:00:24. > :00:30.improve Bangladesh's conditions. Welcome to HARDtalk. It seems that
:00:30. > :00:33.when you won your big election victory, you had a choice. You
:00:33. > :00:36.could either stick with the politics as usual in Bangladesh,
:00:36. > :00:46.which is really about confrontation and political vendetta, or you
:00:46. > :00:46.
:00:46. > :00:55.could try and heal and unify the country. It seems to me you have
:00:55. > :01:05.chosen politics as usual. Why? Since we formed government, we
:01:05. > :01:07.
:01:07. > :01:09.tried to reconcile everybody. Perhaps for the first time, our
:01:09. > :01:19.people are enjoying their fundamental rights, their
:01:19. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:30.constitutional rights. The opposition and other political
:01:30. > :01:34.parties, everyone is enjoying the democracy we have ensured. At the
:01:34. > :01:40.top, people will look at one simple relationship. The one between you
:01:40. > :01:47.and your predecessor. It's fair to say that you have been enemies for
:01:47. > :01:50.a long time. When she was in power, she tried to persecute you. Now you
:01:50. > :01:56.are in power, you are seeking to prosecute her on corruption charges,
:01:56. > :02:04.seeking to charge her sons, extradite them from abroad. You are
:02:04. > :02:13.chasing her in the way she chased you. We did not file any case
:02:13. > :02:19.against her or her sons. It was done by the previous government.
:02:19. > :02:29.The law will take its own course. It is the continuation of those
:02:29. > :02:31.
:02:31. > :02:37.investigations. Our judiciary is totally independent. Could you not
:02:37. > :02:40.to take this opportunity to say that you want to reach out to her?
:02:40. > :02:47.You would like to bury the differences that have dogged the
:02:47. > :02:57.country for so long because you would like to heal and reconcile?
:02:57. > :03:00.Of course we have. Only, you don't see what we have done. We have been
:03:00. > :03:10.trying to make sure that they should enjoy their fundamental
:03:10. > :03:12.
:03:12. > :03:22.rights, constitutional rights, democratic rights. It is nothing
:03:22. > :03:31.
:03:31. > :03:39.personal. Of course not. This is nothing personal. It is completely
:03:39. > :03:46.ideological. We believe in democracy, secularism, constitution.
:03:46. > :03:52.There is a very big difference. Their party is a military
:03:52. > :03:58.dictator's party. The formation of the party is totally different from
:03:58. > :04:00.mine. Why has the UN Human Rights Council issued a recent report on
:04:01. > :04:03.your country saying human rights violations continue unabated in
:04:03. > :04:13.Bangladesh, including extra- judicial death, torture and cruel
:04:13. > :04:16.
:04:16. > :04:25.treatment in law enforcement custody? It was during the time of
:04:25. > :04:29.my predecessor. But you are now in charge and have been for 2.5 years.
:04:29. > :04:34.All the evidence says that the abuses are continuing. They're not
:04:34. > :04:41.continuing. Once it has been established and during that time,
:04:41. > :04:47.how many people have been killed? We have reduced it. We have given
:04:47. > :04:56.training in how to keep human rights. We have been giving them
:04:56. > :05:06.training. If anybody makes any kind of mistake, immediately we book
:05:06. > :05:10.
:05:10. > :05:20.them. If that is true, how can 22 people have disappeared this year
:05:20. > :05:22.
:05:22. > :05:28.alone? Including a significant Labour and trade union activist. He
:05:28. > :05:36.was tortured and ended up dead. is not true. How many people
:05:36. > :05:39.disappear from London every year? Political prisoners disappearing? I
:05:39. > :05:45.would say no-one is taken away from society because of their political
:05:45. > :05:51.activities. I don't know if he is a political activist or not. Nobody
:05:51. > :05:57.knows. People do know. They know that he has been involved and
:05:57. > :06:03.labour rights campaigning for years. Nobody knew. His dead body was
:06:03. > :06:08.found by our law enforcement agency. Who do you think killed him? I
:06:08. > :06:16.don't know. Even if he was an activist, we had never heard of him
:06:17. > :06:26.before. His dead body was found by our police. Suddenly, it appeared
:06:27. > :06:28.
:06:28. > :06:31.that he was a big leader. You keep talking about the police. Perhaps
:06:31. > :06:37.the biggest concern in Bangladesh is that you have completely failed
:06:37. > :06:40.to rein in elements in the military which you used to criticise. You
:06:40. > :06:47.criticised a unit repeatedly when you were in opposition for human
:06:47. > :06:57.rights abuses. Now, today, on the euro parity, that unit is still
:06:57. > :06:59.
:06:59. > :07:02.described by human rights groups as a death squad. It is not true. That
:07:02. > :07:12.unit was established during the previous government and they killed
:07:12. > :07:14.
:07:14. > :07:20.people. I opposed it. So why haven't you reigned them in?
:07:20. > :07:26.you should see the number of deaths. It has been significantly reduced.
:07:26. > :07:28.We never encouraged them to do this kind of thing. Then why are they
:07:28. > :07:35.doing it? You are the Prime Minister. Shouldn't you dismantle
:07:35. > :07:40.the unit if you think it is rotten? It was started in 2004. Once it has
:07:40. > :07:50.started, it takes time to stop it. You can't stop it overnight. We
:07:50. > :07:51.
:07:51. > :07:58.have been in power for three years. We significantly reduced it. We are
:07:58. > :08:08.careful about it. If anybody commits any misdeed, we immediately
:08:08. > :08:12.
:08:12. > :08:16.punish them. That has never happened before. The question is
:08:16. > :08:19.one of fulfilling promises. Your Foreign Minister famously said that
:08:19. > :08:24.when the new government came to power that there would be zero
:08:24. > :08:30.tolerance for abuses. Right now, you are not operating a zero
:08:30. > :08:40.tolerance policy. Of course we are. We believe in zero tolerance for
:08:40. > :08:42.
:08:42. > :08:49.this kind of killing or terrorism. What about zero tolerance of
:08:49. > :08:52.corruption? Of course zero tolerance. The public in your
:08:52. > :08:55.country wants to believe in the integrity of government, both in
:08:55. > :09:00.terms of respecting human rights, but also in terms of fundamental
:09:00. > :09:05.integrity and honesty amongst public servants. We do not see that
:09:05. > :09:15.in your government. Listen, long time in our country, military rule
:09:15. > :09:22.
:09:22. > :09:32.has ruled the country. They indulged in corruption. I can
:09:32. > :09:33.
:09:33. > :09:41.assure you that we're not involved in corruption. If we were, how
:09:41. > :09:51.could we have made so much progress in the country? We are keeping our
:09:51. > :09:56.
:09:56. > :10:06.GDP above 6%. We increased our literacy rate and power generation.
:10:06. > :10:08.
:10:08. > :10:11.We have increased our food production. Economy is growing and
:10:11. > :10:15.your figures of growth are impressive but the question is who
:10:15. > :10:21.is benefiting from the money coming in from your economic progress.
:10:21. > :10:25.of course not. I'm doing politics for the sake of the people. If that
:10:25. > :10:34.is true, why has the World Bank lost confidence in your
:10:34. > :10:38.government's ability to deliver on clean government? The World Bank
:10:38. > :10:41.wanted to put more than $1 billion of funding into one of the most
:10:41. > :10:50.important infrastructures your country has seen for many years - a
:10:50. > :10:53.key bridge project. They withdrew the funding because they had
:10:53. > :10:56.alerted you government to corruption in the handing out of
:10:56. > :11:06.contracts, they wanted action and were not satisfied with the action
:11:06. > :11:08.
:11:08. > :11:14.you talk. Suddenly they raised the issue. I ask them and my Finance
:11:14. > :11:23.Minister, give us proof. They could not give us any substantial proof
:11:23. > :11:27.there was corruption. Are you denying that there has been
:11:27. > :11:34.corruption and the handing out of contracts for this bridge project?
:11:34. > :11:38.Of course. I'm puzzled because one of the key ministers who stands
:11:38. > :11:47.accused of involvement in this has just quit their government. Why is
:11:47. > :11:57.that? Many people accused him. So he resigned. He has done a brave
:11:57. > :12:03.
:12:03. > :12:06.thing. The question is a simple one. The World Bank sent a letter
:12:06. > :12:10.outlining their concerns. There were four different itemised
:12:10. > :12:16.concerns about corruption. You had the opportunity to publish that
:12:16. > :12:22.letter and tell the Bangladeshi people what went wrong. You have
:12:22. > :12:32.consistently refused to do that. You can't do that because there is
:12:32. > :12:32.
:12:32. > :12:37.an embargo. It is not true. It is true. They say they can't publish
:12:37. > :12:42.but you can. That is the way the World Bank's relationship with
:12:42. > :12:46.individual states works. You have the right to do it, they don't.
:12:46. > :12:54.letter does not mean anything. They should have proof and they could
:12:54. > :13:01.not supply any substantial proof. A letter can't prove that there is
:13:01. > :13:04.corruption. The opposition says that letter points a finger at you
:13:04. > :13:14.and other senior members of government. You can point at
:13:14. > :13:14.
:13:14. > :13:23.anybody. Our Anti-Corruption Commission are investigating. They
:13:23. > :13:31.asked the World Bank to send any proof. They have denied it. If they
:13:31. > :13:40.have substantial proof, why have they denied it? I personally want
:13:40. > :13:43.it. They send two letters to me and that was not my problem. The
:13:43. > :13:53.previous government, I pointed out this is not my government or my
:13:53. > :14:00.
:14:00. > :14:03.minister. Twice they did it, they could not prove. It seems a shame
:14:03. > :14:10.for the Bangladeshi people, many of whom are living in dire poverty,
:14:10. > :14:13.that your relationship with the World Bank has soured so badly. It
:14:13. > :14:16.also seems a shame that your relationship with one of the most
:14:16. > :14:26.respected business leaders in your country, a Nobel laureate, has also
:14:26. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:44.soured so badly. Why did you call You go to Bangladesh, then you will
:14:44. > :14:50.
:14:50. > :14:56.see. Did I mention his name? I didn't. Why in your mind... Are you
:14:56. > :15:04.now denying that you see him as a bloodsucker? No. You do? I am
:15:04. > :15:07.putting the question to you. Why in your mind is that him? You are
:15:07. > :15:11.misunderstanding me. I am reading the Bangladeshi press. Everybody in
:15:11. > :15:18.the media believes you referred directly to him when you used this
:15:18. > :15:28.phrase, "A bloodsucker of the poor". If you want to retract it or you
:15:28. > :15:31.
:15:31. > :15:38.didn't mean him, that's fine. Listen, I am telling you one thing.
:15:38. > :15:48.Is it fair, 40% poor people? It is not. How can those poor people
:15:48. > :15:50.
:15:50. > :15:53.stand by themselves? So the entire model built by the Grameen Bank and
:15:53. > :15:57.Muhammad Yunus, that has been celebrated around the world as a
:15:57. > :16:04.way of lifting poor people out of poverty, you say you do not accept
:16:04. > :16:13.or want it? There should be an inquiry as to how many people come
:16:13. > :16:21.out of poverty because of it. How many? Poverty reduction is done by
:16:21. > :16:27.my government. Within three years, we reduced to 10% poverty. So it is
:16:27. > :16:34.our government. About this bank, it is a government statutory body, a
:16:34. > :16:38.government established... Is it true you forced Muhammad Yunus out
:16:38. > :16:47.of his role in the bank after he tried to set up an independent
:16:47. > :16:51.political party in 2007? That is why you turned against him? That is
:16:51. > :16:56.when I was in custody, in jail, when he tried to form his political
:16:56. > :17:03.party. I know. And you have never forgiven him for it. Well, he
:17:04. > :17:11.failed. He had every opportunity. Why did he form his party? Have you
:17:11. > :17:16.ever thought about it? I didn't oust him from the bank, he did it
:17:16. > :17:26.himself. I am telling you. According to the law, he can remain
:17:26. > :17:31.
:17:31. > :17:38.till he is 60. How old was he? 70 or 71. He is perhaps the most
:17:38. > :17:42.celebrated Bangladeshi of modern times. I know that. And you tell
:17:42. > :17:49.him he has to leave the bank because he is too old? That is a
:17:49. > :17:54.misconception. No. His age did not permit him. But he went to the
:17:54. > :18:00.court. He filed a case against my government. The Governor-General of
:18:00. > :18:03.the Bangladeshi bank filed the case. Because of this, he defected. When
:18:04. > :18:09.you talk about Muhammad Yunus, and others, there is a sense of
:18:09. > :18:12.animosity. A sense that the divisions in Bangladeshi society
:18:13. > :18:22.have not healed, which tells me that you have not achieved your aim
:18:23. > :18:26.
:18:26. > :18:35.of unifying your country. country is unified. If you go
:18:35. > :18:39.through the result of the election, you can see this. You have seen an
:18:39. > :18:43.attempted coup in your country in the last 12 months. You have seen
:18:43. > :18:46.the opposition put hundreds of thousands of people on the street
:18:46. > :18:48.and say that they may not contest the next election because of
:18:48. > :18:52.constitutional changes that you have made which they say
:18:52. > :18:56.fundamentally threaten democracy. How can you tell me that your
:18:56. > :18:59.country is unified? We amended the constitution that ensured
:18:59. > :19:09.democratic rights for our people, the fundamental rights of our
:19:09. > :19:09.
:19:09. > :19:16.people. Because unconstitutional governments cannot continue in the
:19:16. > :19:22.future. They cannot capture power illegally. That we made sure in the
:19:22. > :19:26.constitution. We ensured our people's democratic right. Before
:19:26. > :19:30.we finish, let's stick with this idea that you believe you are on a
:19:30. > :19:33.long-term trajectory to real economic improvement and progress.
:19:33. > :19:41.There is one fundamental problem facing your country, which goes far
:19:41. > :19:47.beyond party politics for some of the other issues we have discussed.
:19:47. > :19:50.That is, the threat of climate change. Yes. We now have experts in
:19:50. > :19:53.your own country saying that, and I quote from the Bangladesh Centre
:19:53. > :19:57.for Advanced Study, more than 30 million Bangladeshis are liable to
:19:57. > :20:07.lose everything from climate change and rising sea levels in the next
:20:07. > :20:08.
:20:08. > :20:18.30-50 years. What is your strategic plan to counter that potential
:20:18. > :20:26.catastrophe? Already we have adopted mitigation plans. We have
:20:26. > :20:29.adapted... We are now waiting for assistance or foreign funding. In
:20:29. > :20:39.our own budget, we have already taken many steps for mitigation and
:20:39. > :20:42.
:20:42. > :20:46.already we have started implementing it. We have a small
:20:46. > :20:49.fund but we need more support from the world so that those who are
:20:49. > :20:58.responsible for this climate change, for global warming, those countries
:20:58. > :21:03.should come forward and assist us. Because we are the worst sufferer.
:21:03. > :21:09.Our people are the worst sufferers. They should come forward and place
:21:09. > :21:15.funding so that we can assist our people. You should see what we have
:21:15. > :21:22.done and what we have started. How to save our people. How to save our
:21:22. > :21:26.country. We have started building vents. We have started raising our
:21:26. > :21:34.rivers. We have started building shelters, flood shelters, for our
:21:34. > :21:38.people. Already in the southern part, work has started. Final
:21:38. > :21:44.question. You came to office after a substantial election victory with
:21:44. > :21:49.very high hopes that you really could change Bangladesh. Do you
:21:49. > :21:55.believe you have changed it? Yes, I believe so. Already, we have an
:21:55. > :22:04.action plan. A long-term and short- term plan. We have a vision until
:22:04. > :22:10.2021. Already, we have adapted our programme. This five to six year
:22:10. > :22:20.plan for economic development. We have already started implementing
:22:20. > :22:24.
:22:24. > :22:30.it. We have a mission to develop the country. I believe only I can
:22:30. > :22:34.make change for the poor people of our country. I do politics to not
:22:34. > :22:37.only bring change to our people's lives but also to make sure that
:22:37. > :22:47.our people should get their basic needs, fundamental rights, so for
:22:47. > :22:53.
:22:53. > :22:57.that we are working. I believe only I can do it. My party. That has
:22:57. > :23:03.prompted another question. "Only I can do it", you say. Does that mean
:23:03. > :23:07.you intend to run again? Some Bangladeshis say it is time for a
:23:07. > :23:10.generational change. For all the long-term struggle between you and
:23:10. > :23:14.your parties, the best thing for Bangladesh in the next election
:23:14. > :23:24.would be for both of you to leave the stage and introduce a new
:23:24. > :23:33.generation of leaders. Do you want to run again? Of course I do. If my