:00:01. > :00:04.Honduras. In this second of three programmes Stephen Sackur reports
:00:04. > :00:14.from San Pedro Sula, the city with the world's highest murder rate.
:00:14. > :00:24.
:00:24. > :00:29.This programme contains disturbing images and flashing lights.
:00:29. > :00:39.HARDtalk is on the road in San Pedro Sula in Honduras. The city
:00:39. > :00:40.
:00:40. > :00:43.were the highest murder rate in the world. -- with the. Up here it
:00:43. > :00:49.looks calm, but down there are neighbourhoods in the grip of
:00:49. > :00:53.violent gangs dedicated to drug trafficking and extortion. This
:00:53. > :00:59.place is an example of what happens when the rules of civil society are
:00:59. > :01:09.undermined by criminality and corruption. It is a broken city,
:01:09. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:17.can it be fixed? In San Pedro Sula the police are fighting a losing
:01:17. > :01:24.battle against violent crime. I joined them on a night patrol in
:01:24. > :01:30.the most lawless city in the world. In Honduras there is a murder every
:01:30. > :01:40.74 minutes. Many of them happen here. This is a city where fear it
:01:40. > :01:47.drives people off the streets after dark. The police, 800 of them in a
:01:47. > :01:53.city of 1.2 million, are completely overwhelmed. The murder count has
:01:54. > :02:01.just gone up by one. Dumped by a House, the body of a young man. His
:02:01. > :02:05.hands and feet bound. His body riddled with bullets. Another gang
:02:05. > :02:15.made out in a neighbourhood where no-one saw anything, heard anything,
:02:15. > :02:15.
:02:15. > :03:13.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds
:03:14. > :03:20.knows anything. As foreign San Pedro Sula is a sprawling city
:03:20. > :03:25.with 50 routes in and out. Police efforts to slow the traffic of
:03:25. > :03:30.drugs and guns is by their own admission, ineffective. They blamed
:03:30. > :03:40.the lack of resources. Many Honduran say police are part of the
:03:40. > :04:19.
:04:19. > :04:23.Do you ever think to yourself that San Pedro Sula is Honduras's
:04:23. > :04:29.business hard, 20 years ago it was one of Central America's more
:04:29. > :04:35.prosperous cities. Then the gangs moved in. Now when you walk through
:04:35. > :04:41.the city centre by day, there is a veneer of normality. Look carefully
:04:41. > :04:47.and you see that almost every business in the city relies on
:04:47. > :04:50.private security. Armed guards massively outnumbered the police.
:04:50. > :05:00.That is little comfort for those who cannot afford a personal
:05:00. > :05:02.
:05:02. > :05:08.protection. The city's taxi-drivers have become easy prey for the local
:05:08. > :05:13.mafia. They have threatened every taxi company and every driver.
:05:13. > :05:21.Either they pay a war tax on their weekly income or they can expect a
:05:21. > :05:26.bullet in the head. Not surprisingly, this taxi-driver in
:05:26. > :05:36.his 30s, with a jobless wife and a son to support, would only talk to
:05:36. > :06:10.
:06:10. > :06:20.What would happen to you if you told the gangs that you were no
:06:20. > :06:44.
:06:44. > :06:54.What about the police? The police are supposed to protect this city
:06:54. > :07:08.
:07:08. > :07:14.and your communities. Do They do Month after month, year after
:07:14. > :07:23.blood-soaked Year of the chilling hearer increases. Some of it is
:07:23. > :07:29.turf warfare between the two main gangs. The relentless violence has
:07:29. > :07:39.infected the whole of society. Muggings, sex crimes and domestic
:07:39. > :07:42.
:07:42. > :07:48.disputes involve guns and murderous violence. The city's anguish is
:07:48. > :07:55.feasible. Families of murder victims mounted a recent White
:07:55. > :07:59.March Against violence. The taboo against speaking out for fear of
:07:59. > :08:05.reprisals is breaking down. Grieving relatives rarely get the
:08:05. > :08:15.chance to testify in court in the absence of justice, some chose to
:08:15. > :08:15.
:08:15. > :10:09.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds
:10:09. > :10:19.The people of San Pedro Sula long ago abandoned the hope that their
:10:19. > :10:21.
:10:22. > :10:29.government would deliver them from evil. The Church has become a moral
:10:30. > :10:34.liable refuge in this violent city. -- more reliable. The faithful
:10:34. > :10:38.clinging to one of the few institutions not hollowed out by a
:10:38. > :10:41.criminality and corruption. In San Pedro Sula the Catholic Church
:10:41. > :10:48.authorities tried to establish a dialogue with the leaders of the
:10:48. > :10:58.local gangs. But it has not silenced the guns. The sickness in
:10:58. > :10:58.
:10:58. > :11:05.this committee runs deep. -- community. Your city, San Pedro
:11:05. > :11:15.Sula, has become the most violent city in Honduras, maybe in the
:11:15. > :11:15.
:11:15. > :12:22.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds
:12:22. > :12:28.You have become famous throughout this country as a man who has tried
:12:28. > :12:34.to establish a dialogue with some of the gang members. You have
:12:34. > :12:44.reached out to them. You have spoken to them. How do you see
:12:44. > :13:18.
:13:18. > :13:27.these people? Do you see them as You have served this community for
:13:27. > :13:35.a long time. I just wonder if you yourself are beginning to doubt the
:13:35. > :13:45.future of this community? Whether you doubt that God is really in
:13:45. > :13:45.
:13:45. > :14:35.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 58 seconds
:14:35. > :14:44.Tulsa President is symptomatic of one juror's failing state -- San
:14:45. > :14:50.Pedro Sula. -- Honduras. It has had five different governments in the
:14:50. > :14:58.last six months. The latest escorted me into the prisoner
:14:58. > :15:06.compound for a brief glimpse inside. The feel is chaotic, no-one is
:15:06. > :15:11.visibly in charge. 2,200 men are penned inside these ramshackle jail
:15:11. > :15:21.which was built for 700. Half of the inmates are on remand, not
:15:21. > :15:25.
:15:25. > :15:30.convicted of any crimes. The prison has repeatedly made headlines for
:15:30. > :15:37.its violence and corruption. Two riots earlier this year left more
:15:37. > :15:46.than a dozen prisoners dead. Drugs are inescapable inside, as are the
:15:46. > :15:56.gangs. I was allowed to meet one convicted murderer from eight gang,
:15:56. > :15:56.
:15:56. > :16:04.he calls himself termite. Termite, I wanted to explain to me why, as a
:16:05. > :16:14.child, you got involved in this game and, why did you join this
:16:14. > :16:20.game? -- gang up. A needed to look after my family. I joined the game
:16:20. > :16:26.for an easy life. It is a cause for which I would give my life. It
:16:26. > :16:32.motivated me to join it. I would be part of it until I die. What was
:16:32. > :16:40.your initiation? What did she do to prove that you were commit Ted to
:16:40. > :16:45.the game? I killed guys from an enemy gang. I do everything from
:16:45. > :16:51.the heart. Even if I give my own life. I was afraid because at the
:16:51. > :16:56.time I was a boy. It had to be done. Otherwise, I would not have shown
:16:56. > :17:03.them what I am made of. Did you have feelings of regret? No, not at
:17:03. > :17:07.all. Had he been in the game make your life different? In the game
:17:07. > :17:12.and you can have everything. You can have everything when you want
:17:12. > :17:17.it. You need to decide you want it and go and get it. Beery strength
:17:17. > :17:25.in numbers, everyone who is with us does better in every way, whether
:17:25. > :17:33.they are boys or man. Gun violence has spread like an infection in San
:17:33. > :17:38.Pedro Sula. The hospital is struggling to cope. While we were
:17:38. > :17:44.there, a young man was brought in with gunshot wounds to the legs.
:17:44. > :17:50.Another game shooting we were told. With every new victim comes a
:17:50. > :17:58.question, why on earth has the Honduran state failed completely in
:17:58. > :18:04.its duty to protect its citizens? Welcome to HARDtalk. I have come
:18:04. > :18:12.back from spending quite a number of days in San Pedro Sula, and what
:18:12. > :18:18.I found is a city that is been torn apart by violence and by crime. How
:18:18. > :18:28.do you explain your Government's failure to deliver any form of
:18:28. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:52.security to the people of San Pedro I understand that you have set up
:18:52. > :18:57.commissions and investigations, I wonder what your messages to the
:18:57. > :19:01.people we met in the -- to the people in the town of San Pedro
:19:01. > :19:07.Sula, who describes terrible crimes committed to their family. One
:19:07. > :19:12.woman described how her brother was tortured and shot dead because he
:19:12. > :19:17.and said the wrong part of town. Another woman had her husband shot
:19:17. > :19:20.dead by an off-duty policeman. Neither of them denounced the
:19:20. > :19:25.crimes to the police, they were convinced the police would not do
:19:25. > :19:35.anything to help them. What is your message to these women, let alone
:19:35. > :19:57.
:19:57. > :20:02.With respect, minister, the evidence is that the police
:20:02. > :20:07.themselves are amongst the worst criminals. To quote one taxi driver
:20:07. > :20:11.in San Pedro Sula, he said, I do not report the fact that they
:20:11. > :20:17.extort money to the police. Otherwise, the police will extort
:20:17. > :20:27.money from me, they are as bad as the gangs. Do you believe that
:20:27. > :20:44.
:20:44. > :20:51.there are many criminals in your Human rights groups believe that
:20:51. > :20:57.since the coup of 2009, there have been more than 300 people killed
:20:57. > :21:02.for political reasons, including trade union activists, Land Reform
:21:02. > :21:08.Act of theirs and in the last three years, more than 20 journalists.
:21:08. > :21:18.Are you prepared to say to me now that you accept that agents acting
:21:18. > :21:23.
:21:23. > :21:29.for the state are responsible for those killings? -- land reform
:21:29. > :21:36.activists. Do you think that agents acting for the Starr ate were
:21:36. > :21:43.responsible for those killings? -- for the state. How does it help to
:21:43. > :21:50.persuade the public got your seriousness when the government
:21:50. > :21:58.appoints a new police chief, a man who a decade ago is based very
:21:58. > :22:08.serious internal police allegations -- faced. Including allegations of
:22:08. > :22:34.
:22:34. > :22:41.murder and being an active member Last year, minister, you said that
:22:41. > :22:51.maybe 1,000 police officers out of a total of 14,500 were corrupt and
:22:51. > :23:13.
:23:13. > :23:23.would have to go. Do you accept You're going to give every police
:23:23. > :23:24.
:23:24. > :23:32.officer or a lie detector test and a drug test? A final question,
:23:32. > :23:42.minister, a personal question. Would you say that you and your
:23:42. > :24:11.
:24:11. > :24:16.Minister, thank you for being on HARDtalk. The end of a rain-soaked
:24:16. > :24:23.police patrol in San Pedro Sula or, they told me it had been a quiet
:24:24. > :24:27.Snipes. Just three murders were added to the city's heavy toll. The
:24:27. > :24:32.Honduran government now promises a purge of the police and a crackdown
:24:32. > :24:40.on crime. It will be a long time before the city emerges from the