:00:04. > :00:14.American country has become the main transit centre for drug
:00:14. > :00:27.
:00:27. > :00:30.traffickers transporting cocaine to the United States.
:00:30. > :00:36.HARDtalk is on the road in Honduras, a country being torn apart by crime
:00:36. > :00:43.and violence, much of it fuelled by the drug trade. As much as 75% of
:00:43. > :00:50.the cocaine in the United States comes through Honduras. It comes by
:00:50. > :00:54.air and by sea. The US government is now pushing Honduras to crack
:00:54. > :01:04.down on the narcotics traffickers. In this country, which is driven by
:01:04. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:15.corruption, it is a war on drugs going to prove counter-productive?
:01:15. > :01:24.Honduras is mosquito-coast. The most remote, sparsely populated
:01:24. > :01:28.corner of the country. The only way in is by aeroplane or by boat.
:01:28. > :01:37.Across this expanse of marsh and Forest, the indigenous people speak
:01:37. > :01:40.their own language and create a living fishing and farming. Here
:01:40. > :01:50.there is one activity that promises a way out of poverty. Smuggling
:01:50. > :01:53.
:01:53. > :02:03.cocaine. (Latin music). This is the biggest town in the region. The
:02:03. > :02:04.
:02:04. > :02:07.Caribbean heat hangs heavy here, so, too, does the taint of drugs. In
:02:07. > :02:14.recent years, the streets have seen shootings, murders and vendettas
:02:14. > :02:20.between rival traffickers. The waters off the coast are on the
:02:20. > :02:27.smuggling route from Colombia and Venezuela. I joined a Honduran Navy
:02:27. > :02:35.patrol tasked with disrupting the flow of cocaine. Within minutes,
:02:35. > :02:39.agents bought in a fishing boat heading for Puerto lempira. The
:02:39. > :02:47.forces get training from American advisers and they get you s
:02:47. > :02:57.intelligence support. -- US. But the odds are still stacked against
:02:57. > :02:58.
:02:58. > :03:07.them. This search turned up nothing, but tons of cocaine is getting
:03:07. > :03:17.through every month. Colonel, how sophisticated are the narcotics
:03:17. > :03:17.
:03:17. > :03:58.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:03:58. > :04:02.traffickers that you are dealing Colonel, as you described to me,
:04:02. > :04:06.the submarines and sophisticated navigation systems that these
:04:06. > :04:16.narcotics traffickers have, it strikes me that they have more
:04:16. > :04:46.
:04:46. > :04:50.resources than you do? (speaks Penetrating Honduras' drug-
:04:50. > :04:54.trafficking gangs is not easy. We journeyed to a remote
:04:54. > :05:04.rehabilitation centre which can offer a way out for some of the
:05:04. > :05:11.country's most hardened criminals. The young men here have turned
:05:11. > :05:17.their backs on their gains. Many face death of their return to their
:05:17. > :05:27.old neighbourhoods. In his grave, we found an assortment of users,
:05:27. > :05:29.
:05:29. > :05:33.dealers, middlemen and murderers. - - in this group. One young man, we
:05:33. > :05:40.call him my lawn, agreed to talk. I would like you to tell me when you
:05:40. > :05:44.first got involved in the drugs business? TRANSLATION: After first
:05:44. > :05:49.being a recruit I became a gang member, then I became second-in-
:05:49. > :05:56.command. Later, I gained control of the gang. Him games, the one who is
:05:56. > :06:00.control is the one who is most aggressive -- in gangs. I became
:06:00. > :06:05.unscrupulous, I had no love for anyone, I even hated myself.
:06:05. > :06:10.old were you when you first killed someone? TRANSLATION: 12. We are
:06:10. > :06:15.trained to kill? How did you know, as a young boy, how to go about the
:06:15. > :06:20.business of murdering people? TRANSLATION: It was an instinct
:06:20. > :06:24.that a work within me. The rage, the hatred I felt within led me to
:06:24. > :06:29.doing that. Then, like everything else, it became an addiction. Then
:06:29. > :06:34.it became easy. After being a gang leader here I joined a criminal
:06:34. > :06:39.grouping Mexico. I was trained to kill, and later that also became
:06:39. > :06:44.normal to me. Many times I had to do horrendous things. There was a
:06:44. > :06:53.lot of money, yes, a lot of money, and good women. Good cars, good
:06:53. > :06:57.hotels. You were part of the MS 13 network. You work in the United
:06:57. > :07:04.States, he went to Mexico to be trained to be a killer. You work in
:07:04. > :07:14.Honduras. All of this time, were you aware that there were people at
:07:14. > :07:21.the top of this network who were using you to help them create this
:07:21. > :07:25.narcotics trafficking network right across the Americas? TRANSLATION:
:07:25. > :07:30.Yes, of course. I knew there were people using me, but like everyone
:07:30. > :07:34.in gangs, everyone in the trafficking movement, we all know
:07:34. > :07:38.we are being used, but we all want to climb to a higher position to be
:07:38. > :07:42.like them. Regardless of who you must kill, it doesn't matter, even
:07:43. > :07:46.if you have to kill someone from your own family. It becomes an
:07:47. > :07:54.obsession, trying to get to that position. Trying to be someone of a
:07:54. > :08:01.higher rank. Someone who gives the orders instead of receiving them.
:08:01. > :08:08.How easy is it going to be for the Honduran authorities, working with
:08:08. > :08:11.the US, to beat the narcotics traffickers? TRANSLATION: It will
:08:11. > :08:15.be hard because there are people involved inside the government
:08:15. > :08:20.itself. If nothing is done within the government it will be useless.
:08:20. > :08:27.They themselves are the promoters. They cover the big criminals. They
:08:27. > :08:33.are the big criminals. You make it sound like the drugs traffickers
:08:33. > :08:37.have almost brought up everything that matters inside Honduras, that
:08:37. > :08:43.they almost alone the country. Is that how you feel about it?
:08:44. > :08:47.TRANSLATION: Of course. They have taken control of everything. Narco
:08:47. > :08:53.trafficking is everywhere. In Congress, in politics, even in
:08:53. > :09:00.church. This is how it is, it's involved in everything. Narcotics
:09:00. > :09:06.trafficking has taken control of our country in an extreme way.
:09:06. > :09:13.There have been recent successes in Honduras' war on the traffickers.
:09:13. > :09:21.Drug busts are trumpeted in the local media. But the amount of
:09:21. > :09:31.cocaine passing through the country is still rising. The traffickers
:09:31. > :09:38.
:09:38. > :09:42.continue to bite off or a cure for their enemies. -- buy off or kill.
:09:42. > :09:47.This is the new head of the Drug trafficking agency. His predecessor
:09:47. > :09:51.was killed. Welcome to HARDtalk. In the conflict between the drug
:09:51. > :10:01.traffickers and the Honduran state, would you except that the drugs
:10:01. > :10:17.
:10:17. > :10:19.traffickers are winning? TRANSLATION: (speaks Spanish).
:10:19. > :10:23.TRANSLATION: (speaks Spanish). me tell you something that a
:10:23. > :10:29.narcotics trafficker told to meet a couple of days ago. I ask him if he
:10:29. > :10:35.thought the Honduran government will ever take on and defeat their
:10:35. > :10:40.gains and the traffickers. And he laughed, he said to me "the
:10:40. > :10:49.traffickers have so much money, they have so much money and so much
:10:49. > :10:59.power they can buy whoever and whatever they want." if that's true,
:10:59. > :11:29.
:11:29. > :11:36.how can you beat them? (speaks Americans. They are putting
:11:36. > :11:41.enormous pressure now on you and your government to do more to stop
:11:41. > :11:51.the cocaine as it moves up from South America. Do you believe the
:11:51. > :12:01.Americans themselves could be doing much more in terms of helping you?
:12:01. > :12:26.
:12:26. > :12:35.consumption, the demand side of this equation. Right now they are
:12:35. > :12:38.very focused on the supply side, and stopping the supply. I know
:12:38. > :12:43.there are increasing numbers of armed US drug enforcement agent on
:12:43. > :12:49.your territory. They have some operating bases. They are
:12:49. > :12:59.conducting joint operations with arms on your territory. Some people
:12:59. > :13:06.
:13:06. > :13:16.worry it's becoming a little like a new era of US imperialism. (SPEAKS
:13:16. > :13:16.
:13:16. > :14:16.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:14:16. > :14:26.into the tiny settlement. Its airstrip is no more than a clearing
:14:26. > :14:30.
:14:30. > :14:37.This neglected village has come to symbolise a new phase in the war on
:14:37. > :14:42.drugs. The river is the main means of transport in this remote corner
:14:42. > :14:49.off the coast line. You find farmers, fishermen and Traders
:14:49. > :14:57.going up and down the waters by day and by night. The problem is - so
:14:57. > :15:01.too do the market traffickers. Two months ago, Honduran forces
:15:01. > :15:07.launched a night-time raids on suspected traffickers on this
:15:07. > :15:11.stretch of river. They did not act alone. US military helicopters and
:15:11. > :15:17.personnel were heavily involved in a joint operation which targeted a
:15:17. > :15:27.river boat believe to have picked up a stash of drugs from a remote
:15:27. > :15:29.
:15:29. > :15:34.airstrip. What happened next is the To get an eye witness account, I
:15:34. > :15:40.paid a visit to the home of a lady who was on the boat which came
:15:40. > :15:46.under heavy fire. She took a bullet through her and remains seriously
:15:46. > :15:51.ill. Her son-in-law and two pregnant woman were killed. She
:15:51. > :15:54.insists all were innocent victims. They were not drugs or because,
:15:54. > :16:04.simply because she's coming back from a trip down river.
:16:04. > :16:04.
:16:04. > :17:40.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:17:40. > :17:46.Tell me what happened on the night The Americans have said they
:17:46. > :17:56.believe that there was gunfire aimed at their agents and they
:17:56. > :18:06.believe there was a boat that was trafficking drugs on the river that
:18:06. > :18:06.
:18:06. > :18:48.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:18:48. > :18:52.night -- and their agents. Do you For decades, the US military has
:18:52. > :18:57.maintained a presence in Honduras. Hundreds of American troops are
:18:57. > :19:06.stationed at this base. Their focus used to be the war against
:19:06. > :19:11.communism, in neighbouring Nicaragua was. Now it is the war on
:19:11. > :19:16.drugs. The Americans are using sophisticates in supposed to
:19:16. > :19:26.intercept the trafficking flights into eastern Honduras. This bussed
:19:26. > :19:26.
:19:26. > :19:29.on local television left one man dead and three captured -- asked.
:19:29. > :19:35.In the last month he was struck enforcement agents have killed
:19:35. > :19:39.suspected traffickers in an operation similar to walk this one
:19:39. > :19:45.-- American. The crackdown is intense fine but given the recent
:19:45. > :19:50.history in the country, endemic corruption and persistent
:19:50. > :19:53.allegations of human rights abuses, as Washington have a reliable
:19:53. > :20:00.partner? Ambassador, will come to HARDtalk.
:20:00. > :20:06.Thank you. When you deal with the June government do you believe you
:20:06. > :20:13.can trust it? -- Honduran. In any government you have different parts
:20:13. > :20:20.of a government. If you talk about the President, the way you
:20:20. > :20:26.articulates his goals, many programmes we have seen him put in
:20:26. > :20:35.place, are things that we see as good for the country and also of
:20:35. > :20:40.mutual interest for the US. If you ask me about the police force, it
:20:40. > :20:46.was the one to mince who uncovered how ugly the problems were in the
:20:46. > :20:53.police force -- the people of Honduras. What we have done his
:20:53. > :20:58.whole parts of the police force and the units out side it to clean up.
:20:58. > :21:04.Here you have said how hot it is to imagine people to trust the police?
:21:04. > :21:13.-- how hard. I have said it is extremely important for the police
:21:13. > :21:23.force to be trustful and are to -- and to be honest and one to
:21:23. > :21:27.investigate crimes. You have a country in which the institutions
:21:27. > :21:33.of government have not worked as well as they should have. They are
:21:33. > :21:37.fragile. As well as supporting the police, the US is giving extra
:21:37. > :21:44.support to the Honduran military and to bring its own up on Asians
:21:44. > :21:54.in the field. I must talk to you about one thing -- its own agents.
:21:54. > :21:54.
:21:54. > :22:02.In a small remote village where we visited, US and Honduran on agents
:22:02. > :22:07.fired up on a boat on the river, which is now clear was full of
:22:08. > :22:14.civilians. Is the US now prepared to say that was a terrible error?
:22:14. > :22:20.Those are not the facts as we know them. What we understand and was
:22:20. > :22:27.that a plane with drugs, almost half a time of drugs, came in and
:22:27. > :22:36.landed, unloaded, but the drugs on a boat to go down the river.
:22:36. > :22:43.this boat. Let me get there. They push the boat into the river. The
:22:43. > :22:47.authorities would after it to seize the drugs. -- went after it. They
:22:47. > :22:52.were fired upon and they were returning the FA. Let me finish.
:22:52. > :23:00.Having said that, they is a Honduran government investigation
:23:00. > :23:04.under way as well as well as the US Drug Enforcement Agency
:23:04. > :23:11.investigation. -- the fire. have your age has not spoken to the
:23:11. > :23:18.lady we spoke to who was on the boat -- your investigation? They
:23:18. > :23:23.are two investigations going on right now. The response that -- the
:23:23. > :23:29.responsibility we feel we have is to understand all the facts of the
:23:29. > :23:35.case. If you have mentioned somebody who was not in too cute,
:23:35. > :23:40.by the government or by us, that is information I can take back -- not
:23:40. > :23:50.been too few. Until we know all the facts of the case it is
:23:50. > :23:58.inappropriate to comment -- not interviewed. They have suggested
:23:58. > :24:02.there was no wrongdoing. The context is that last year there
:24:02. > :24:07.were more than 100 planes come into the country with drugs. The
:24:07. > :24:12.government's highest roti is to prevent drugs from coming into the
:24:13. > :24:22.country. -- priority. Injuries and death are not the norm. Thank you
:24:23. > :24:25.
:24:25. > :24:35.for being on HARDtalk. My pleasure. Honduras's geography is a curse.