:00:11. > :00:15.That's the latest BBC News. Now it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:15. > :00:19.He is the wonder of's President Paul Kagame in danger of losing the
:00:19. > :00:24.international community's goodwill for a country still haunted by the
:00:24. > :00:29.ghost of genocide? -- yes Rwanda's. He is accused of being unrealistic
:00:29. > :00:34.about prosp about prospthe economic transformation and, most damagingly,
:00:34. > :00:38.a recent United Nations will -- report claims the government is
:00:38. > :00:42.breaking UN sanctions by backing rebels in the neighbouring
:00:42. > :00:47.Democratic Republic of Congo. My guests today on hard-fought is
:00:47. > :00:51.President Paul Kagame of Rwanda. Can he reclaim his reputation as
:00:51. > :01:01.the bold and visionary leader or is he destined to go down as another
:01:01. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:20.African strongman who failed to President Paul Kagame, welcome to
:01:20. > :01:25.HARDtalk. Thank you. You have been credited with trying to unite a
:01:25. > :01:29.divided country, make it more prosperous after the genocide of
:01:29. > :01:34.1994. But truly you are in danger of squandering the international
:01:34. > :01:42.community's goodwill, aren't you? No. It does not make sense. There
:01:42. > :01:50.is nothing to that suggests underground that there is any
:01:50. > :01:55.danger as to what Rwanda looks like all the present -- present
:01:55. > :02:00.government looks like. The facts speak for themselves. Are you aware
:02:00. > :02:05.that you are a deeply polarising person? That your admirers think
:02:05. > :02:13.very highly of you and yet your critics are increasingly becoming
:02:13. > :02:21.more and more sceptical? You divide opinion. I start with where things
:02:21. > :02:25.must start first, that is in Rwanda. What the people think about what we
:02:25. > :02:31.are doing in their lives, how we are building the country. This is
:02:31. > :02:36.the starting point. For the critics, they have been there from the start.
:02:36. > :02:40.We do not acknowledge the progress that is being made in the country.
:02:40. > :02:46.-- they do not. For them, the ask to
:02:46. > :02:51.ask 10 or 15 years ago. But for the real people who live real life on
:02:51. > :02:55.the ground, the millions of Rwanda has, the Sea Life getting better
:02:55. > :03:00.everywhere. But why do you think that you excite that kind of
:03:00. > :03:05.passion? -- they see life. That makes somebody like Tony Blair
:03:05. > :03:08.hailed you as a bold and visionary leader and says that you are a good
:03:08. > :03:16.friend and yet there are those who are... Who give a completely
:03:16. > :03:21.different point of view? Tony Blair, many other friends that have helped
:03:21. > :03:25.the country to be where it is today. They are genuine people who think -
:03:25. > :03:29.- think through issues and question different things and come up with a
:03:29. > :03:35.good conclusion. Tony Blair has been advising you on how to become
:03:35. > :03:39.less a dependent, for example? That's right. It is polarising in
:03:39. > :03:47.the sense that there are people who have been connected with Rwanda's
:03:47. > :03:51.problems for the beginning, in history for many years. These
:03:51. > :03:59.problems related to genocide and many others and they cannot
:03:59. > :04:02.inherently Rwanda. People have been part of the problem and they have
:04:02. > :04:10.always seemed Rwanda with different eyes. What do you mean people from
:04:10. > :04:17.the outside? Former colonial powers? When I say from outside, I
:04:17. > :04:21.mean from beyond even the colonial times. They have not allowed Rwanda
:04:21. > :04:26.and or Africans to deal with their own problems. That is a debate
:04:26. > :04:31.which is certainly worth having and we have had it in various guises.
:04:31. > :04:41.But I want to put you not prisons from outside but criticisms from
:04:41. > :04:41.
:04:41. > :04:46.inside Rwanda. -- not criticisms from outside. People who tried to
:04:46. > :04:52.stop those people read perpetrating violence. People who know you well
:04:52. > :05:00.and say Paul Kagame is autocratic. Can I give you some names? You can
:05:00. > :05:06.give names but... Can I just say what it is that I am talking about?
:05:06. > :05:10.Even if it is 20 names, I am talking about millions of people in
:05:10. > :05:14.Rwanda. If you want to believe what 10 or 15 people are talking about,
:05:14. > :05:19.and you don't believe what millions of people in Rwanda are saying,
:05:19. > :05:23.that is where the problem is. Look at the crisis all over the world.
:05:23. > :05:28.Whichever country we talk about. Developed, developing and otherwise.
:05:28. > :05:37.They have crisis and scandals going on with leaders, with everybody. If
:05:37. > :05:41.you are going to take a country as it is and say, "this country,
:05:41. > :05:46.because of the leader, this is how we must look at the Country", then
:05:46. > :05:52.you will get things wrong. I still put it to you and as I said nobody
:05:52. > :05:56.doubts that you have brought great economic success to Rwanda. And if
:05:56. > :06:02.you look at various indicators, you have tackled education, malaria,
:06:02. > :06:07.that kind of thing. But politically they are strong criticisms about
:06:07. > :06:14.you. In the 57 page Rwanda briefing from 20th August 10, you are
:06:14. > :06:18.described as a hardline, one party, secretive police state. -- 20th
:06:18. > :06:27.August 10. And that people have been held hostage deal repressive
:06:27. > :06:32.rule. Who said that? The 4G -- the former chief of staff, a number of
:06:32. > :06:41.people, the former prosecutor- general, a former ambassador to
:06:41. > :06:47.Washington from Rwanda. These are all people, your former allies.
:06:47. > :06:52.take you back to this problem. In this country, where we are sitting,
:06:52. > :06:57.you read the newspapers every day and they talk about different
:06:57. > :07:00.things about business people, different things. You would not
:07:00. > :07:04.turn around and say this country is in Innis because of these
:07:04. > :07:11.individuals. But what do you say to these individuals? I am saying this
:07:11. > :07:18.to you. There is not a single country in this world, is what RIM
:07:18. > :07:24.pudding to you, or a single leader who is in a public office that has
:07:24. > :07:29.not come under attack or criticism. -- what I am putting to you. That
:07:29. > :07:33.is a valid point. But the way you chose to say, I believe this one.
:07:33. > :07:39.was putting it to you and want your response. I have heard this
:07:39. > :07:43.hundreds of times. The focus is very much on Rwanda. For us, we are
:07:43. > :07:47.comfortable with what we are doing and what we have in terms of
:07:47. > :07:51.progress. These are just a few people who are critical of your
:07:51. > :07:55.leadership? The facts are there for you deceive. It depends on what you
:07:55. > :08:00.want to believe. You either believe what certain people say and you
:08:00. > :08:06.don't want to see their own lack of accountability and issues relating
:08:06. > :08:11.to their own his conduct and you don't want... I was not portraying
:08:11. > :08:16.him as a model democrat at all. that is what you... I was not doing
:08:16. > :08:20.that. When you raise it like that, that is what somebody will think.
:08:20. > :08:25.was not suggesting that he is a model democrat but he has been shot
:08:25. > :08:30.at in Johannesburg and has renewed his allegation... Why don't you
:08:30. > :08:34.want the case... There is a trial to go -- going on. Do you want me
:08:34. > :08:39.to talk about the case? He is renewing the allegation that you
:08:39. > :08:48.were involved in that shooting. What do I expecting to say? I am
:08:48. > :08:55.just asking for your response. What made them turn their opinion
:08:55. > :08:59.against you? These were your allies. What is it? My people are more
:08:59. > :09:04.important move. The people of the country. There are close to 12
:09:04. > :09:08.million people. You chose to single out somebody on the street
:09:08. > :09:14.spreading rumours or creating stories. All you choose to believe
:09:14. > :09:19.the millions of people of Rwanda. It is your call. It is not one or
:09:19. > :09:25.the other, Mr President. We live in the same world so don't treat
:09:25. > :09:30.Rwanda given the from the rest of the world. We live in the same
:09:30. > :09:37.world where there is no situation that people will agree 100%. If you
:09:38. > :09:41.are talking about Rwanda, just look at it in the same context as you
:09:41. > :09:47.see the rest of the world. But you have dismissed the criticism from
:09:47. > :09:55.your former allies. But one of your biggest donors, the US, the
:09:55. > :10:00.ambassador to the UN has applauded your economic vitality, which she
:10:00. > :10:04.says has moved the country forward. And yet the political culture, she
:10:04. > :10:09.says, in Rwanda remains comparatively closed. When a key
:10:09. > :10:14.ally like the US says that, you have to take notice, don't you?
:10:14. > :10:20.US or any other country do not manage Rwanda. It is managed by the
:10:20. > :10:24.people of Rwanda. Listen to them. But they are one of your biggest
:10:24. > :10:32.bilateral aid donors. It does not determine how we live our lives.
:10:32. > :10:41.What do you say to her? If you are talking about her, look a bit in
:10:41. > :10:46.history. Look at the failures of these friends. One day you want to
:10:46. > :10:51.believe what they say, I am sure even if you don't want to, this is
:10:51. > :10:57.what I am telling you. People of Rwanda live their lives and
:10:57. > :11:00.determine how they live their lives. I am supposed to ensure that.
:11:00. > :11:09.not a politically closed country because you have got people like
:11:09. > :11:14.the Opposition Leader who is on trial because she... I am just
:11:14. > :11:21.putting it to you. Let's talk about things that matter to the lives
:11:21. > :11:27.of... Dissidents remain silent out of fear in Rwanda. What is your
:11:27. > :11:33.response? My response is that maybe if you take all of your time for
:11:33. > :11:38.most of your time asking everybody in this world, all of these
:11:38. > :11:44.problems. We do put these points and criticisms two leaders and
:11:44. > :11:51.other politicians. I was not being cynical. I was giving you a chance
:11:51. > :11:55.to rebut these allegations. We have explained this so-called
:11:55. > :11:59.allegations. I am glad you are even pudding it that way. You are
:11:59. > :12:03.talking about all of the progress that people in Rwanda and are
:12:03. > :12:13.making and then you put it back and bring in one individuals saying
:12:13. > :12:13.
:12:13. > :12:23.this. Even out of context. People are in the courts to answer the
:12:23. > :12:32.charges against them. What is wrong with that? She is not punished
:12:32. > :12:36.without hearing her. There are also others. She is being found guilty
:12:36. > :12:42.of genocide, promoting genocide, and violating the law that
:12:42. > :12:46.prohibits genocide. She said that the innocent majority who died
:12:46. > :12:55.alongside the Tutsis in the genocide... But you are asking me
:12:55. > :13:00.every case that has been handled by the court in Rwanda. It does not
:13:00. > :13:04.look good when you have... To who? It does not look good to you who
:13:04. > :13:10.does not understand problems of Rwanda. But it is making good
:13:10. > :13:14.progress. The people are holding each other and holding themselves
:13:14. > :13:18.accountable. We will talk about the economy in a while. As I said, you
:13:18. > :13:26.have been totally applauded for your efforts for including
:13:26. > :13:30.agriculture and output. Undoubtedly, everybody says it is a big economic
:13:30. > :13:35.success story. Fantastic rate of growth. But it is the politics I
:13:36. > :13:41.was trying to pick you up on. the politics were wrong, the
:13:41. > :13:45.Agriculture would not thrive. Agriculture involves the people of
:13:45. > :13:50.Rwanda. They are doing their agriculture, feeding themselves. It
:13:50. > :13:55.is the politics behind it driving it. You are facing huge allegations
:13:55. > :13:58.now, renewed once, about your activities or alleged activities in
:13:58. > :14:04.the neighbouring Democratic Republic of Congo. The UN report
:14:04. > :14:12.earlier this year says that the Rwandan government is backing a
:14:12. > :14:15.rebel movement in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Led by a former
:14:15. > :14:22.Congolese general. What is your response to these very serious
:14:22. > :14:32.allegations? My response is that we are not connected at all with the
:14:32. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:39.cause of the uprising by M23. We do not support it. We don't know what
:14:39. > :14:43.they are about or what they want. We are not involved at all and it
:14:43. > :14:47.would not make sense because, for us, our relationship with the Congo
:14:47. > :14:54.before this happened was very good. We were working together to
:14:54. > :14:57.eliminate the problem that has existed between the two countries.
:14:57. > :15:02.Some people are not happy about working with the Congolese so I
:15:02. > :15:06.tried to undermine that. Then, all of a sudden, because of the
:15:06. > :15:11.problems with the Congo, this issue came up. It is an internal problem
:15:11. > :15:19.of Congo and the faded thereof in terms of the covenants and how to
:15:19. > :15:24.resolve their own problems that has created this is shook. -- this
:15:24. > :15:28.issue. But this group of experts who put together this report and in
:15:28. > :15:31.their briefing to the UN sanctions Committee on 13th June, they say
:15:31. > :15:38.they gathered evidence of arms embargo and sanctions raging
:15:38. > :15:42.violations committed by the Rwandan government. They say these
:15:42. > :15:52.violations included financial and arms support to armed rebels in the
:15:52. > :15:57.
:15:57. > :16:07.Let me clarify. The so-called report is attached to the interim
:16:07. > :16:14.
:16:14. > :16:24.report by so-called experts... Second, if you look at what is said,
:16:24. > :16:31.
:16:31. > :16:37.it tells you... The facts are there. Names of people that were from
:16:37. > :16:42.Rwanda that were put there. They would they want to invent
:16:42. > :16:48.information? Let me tell you the facts and you can make your own
:16:48. > :16:55.conclusion. If you look at the report it has been based on what
:16:55. > :17:02.the soldiers have said in the Congo. The military in the Congo. The
:17:02. > :17:08.intelligence people. The so-called defectors. This is what they are
:17:08. > :17:18.talking about. I'm telling you for a fact that people have been
:17:18. > :17:19.
:17:19. > :17:24.accused have not been asked at all. Do you want these experts, your
:17:24. > :17:30.Foreign Minister says they should come to Rwanda to carry out their
:17:30. > :17:37.investigation. Had he invited them? Before I do that I am questioning
:17:37. > :17:43.the expertise of the investigation. How do you pick someone on the
:17:43. > :17:49.street and then invite them? The UN Secretary General has spoken to you
:17:49. > :17:54.on the telephone and also the president of the Democratic
:17:54. > :18:04.Republic of Congo... That is true. Is he making this statement on a
:18:04. > :18:07.
:18:07. > :18:14.useless report? He says he has got serious concerns. How does that
:18:14. > :18:21.relate to the report? He says he is very concerned. He has serious
:18:21. > :18:31.concerns about the external support that the... He is concerned about
:18:31. > :18:34.
:18:34. > :18:44.the various goings on. He talked about the report. Did he ask, is
:18:44. > :18:51.
:18:51. > :18:58.Rwanda supporting... His people lied to him. Why would they make
:18:58. > :19:08.all this stuff up? I have told you the facts. Then you can major own
:19:08. > :19:18.conclusion. -- make urine. The report is written just asking one
:19:18. > :19:28.
:19:28. > :19:38.side. -- make your own. Direct assistance of the M23, yes or no?
:19:38. > :19:45.
:19:45. > :19:54.That is what is Britain. It is not true. -- written. Recruited at --
:19:54. > :20:00.youth. The provision of weapons and ammunition? They are getting a
:20:00. > :20:08.mission from where they are fighting. Let me tell you the main
:20:08. > :20:17.problem in this Congo's situation is ignorance and arrogance of
:20:17. > :20:24.people not listening. -- ammunition. The ignorance of people saying
:20:24. > :20:31.someone is giving them arms. have said no to all of those. You
:20:31. > :20:36.say the UN report is baseless. You are being urged to meet the
:20:36. > :20:43.President of the Democratic Republic of Congo. Let me tell you
:20:43. > :20:53.this ignorance that is taking place. The Secretary General, he did not
:20:53. > :20:56.
:20:56. > :21:01.know that we talked... Will you meet him face to face? Your Foreign
:21:01. > :21:11.Minister has said there is an agreement. You have not decided
:21:11. > :21:14.
:21:14. > :21:21.whether or not to meet? One thing I do not like. The fighting going on
:21:21. > :21:29.is not between Rwanda and the other. It is between one group that is
:21:29. > :21:34.Congolese and another group that is Congolese. The other thing about
:21:34. > :21:40.accusations is that you cannot substantiate. Could this support be
:21:40. > :21:50.going on without your knowledge? There is no support that is going
:21:50. > :21:59.on. There is no support that will go on. No renegade Rwanda
:21:59. > :22:04.military... We do not have those. You have talked about making Rwanda
:22:04. > :22:14.the Singapore of Africa and so on. In reality have a long way to go
:22:14. > :22:15.
:22:15. > :22:20.before you can be described as an African lion. 6% growth. How are
:22:20. > :22:29.you going to be able to do this with 85% of people living on the
:22:29. > :22:39.land? You touched on the dark side of things. If the country is
:22:39. > :22:43.
:22:43. > :22:48.feeding itself and exporting food to the rest of the region. If you
:22:48. > :22:56.have children going to school for the first nine years, now extended
:22:56. > :23:00.to 12 years, this is not a bad start. If you have health insurance
:23:00. > :23:10.covering 94% of the population this is not a bad start. If you have
:23:10. > :23:13.
:23:14. > :23:23.women in power and girl children going to school, it is not a bad
:23:24. > :23:24.
:23:24. > :23:31.start. Among the three competitive economies in Africa it is not a bad
:23:31. > :23:37.start. Rwanda 50 years since it became independent from Belgium,
:23:37. > :23:43.what will your legacy be? You are just a bit older than your country.
:23:43. > :23:50.Will you go down as a bold and visionary leader? I cannot go down
:23:50. > :23:59.on anything. I can just go up. My country is going up. I will be