:00:03. > :00:13.Stephen Sackur examines the crisis in the country's politics and
:00:13. > :00:28.
:00:28. > :00:33.HARDtalk is on the road in Honduras, one of the poorest, the most
:00:33. > :00:37.unequal and the most violent countries in Central America.
:00:37. > :00:43.Endemic corruption, drugs trafficking and a recent military
:00:43. > :00:49.coup all have contributed to a crisis of political legitimacy here.
:00:49. > :00:53.A century ago, this place was called a banana republic because of
:00:54. > :00:58.the dominance of huge American fruit companies. Now it's ingreat
:00:58. > :01:08.danger of becoming a failed state - - in great danger of becoming a
:01:08. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:15.failed state. So, who can save Honduras's capital is a city of
:01:15. > :01:24.hills. Some of Central America's poorest
:01:24. > :01:28.people have priceless views. The area is home to some 500 families,
:01:28. > :01:34.more than half the adults here are jobless.
:01:34. > :01:38.The seat of Honduras' national government is just 20 minutes'
:01:38. > :01:44.drive away. And as far as this person is concerned, it might as
:01:44. > :01:50.well be in another world. She looks after a family of six in her one-
:01:50. > :01:55.room shack. I just wonder, when you look at your own kids and your
:01:55. > :02:05.grandchildren, whether you worry for their future, the way Honduras
:02:05. > :02:29.
:02:29. > :02:34.It's a tight-knit community. Residents are proud that the street
:02:34. > :02:39.gangs which have taken over swathes of the area have so far been kept
:02:39. > :02:43.out of their neighbourhood. But that doesn't mean people here
:02:43. > :02:49.are safe. Drug abuse and crime have spread through the Honduran capital
:02:49. > :02:57.like a virilent epidemic. And no- one in the town believes the state
:02:57. > :03:02.offers any form of protection. Not even this man, who works for
:03:02. > :03:12.the government's parks department, and certainly not this 15-year-old,
:03:12. > :03:20.
:03:20. > :03:26.who's quit school and can't find a Right now, do you have any faith
:03:26. > :03:36.that the politicianness this country really have -- politicians
:03:36. > :03:56.
:03:56. > :04:05.in this country really have the Honduras isn't just poor, it's
:04:05. > :04:13.poorly governed. The most recent crisis of political legitimacy
:04:14. > :04:20.erupted in 2009. The military toppled the populous
:04:20. > :04:24.President. For Hondurans with bitter memories of repressive
:04:25. > :04:29.military rule, a generation ago, the return of the generals was
:04:29. > :04:37.enough to prompt mass protest on the streets.
:04:37. > :04:44.For a short time, revolution was in the air. But then came the post-
:04:44. > :04:49.coup election of this man. He's a Conservative.
:04:49. > :04:58.Quickly, he was given President Obama's seal of approval. Stability
:04:58. > :05:02.apparently restored for those not looking too closely.
:05:02. > :05:11.How stable is a country where independent reporting can lead to a
:05:11. > :05:16.Protesters recently took to the streets demanding better protection
:05:16. > :05:26.for the country's journalists. More than 20 have been murdered since
:05:26. > :05:54.
:05:54. > :06:02.Radio HRN is the most popular news station in the country. Two months
:06:02. > :06:12.ago, HRN made unwanted headlines itself., -- their most popular
:06:12. > :06:40.
:06:40. > :06:45.presenter was kidnapped and I get the sense that a real fear,
:06:45. > :06:51.not just amongst many journalists in this country now, but, frankly,
:06:51. > :07:01.right across this society. Do you think Honduras is being damaged by
:07:01. > :07:23.
:07:23. > :07:29.Journalism may be dangerous, but campaigning for peasant land rights
:07:29. > :07:37.is worse. More than 40 activists have been killed in three years of
:07:37. > :07:42.land disputes centred on the valley in northern Honduras.
:07:42. > :07:47.The peasant farmers are fighting a losing battle with a handful of big
:07:47. > :07:57.landowners, who have expanded their agri businesses with the support of
:07:57. > :08:03.
:08:03. > :08:08.the hondian state. The activists recently journeyed to
:08:08. > :08:13.the capital in an effort to voice their protest direct to government.
:08:13. > :08:17.But theirs is a cause which has few friends in the corridors of power.
:08:17. > :08:23.You sort of wonder why there isn't a greater sense of popular anger,
:08:23. > :08:28.more signs of people power, in this country, which faces such a grave
:08:28. > :08:32.political, social and economic crisis. Maybe it's because the
:08:32. > :08:37.Honduran security forces are all around, ready to pounce if there is
:08:37. > :08:41.any sign of trouble. And maybe also it's because there's a weary sense
:08:41. > :08:46.of resignation that the problems in this country are simply too big to
:08:46. > :08:50.fix. So, in reality, what's happening is
:08:50. > :08:54.that people are locking themselves up. Their houses are turning into
:08:54. > :08:58.jails basically, because people don't dare go out, because they
:08:58. > :09:05.just don't feel safe going out into the streets in their own
:09:05. > :09:07.communities. Sergio is a human rights worker who has categoryed
:09:07. > :09:15.Honduras' shocking descent into lawlessness. The machinery of
:09:15. > :09:21.is punty is the norm. We have a judicial
:09:21. > :09:26.system that receives 65,000 to 70,000 complaints every year. And
:09:26. > :09:31.of those, maybe 2,000 are being taken into court system, and of
:09:31. > :09:35.those, a very minimum number will actually achieve some kind of
:09:35. > :09:40.resolution with justice, you know? So what that means is that most
:09:40. > :09:44.people are not seeing justice being done by the judicial system. Quite
:09:44. > :09:47.the contrary. When you have something like 20 murders a day in
:09:47. > :09:52.the country, and you don't even have enough forensic experts to be
:09:52. > :09:57.able to look at the bodies and tells us what happened. That
:09:57. > :10:00.ultimately means that murderers are walking free in Honduras. The
:10:00. > :10:05.people think that police are more to fear than some gangs, for
:10:05. > :10:10.example. I know in my neighbourhood, people walking in the streets at
:10:10. > :10:14.night will much rather walk into a group of young people than walk
:10:14. > :10:17.into a group of police officers coming down the street. Surely
:10:17. > :10:24.you're exaggerating? You seem to be suggesting that there are no good
:10:24. > :10:29.cops in this country, and that there is no possibility of getting
:10:29. > :10:32.justice through the police and judicial system? That must be an
:10:32. > :10:34.exaggeration? There are some good cops. What I'm really saying is
:10:34. > :10:40.that the whole institution is broke down. It's broken down. It's rotten
:10:40. > :10:44.to the core. What I'm saying is the violence in Honduras has to do not
:10:44. > :10:48.only with drug trafficking but with the institutions of democracy
:10:48. > :10:52.breaking down, particularly since the coup, for example. People don't
:10:52. > :10:56.believe in the justice system anymore. Our people doesn't
:10:57. > :11:00.certainly do not believe in the human rights ombudsman anymore,
:11:00. > :11:04.because of the role he played. People do not believe that justice
:11:04. > :11:14.is served. Surely, there are good police officers, but the force as a
:11:14. > :11:17.
:11:17. > :11:27.Those Hondurans who can afford it have built high walls to keep out
:11:27. > :11:28.
:11:28. > :11:34.the chaos. The gulf between the haves and the have-nots is widening.
:11:34. > :11:43.In one of the area's poshest hotels, I found the country's business
:11:43. > :11:45.elite in party mood. Never mind Honduras' problems of crime,
:11:45. > :11:54.corruption and violence, the investment climate, they believe,
:11:54. > :12:02.is about to improve. To understand why, I took a journey
:12:02. > :12:05.north, towards Honduras' border with Guatemala. This valley has
:12:05. > :12:14.been earmarked by the Honduran government as the favoured location
:12:14. > :12:22.for a radical economic experiment. Here, they plan to plant the seeds
:12:22. > :12:28.of a new city. A special development zone. With a government
:12:28. > :12:32.and judicial system separate from the rest of troubled Honduras.
:12:32. > :12:37.Gives you a point of access to the international economy. That's a sea
:12:37. > :12:40.port. Just down there? Just down there. It gives you proximity to a
:12:40. > :12:45.foreign border. That's puts a positive pressure, where you have
:12:45. > :12:50.to compete to be attractive. Mark is one of the architects of this
:12:50. > :12:58.radical idea. Inspired bit success of city states from Dubai to Hong
:12:58. > :13:02.Kong, he's now advising Honduras' President. Mark, welcome to
:13:02. > :13:11.HARDtalk. Thank you. Many Hondurans would say the vision that you have
:13:11. > :13:16.peddled, and that some other visionaries have sold sh them as
:13:16. > :13:20.well, free cities, or charter cities, is deeply troubling to them,
:13:20. > :13:26.because it won't be democratic, it won't operate under the same rules
:13:26. > :13:32.as the rest of the country. In the end, it will be supervised and held
:13:32. > :13:38.to account by foreigners, outsiders? There are voices that
:13:38. > :13:43.defend the status quo. There's not a lot that recommend the statusow.
:13:43. > :13:46.It's recognised by the Hondurans. You have extreme poverty,
:13:46. > :13:51.institutional weakness, the highest rate of crime. To such a dreeg that
:13:51. > :13:57.one of the largest source of foreign exchange over Hondurans who
:13:57. > :14:00.left the country and send money back home, that's 20% of the GDP.
:14:00. > :14:04.That's not a great future. This will be a democracy. There will be
:14:04. > :14:09.rule of law. The people will be there at their own choice and they
:14:09. > :14:19.will have internationally respected rights in all demess. One of the
:14:19. > :14:28.
:14:28. > :14:32.In he off you, the judiciary would be outsourced? -- in your feud.
:14:32. > :14:38.I wanted to be an international financial centres are they hide
:14:38. > :14:46.judges from the UK, and new seat and, and so you have established
:14:46. > :14:49.your credibility, we want your knowledge. The reality is if you
:14:49. > :14:56.want credible institutions you can wait five undue delays or you can
:14:56. > :15:03.bring them in now. -- 500 years. One part of the population were say
:15:03. > :15:08.we will risk our lives to reach the US illegally, with a chance of
:15:08. > :15:13.getting rapes or killed on the way, or to be there illegally, you have
:15:13. > :15:20.reached that point Mac to say what do we not give you one more option.
:15:20. > :15:24.On a sliver of land, that is not 1% of the territory, you create a new
:15:24. > :15:28.environment so that those who wish to go there, you are creating an
:15:28. > :15:31.option. If this vision works it is going to be attractive because it
:15:31. > :15:35.is going to be economically successful. The drugs traffickers
:15:35. > :15:40.will see money here and the criminals will see opportunities.
:15:40. > :15:47.There will be many people who will want to bring all of the problems's
:15:47. > :15:53.has to this model city that you are envisioning. I see it as the
:15:53. > :15:56.opposite. First of all, there will be strong levels of insecurity.
:15:56. > :16:06.Delivered by flu and? Their shore is not in the rest of the country.
:16:06. > :16:10.
:16:10. > :16:16.-- by whom -- they are sure isn't. Some say Honduras is as such a low
:16:16. > :16:21.ebb they are ready to be sold snake oil from any source they can get it.
:16:21. > :16:29.Really, the idea that in 20 years' time the spot where we are sitting
:16:29. > :16:34.today could near the centre of a huge and successful new urban area
:16:34. > :16:41.based on these principles of outsourcing, judicial power and
:16:41. > :16:46.legal power, it is nothing more than a fantasy. Actually it is
:16:46. > :16:50.nothing more than observing the success of that has taken place
:16:50. > :16:56.again and again. You can look at the before and after photographs of
:16:56. > :17:01.Hong Kong, Dubai, Singapore. You can see again and again, what was
:17:01. > :17:05.once this barren Manhattan Island, turned out rather well. There are
:17:05. > :17:10.patterns of success that can be observed and which work. The answer
:17:10. > :17:18.is we have to come back here in 20 years' time. They queue for being
:17:18. > :17:25.on HARDtalk thank you. -- thank you. The dream of building a new
:17:25. > :17:30.Honduras seems far removed from the country's current dark reality. Of
:17:30. > :17:35.neighbourhoods in the capital city under the control of violent gangs,
:17:35. > :17:42.too dangerous to stop playing for a journalist like us, even for the
:17:42. > :17:50.police -- to stop in. Right now, Honduras stands up hard inessential
:17:50. > :17:57.America, more violent than corrupt -- in Central America. It is doomed
:17:57. > :18:00.by a potential failing state. Which is why we wanted to talk to the
:18:00. > :18:06.President. Despite repeated requests, he did not want to talk
:18:06. > :18:14.to us. Instead, we were invited to the presidential palace by his
:18:14. > :18:19.chief of staff. Welcome to HARDtalk thank you for having me. I want to
:18:19. > :18:24.begin by quoting to you the words of the National Commission of Human
:18:24. > :18:29.Rights you said a couple of months ago, such as the corrupt and at all
:18:29. > :18:36.levels that this country is on the verge of becoming a furled state.
:18:36. > :18:43.Do you accept that judgement? -- a failed state. What has happened
:18:43. > :18:46.recently is that due to will the money that is flowing into the
:18:46. > :18:51.country from the drug dealers we are turning into society that the
:18:51. > :18:57.government has lost control of -- due to the money. The government
:18:57. > :19:04.has lost control? Yes. We spoke to one trafficker who is trying to go
:19:04. > :19:08.straight and was prepared to talk. He said that from his experience,
:19:08. > :19:12.the organisations, the cartels and the gangs who are dealing in drugs
:19:12. > :19:19.across borders, have such huge amounts of money they can buy
:19:19. > :19:27.whoever they want. If that is true, it is a fundamental problem. I do
:19:27. > :19:34.not think they can buy to whether they want. It is an outrageous
:19:34. > :19:42.statement. I think they are able to buy people that have a tendency to
:19:42. > :19:49.be corrupted. In the past, they have been corrupted by businessman
:19:49. > :19:53.and now they are corrupted by drug dealers. The feeling in your
:19:53. > :19:58.government is that a very significant proportion of your own
:19:58. > :20:02.security forces, your own police forces in particular, are corrupt
:20:02. > :20:10.and needs to be purged. What percentage of your own police force
:20:10. > :20:18.do you believe will have to be got rid of? I am not an expert but what
:20:18. > :20:24.I can tell you is that it will be a significant portion of the police
:20:24. > :20:30.that will have to be purged. Since the military coup in 2009, more
:20:30. > :20:36.than 300 civilian activists, were the trade unionists or Land Reform
:20:36. > :20:40.Act this, toneless as well, more than 300 of these people have been
:20:40. > :20:43.killed by state agencies -- journalists. We do not know that
:20:44. > :20:50.they have been killed by state agencies. It is something they
:20:50. > :20:57.claim that has happened. Several international community's have
:20:58. > :21:04.looked at that and they have not been able to see that the state is
:21:04. > :21:08.involved. What do you think? Do you think has killed the journalists
:21:08. > :21:18.and the land reform activists? largest problem that we are facing
:21:18. > :21:24.is impunity. Basically, you have a system that is so dysfunctional
:21:24. > :21:29.that 97 of cases that are brought before the Supreme Court or the
:21:29. > :21:35.judicial branch of thrown away, either because of the police not
:21:35. > :21:41.doing their job correctly or the prosecutor who did not do his job
:21:41. > :21:45.correctly, or it was the Church who do not do his job correctly -- the
:21:45. > :21:50.judge -- 97%. That is something we are trying to change. Let me ask
:21:50. > :21:57.you about the bigger picture. For many years, the Honduran political
:21:57. > :22:07.and economic establishment has been dominated by a tiny few families.
:22:07. > :22:08.
:22:08. > :22:11.Until the system changes, it will be very difficult to persuade the
:22:11. > :22:16.people the Government is accountable to the wishes and needs.
:22:16. > :22:22.Do you accept that? Yes. I think most of the people in this
:22:22. > :22:28.government are willing to do the reforms that this country needs.
:22:28. > :22:32.Look - what we are trying to create is a different society. Society in
:22:32. > :22:37.which the most important concern of the government is the human person.
:22:37. > :22:44.That is very different from what we had in the past. How long have you
:22:44. > :22:48.got to turn things around here before Honduras becomes a failed
:22:48. > :22:58.state? I think that it with this government things have begun to
:22:58. > :23:00.
:23:00. > :23:04.turn around. Many of the least you mentioned are coming to realise
:23:04. > :23:12.that they cannot expect politicians or governments to continue giving
:23:12. > :23:17.them that kind of privilege they were given in the past. That is
:23:17. > :23:27.something very important for the future of the country. We also have
:23:27. > :23:27.
:23:27. > :23:33.society, a civil society, that is more empowered and as -- is more
:23:33. > :23:38.willing to attack... With respect, it does not sound and Howard when I
:23:38. > :23:41.talk to civil society. Civil society is scared -- does not sound
:23:41. > :23:50.empowered. They do have power because they are doing the job they
:23:50. > :23:58.were supposed to do. They are the watchdogs of government, of this
:23:58. > :24:05.has none. -- of businessmen. This is a special moment in our history,
:24:05. > :24:11.the climax of violence. As with any climax it will begin to go down. I
:24:11. > :24:19.can tell you at this moment that this will happen quickly and it may