :22:43.an enemy of Egypt? I stated the three values. It is an enemy of
:22:43. > :22:45.human rights, an enemy of peace, and an enemy of stability. All of
:22:45. > :22:48.these are interests of the Egyptian nation and people within their
:22:48. > :22:58.region. Will President-elect Mohammed Mursi meet with Israeli
:22:58. > :22:58.
:22:58. > :23:01.leaders? Any one that has been elected to any position within the
:23:01. > :23:04.state of Egypt will meet and work with Israeli leaders to make sure
:23:04. > :23:10.that the peaceful process of reconciliation within the region
:23:10. > :23:12.can be re-established and redefined on equal roles. But what we hold
:23:12. > :23:15.here is the injustice has happening within our region, especially
:23:15. > :23:20.within Palestine and the blockade on the Gaza Strip, have to be
:23:20. > :23:23.lifted. We will lobby the international committee on a more
:23:23. > :23:30.positive role in ending the suffering of the people in this
:23:30. > :23:33.region. Israel is deeply worried about what is happening in Egypt.
:23:33. > :23:35.In that light, was it wise for Mohammed Mursi to tell the Iranian
:23:35. > :23:45.news agency that he wanted strengthened and deepened ties with
:23:45. > :23:49.Tehran? I think that you should have checked the source of that,
:23:49. > :23:54.that was an entirely false story. It was made up by an Egyptian news
:23:54. > :23:59.wire. Many international news wires are learning the lesson that not
:23:59. > :24:03.everything said in the official Egyptian news wires are true. Since