:00:14. > :00:18.American exports. For Now on BBC The election of a Muslim
:00:18. > :00:22.Brotherhood candidate as President of Egypt will have an impact, not
:00:22. > :00:27.only on Egypt, but elsewhere in the Middle East. Nowhere more so than
:00:27. > :00:31.in Gaza. There, Hamas, the Palestinian batch of the Muslim
:00:31. > :00:34.Brotherhood has ruled for five years. At loggerheads with the
:00:34. > :00:39.Palestinian authority on the West Bank and viewed by Israel as a
:00:40. > :00:44.terrorist organisation. Will the new dynamics of power in Egypt
:00:44. > :00:50.better serve the cause of peace and reconciliation in the Middle East
:00:50. > :01:00.or mealy exam -- exacerbate tensions? By guest today is the
:01:00. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:21.deputy Foreign Minister for Hamas in Gaza. Ghazi Hamad, welcome to
:01:21. > :01:27.HARDtalk. Is the election of Mohammed Morsi
:01:27. > :01:36.as president of Egypt good for Hamas? I think it is good for all
:01:36. > :01:44.Palestinians. It will be against the occupation, it will be against
:01:44. > :01:48.Israel. It is a win for all Palestinians. Can you spell out why
:01:48. > :01:57.you think Mohammed Morsi is good for you, he has said he will keep
:01:57. > :02:05.the peace with Israel, a state that Hamas does not recognise. In the
:02:05. > :02:15.time of Hosni Mubarak's regime we suffered a lot. There were some
:02:15. > :02:17.
:02:17. > :02:25.restrictions on Gaza. They did not co-operate with the people in Gaza
:02:25. > :02:31.in general. Now we see that there is a democratic regime. There is a
:02:31. > :02:35.new face, a new policy. I think the Egyptian people will enjoy this
:02:35. > :02:42.democracy. We will find more support for the Palestinian
:02:42. > :02:48.question, more support for our struggle. Israel will be more
:02:48. > :02:54.isolated. They lose their biggest friend in the Middle East. It will
:02:54. > :03:00.help the Palestinians to achieve their goals. On what grounds do you
:03:00. > :03:07.say that Israel has lost its ally in the Middle East? Mohammed Morsi
:03:07. > :03:10.has said he is going to respect the treaty with Israel. Many observers,
:03:10. > :03:14.for example Naguib Sawiris, he says even if Mohammed Morsi wanted to
:03:14. > :03:24.tear up the treaty, the military would never allow him to do that in
:03:24. > :03:29.Egypt. I think in the first phase he will say he will accept all the
:03:29. > :03:33.agreements and the treaties. But I think, the ideology and the thought
:03:33. > :03:43.of the Muslim Brotherhood, the new atmosphere in Egypt, I expect a
:03:43. > :03:46.
:03:46. > :03:56.bigger change inside Egypt. The economic aspects, social aspects,
:03:56. > :03:59.
:03:59. > :04:02.it will change the political game. If the Muslim Brotherhood succeed
:04:03. > :04:11.to push Egypt forward in their political and economic aspect I
:04:11. > :04:16.think they will discuss the treaty at Camp David. There will be more
:04:16. > :04:26.support for the Palestinian people. In the last 30 years the foreign
:04:26. > :04:33.policy of Egypt was dead. There was no movement. Other countries like
:04:33. > :04:37.Qatar, they are more active in foreign policy. They play a more
:04:37. > :04:43.important role in the Middle East. I expect Egypt will play a more
:04:43. > :04:47.active role to gather Arabs around the Palestinian question. More
:04:47. > :04:57.sympathy and I think Israel will not find that the gates of Egypt
:04:57. > :04:57.
:04:57. > :05:01.will be open for them as they have been in the past. I can only tell
:05:01. > :05:07.you what Mohammed Morsi himself has said in public and how the Israelis
:05:07. > :05:11.have responded. Perhaps the Israeli press has had a more extreme view
:05:11. > :05:14.of his election, but when you look at what Binyamin Netahyahu has said,
:05:14. > :05:21.he says Israel appreciates the democratic process in Egypt and
:05:21. > :05:24.respects its outcome. Mohammed Morsi has said, I will keep the
:05:24. > :05:32.peace with Israel and work hard to stop the aggression against the
:05:32. > :05:36.Palestinians. When you look at the statements, it does not support
:05:36. > :05:43.what you're saying. It would suggest that Mohammed Morsi sees
:05:43. > :05:51.Israel as a partner he has to work with. I think he will say such
:05:51. > :06:01.statements. From the first moment he cannot change the whole
:06:01. > :06:01.
:06:01. > :06:08.political game. Something is not logical. Israel used the umbrella
:06:08. > :06:15.of Hosni Mubarak's regime for the crimes of Israel. In the 30 years
:06:15. > :06:24.of Hosni Mubarak, Israel attacked Lebanon. They attacked Gaza. They
:06:24. > :06:29.made many changes inside Jerusalem. Hosni Mubarak kept silent. They
:06:29. > :06:33.targeted the Palestinians in Tunisia. Now I think a new
:06:33. > :06:37.political regime in Egypt, it will reflect the will of the Egyptian
:06:37. > :06:40.people. They will not keep silent. From the first moment of the
:06:40. > :06:49.revolution there was a big demonstration in Cairo, they wanted
:06:49. > :06:59.to expel the Israeli ambassador from Egypt. I expect there will be
:06:59. > :07:04.
:07:04. > :07:07.a change in a political game. They will not be someone who keep silent.
:07:07. > :07:11.I must balance with what you have said, of course the Israeli
:07:11. > :07:20.position is consistently that they defend their own people and that
:07:21. > :07:30.they are just responding to attacks against themselves. I want to make
:07:31. > :07:34.
:07:34. > :07:42.that clear. You are also, as is Ismail Haniyeh... This is not true.
:07:42. > :07:46.Israel has committed crimes against the Palestinians everywhere. That
:07:46. > :07:56.is a debate we have had in the past. Israel has been criticised and so
:07:56. > :07:59.
:07:59. > :08:02.on. Just looking at what Gaza wants from the leadership in Egypt that
:08:02. > :08:12.now has a President from the Muslim Brotherhood, Ismail Haniyeh says he
:08:12. > :08:20.
:08:20. > :08:28.is looking to get the Israelis to lift the blockade. Do you expect
:08:28. > :08:31.him to try and get that lifted? Will he succeed? First of all, we
:08:31. > :08:40.know that Mohammed Morsi will be more and more involved with
:08:40. > :08:44.international relations. He will be working to give the fruits of the
:08:44. > :08:51.revolution. Especially in the economy aspect in order to give
:08:51. > :08:55.more prosperity and fight against corruption and barbarity. This is
:08:55. > :09:04.OK for us. We understand this. This does not mean that he will not give
:09:04. > :09:06.attention for his neighbour, Palestine and Gaza Strip. We have
:09:06. > :09:16.suffered from blockade and siege and collective sanctions against
:09:16. > :09:16.
:09:16. > :09:26.Palestinians. I think they can help with fuel, gas, allow to export and
:09:26. > :09:33.
:09:33. > :09:40.import. Egypt can do more and more to support the Palestinian people
:09:41. > :09:50.against the occupation. Just yesterday Binyamin Netahyahu said
:09:51. > :09:52.
:09:52. > :10:02.he will build more settlements... I think that Mohammed Morsi and the
:10:02. > :10:07.new political regime in Egypt will not accept this. You have made that
:10:07. > :10:15.point. Sticking to the border crossing at Rafah, why would anyone
:10:15. > :10:25.want that eased? The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, who
:10:25. > :10:25.
:10:25. > :10:28.are very powerful in Egypt, do not want to be a part of that.
:10:28. > :10:38.Particularly when you have arms being smuggled to Libya through the
:10:38. > :10:43.
:10:43. > :10:46.Rafah crossing. I think Gaza is living in a miserable situation. We
:10:47. > :10:55.need to find some ways in order to bring the food, medicine and
:10:55. > :11:05.building materials for our people. We have suffered for 6-7 years from
:11:05. > :11:12.the blockade. I expect the Egyptians cannot change it. I
:11:12. > :11:16.cannot say it will happen in the first moment of the first months.
:11:16. > :11:22.As I said, the Palestinians expect a lot from our brothers in order to
:11:22. > :11:31.help us and give more support to the Palestinian people. We do not
:11:31. > :11:35.need to smuggle. It should be open 24 hours. We should be open for
:11:35. > :11:40.commercial exchange with the Arab world. This does not mean that Gaza
:11:40. > :11:48.will be part of Egypt. Frankly, Gaza is part of Palestine. It is
:11:49. > :11:52.our homeland. It will not be part of Egypt. This should be clear.
:11:52. > :12:02.Some people think Gaza is open to Egypt, Gaza will turn its fate to
:12:02. > :12:03.
:12:03. > :12:13.Egypt... This is not true. Hamas will not establish an entirety in
:12:13. > :12:16.Gaza. We are interested to succeed in reconciliation and go back to
:12:16. > :12:18.one political regime. You mentioned a reconciliation and wanting one
:12:18. > :12:21.political regime, the Lebanese ambassador said Mohammed Morsi
:12:21. > :12:31.could use his good contacts with Hamas to affect a reconciliation
:12:31. > :12:41.
:12:41. > :12:48.between Palestinian Authority and Hamas. Is he right? I think the new
:12:48. > :12:58.Egyptian regime will play a more active role with Hamas. It's in its
:12:58. > :12:58.
:12:58. > :13:01.interest. Gaza is important for the security of Egypt. They will be
:13:01. > :13:11.very interested in order to bring Hamas together and bring national
:13:11. > :13:11.
:13:11. > :13:16.unity. Maybe this will take more time, but as Palestinians we need
:13:16. > :13:26.to help the Egyptians also. We have to ease this for the Egyptians. We
:13:26. > :13:30.
:13:30. > :13:40.as the Palestinians, I think we have to help them also... You
:13:40. > :13:46.
:13:46. > :13:53.should help them. Under the Doha Accord... You have suspended voter
:13:53. > :14:02.registration in Gaza. People say you are not serious about
:14:02. > :14:05.We look to the reconciliation process as one package. From the
:14:05. > :14:15.first moment, they came to Gaza and the Prime Minister, they opened all
:14:15. > :14:19.
:14:19. > :14:28.of the gates for them. And really, we should show our cooperation with
:14:28. > :14:34.them. But what happened in the West Bank, when they started, they were
:14:34. > :14:40.arresting people in the West Bank and they abused their human rights.
:14:40. > :14:49.And they would arrest people every day. And I think that it should be
:14:49. > :14:54.stopped. Because it will harm and damage the reconciliation process.
:14:54. > :14:57.But Fatah said the opposite. They said that your actions of
:14:57. > :14:59.suspending voter registration in Gaza was unjustifiable and it was
:14:59. > :15:05.going to impede the reconciliation, the first step towards
:15:05. > :15:13.reconciliation between the two of you. Are you going to reverse that
:15:13. > :15:18.decision about voter registration? We have no problem. We agreed on
:15:18. > :15:28.many points. And sometimes we have a lot of concessions, and we want
:15:28. > :15:30.
:15:30. > :15:36.to form a government of professional and independent people.
:15:36. > :15:40.But I think that we need to build a bridge between amass and Qatar.
:15:40. > :15:46.Here in Gaza, I think that the government and Hamas also, it is
:15:46. > :15:49.really interested to support the reconciliation process. We have no
:15:49. > :15:57.problem. We have no problem, in order to support the reconciliation
:15:57. > :16:00.process. We have signed many agreements. Now, if you come to
:16:00. > :16:09.Gaza, you will not see that members are humiliated or arrested because
:16:09. > :16:19.of their political background. This is not accepted by us. I have
:16:19. > :16:20.
:16:20. > :16:25.spoken to some figures. Their procedures and actions against
:16:25. > :16:27.those in the West Bank. So you are saying that Fatah has somehow
:16:27. > :16:30.manipulated conditions to suit themselves and that it is targeting
:16:30. > :16:36.Hamas supporters on the West Bank and that is why you have suspended
:16:36. > :16:39.cooperation on the voter registration? So, what will it take
:16:39. > :16:47.for you to go back so that people can say the Palestinian actions are
:16:47. > :16:50.at last reconciling? We want to see something, but it is not explicit.
:16:50. > :16:58.We want to see no violation, no arresting in the West Bank, no
:16:58. > :17:00.punishment of people there. This is what we need. This is in order to
:17:00. > :17:05.stop all of the procedures and actions against the members of
:17:05. > :17:11.Hamas on the West Bank which is daily behaviour against them. This
:17:11. > :17:20.is unbelievable. We have some saying that there are 10, 5, 17, 18
:17:20. > :17:30.people arrested in the West Bank. Let me ask you this. How united is
:17:30. > :17:30.
:17:30. > :17:33.Hamas itself? Hamas is united. it united? Because we are now
:17:33. > :17:36.hearing that there is a kind of moderate party and there is a more
:17:36. > :17:39.hardline faction. The Prime Minister, he is more hardline than
:17:39. > :17:49.the political leader of Hamas, who has been in exile in Damascus for
:17:49. > :17:51.
:17:51. > :17:54.many years now. It is a joke. It is a big organisation. There are no
:17:54. > :17:59.differences? Hamas is a big organisation. You'll find that some
:17:59. > :18:02.people are hard, some people are moderate, some are on the soft line.
:18:02. > :18:07.Hamas is a big organisation and not a small group. We will find
:18:07. > :18:13.differences. But even at the leadership - can I just ask you
:18:13. > :18:17.this? Even differences at the top of the leadership? I do not see
:18:17. > :18:20.that there is a split inside Hamas. Can I give you an example? The
:18:20. > :18:23.Prime Minister was quoted in the Jerusalem Post on 13th February,
:18:23. > :18:26.saying that the gun is the only solution to the Zionist regime and
:18:26. > :18:36.this contrast with Khaled Mashal saying that Hamas should focus on
:18:36. > :18:36.
:18:36. > :18:42.popular resistance which represents the power of the people. They had
:18:42. > :18:46.two very different messages from two leaders, wouldn't you say?
:18:47. > :18:51.can explain this. You will find that Hamas in general, when they
:18:51. > :19:00.decide to take a decision, there is a collective leadership. I cannot
:19:00. > :19:09.say that his decision is theirs only. We have a Sharia Council. And
:19:09. > :19:12.we have some institutions inside Hamas. So I think that we have the
:19:12. > :19:21.ability to take a decision. We have a collective leadership that give
:19:21. > :19:24.us a guarantee that everything is OK. There are differences. He said
:19:24. > :19:29.that there are differences at the top of the Hamas leadership, surely
:19:29. > :19:38.you accept that. There are some differences, that is right. I
:19:38. > :19:41.cannot deny that. Do you think that President Morsi in Egypt will
:19:41. > :19:43.strengthen the hand of the moderates, then, because he will be
:19:43. > :19:49.urging them to be more reconciliatory, isn't that one
:19:49. > :19:55.impact? I think you should not play this game. Because I believe that,
:19:55. > :20:01.but some are some well-known leaders. Let them deal with Egypt,
:20:01. > :20:05.Qatar, and Syria, and different countries. There was no
:20:05. > :20:08.differentiation between a soft line and hardline. And Mr Mursi will
:20:08. > :20:13.deal with these softline and the hardline. This is something that is
:20:13. > :20:18.not realistic. I think that Hamas will deal with Egypt and other
:20:18. > :20:28.countries with one organisation, one language. There are some
:20:28. > :20:28.
:20:28. > :20:31.differences inside the organisation. But after that, we had one decision.
:20:32. > :20:36.You mentioned Syria there. Of course, Syria has been a huge
:20:36. > :20:40.backlog of Hamas. There were headquarters in Damascus, they
:20:40. > :20:43.recently moved to Doha. Other Hamas leaders have said that they come
:20:43. > :20:50.out and support the Arab Spring, in Revolution, in Cairo earlier this
:20:50. > :20:58.year. The Syrian revolution is an Arab Revolution, leaders have been
:20:58. > :21:01.quoted as saying. It will have a big impact on you, because you will
:21:01. > :21:07.lose a source of money, arms, and with Syria comes Iran, its biggest
:21:07. > :21:16.ally, who will also lose the backing of Iran. Isn't that going
:21:16. > :21:25.to be a problem for you? Maybe the situation is very complicated. As
:21:25. > :21:33.Hamas, we are not in the pocket of any political regime. But you need
:21:33. > :21:37.their money and their support. You will fill the gap from Syria?
:21:37. > :21:43.get money from different cultures, from Syria and Iran. From South
:21:43. > :21:48.Asia, from many countries. From political parties. I think this
:21:48. > :21:52.does not mean that we have political money. We have our own
:21:52. > :21:55.decision. We had our own calculations. So, when we decide d
:21:55. > :22:03.that the situation in Egypt is against our principles and against
:22:03. > :22:06.our values, we left Damascus. In 20 years, in that time, the Syrian
:22:06. > :22:09.regime, they gave full facilities for us and supported us everywhere
:22:09. > :22:19.and gave us all kinds of support, but we did not want this kind of
:22:19. > :22:24.confrontation within the regime and we told him that we will leave.
:22:24. > :22:28.you staying in Doha? Are you going to stay in Doha or will you go in
:22:28. > :22:32.somewhere else? There is speculation that you may relocate
:22:32. > :22:37.to Jordan. We're interested in establishing a relationship with
:22:37. > :22:47.different countries. And Jordan invited Mr Mashal and he met the
:22:47. > :22:47.
:22:47. > :22:52.king. And I think that Jordan is an important country. Maybe they made
:22:52. > :22:59.a mistake in the past, when they expelled Hamas. And maybe some
:22:59. > :23:02.people, they destroyed the image of our organisation. And we are not
:23:02. > :23:09.interested in dealing or interfering in the issue of another
:23:09. > :23:15.country. Or any country. So, I suspect that the relationship with
:23:15. > :23:18.Jordan will be better in the future. I must ask you finally and briefly,
:23:18. > :23:20.a completely different point, but now we have this investigation by
:23:20. > :23:23.Al-Jazeera, saying that Yasser Arafat, who died eight years ago,
:23:23. > :23:26.the Palestinian leader, it may have been poised and because traces of
:23:26. > :23:33.poison were found on his close and the Palestinian Authority say that
:23:33. > :23:39.there should be an investigation. Do you think that his body should
:23:39. > :23:42.be seen? Should there be an investigation? I think that Al-
:23:42. > :23:52.Jazeera made a very great and special discovery in order to
:23:52. > :24:04.
:24:04. > :24:14.clarify that. So you want an investigation? Yes, we want the
:24:14. > :24:19.
:24:19. > :24:24.investigation to go on and for it to be done by those people.. And we