:00:11. > :00:16.More from me at 2pm. Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:21.There is no room for sentiment in elite sport. My guest today learned
:00:21. > :00:26.that lesson when he captained England's rugby team at last year's
:00:26. > :00:30.World Cup in New Zealand. Nevin it -- never mind his 70 odd caps and
:00:30. > :00:35.his reputation for commitment, Lewis Moody came under fire for
:00:35. > :00:40.England's poor performance on and off the field. Today, he retired
:00:40. > :00:50.from the game which has dominated so much of his life. -- this year.
:00:50. > :00:54.
:00:54. > :01:04.Physically and mentally, how heavy a toll has robbed the taken? --
:01:04. > :01:16.
:01:16. > :01:22.Lewis Moody, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. In your rugby career,
:01:22. > :01:31.you acquired one of the best known nicknames in what the sport. You
:01:31. > :01:36.were known as Mad Dog. You wore it as a badge of honour. Why? For me
:01:36. > :01:43.it was a term of endearment. People had seen the way I committed myself
:01:43. > :01:48.to the game and to the cause. To whichever team it was, Leicester or
:01:48. > :01:53.England. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was Brian Ashton who probably
:01:53. > :02:03.peaked that nickname after the 2007 World Cup. I got knocked down twice
:02:03. > :02:03.
:02:03. > :02:08.playing Tonga and it stuck from there. You talk about being knocked
:02:08. > :02:11.out twice which brings me to a quote from Andy Farrell, now senior
:02:11. > :02:16.member of the England coaching staff. He said he had never seen
:02:16. > :02:25.any other player put his body on the line like you did. He said, a
:02:25. > :02:29.fighter who has total disrespect to a body. Was that true? The whole
:02:29. > :02:33.this respect for my own body, I have a huge amount of respect for
:02:33. > :02:38.my body. I just wish it would respect me and what I wanted to do
:02:38. > :02:42.with it more. It has let me down. You say that with a smile on your
:02:42. > :02:46.face. He once played in a game we were knocked out twice. No medical
:02:46. > :02:51.doctor would allow you to do that. Possibly to everybody else that may
:02:51. > :02:56.seem insane but from an early age I was taught that the -- that in
:02:56. > :03:00.rugby you do as much as you can for your team-mates. For me, putting my
:03:00. > :03:05.head and body about where people may not want to normally was just
:03:05. > :03:09.doing my bit for the team. If I showed that enthusiasm for my team-
:03:09. > :03:15.mates, they would show it for me. When I first played at Leicester,
:03:15. > :03:21.it was drilled into me at 18 and it was something I could never shake.
:03:21. > :03:26.Fall on nothing training. And certainly my body paid a heavy toll
:03:26. > :03:30.but I thoroughly enjoyed every run it. -- all or nothing. We will get
:03:30. > :03:37.back to your body's condition later. But if you think about the England
:03:37. > :03:42.team in 2003, it was triumphant, and then the England team that you
:03:42. > :03:47.lived in 2011, it has to be said it ended in a fairly disastrous loss
:03:47. > :03:55.to France in the quarterfinals, was the biggest difference between
:03:55. > :04:05.those two teens, one of attitude don't think it was hunger. Any
:04:05. > :04:07.
:04:07. > :04:12.rugby player I have made is hungry for success. Those that don't soon
:04:12. > :04:16.disappear. But if you look at 2003, that was a side that is difficult
:04:16. > :04:21.to compare to because they have been together for many years and
:04:21. > :04:27.had gone through tough times. In the late 90s, the tool of doom that
:04:27. > :04:31.I was on as a 19-year-old. And then through the early 2000s when they
:04:31. > :04:37.got two Grand Slams and lost out on the last game. Three successive
:04:37. > :04:42.once they lost. In 2002, we won the first Six Nations. They've learnt a
:04:42. > :04:48.lot through that period. Include 1011, we were a young side but we
:04:48. > :04:55.were building nicely. -- in 2011. We came to Australia having only
:04:55. > :05:00.won twice in Australia in 125 years. We did it again. Three times. We
:05:00. > :05:05.were one of the teams that did it. Don't race ahead of yourself. Just
:05:05. > :05:11.sticking with 2003, it was historic in England to come back with a
:05:11. > :05:16.World Cup and it was a big deal for the nation. But you mention of Sir
:05:16. > :05:19.Clive Woodward who was the coach. You said he may not have been
:05:19. > :05:23.everybody's cup of tea but he turned us into consummate
:05:24. > :05:28.professionals. I wonder, with your experience, is it true that a coach
:05:28. > :05:33.who has the ability to impose his will on a team can make the
:05:33. > :05:40.difference between success and failure? I absolutely believe that.
:05:41. > :05:45.Clive Woodward was an example of that. He understood what was
:05:45. > :05:51.required and changed England in that professional career. No matter
:05:51. > :05:59.how much time was left on the clock, he showed he still have enough time
:05:59. > :06:03.to score. And imposing his will in terms of team discipline. I want to
:06:03. > :06:07.talk about alcohol and maybe the lack of discipline in 2011. But he
:06:07. > :06:12.said if you don't buy into my programme, you are gone. He did
:06:12. > :06:16.that and he sent down his laws and what was going to happen. You can't
:06:16. > :06:22.speak highly enough of him as an individual but he did take England
:06:23. > :06:26.into a different era. We then get up to 2011. You didn't have Clive
:06:26. > :06:30.Woodward and you were coached by Martin Johnson who had been a
:06:30. > :06:36.player with you for so long during the brilliant campaigns in 2003.
:06:36. > :06:41.And you were the captain. Would you now, looking back on it, save that
:06:42. > :06:47.you and he, Martin Johnson, failed to impose the right mentality and
:06:47. > :06:52.the right discipline upon that scored? You certainly look back...
:06:52. > :06:56.I was always my fiercest critic. Whatever you do, whether as a
:06:56. > :07:00.player or captain, you go back and analyse and address the things you
:07:00. > :07:04.think you have done well on the pitch, you have done badly, the
:07:04. > :07:07.things you have done well as the leader or you tried to pre-empt the
:07:08. > :07:12.things you might do badly see you can address them in the future.
:07:12. > :07:16.Looking back, there were times when I possibly said something or give
:07:16. > :07:21.something differently for different individuals... One of the most
:07:21. > :07:25.frustrating things about that whole tour for me was that we spoke a
:07:26. > :07:31.length about the media scrutiny we came under in the World Cup.
:07:31. > :07:36.Beforehand? Before leaving the shores. And then again when we got
:07:36. > :07:40.there. The fact we still managed to let ourselves open to that media
:07:40. > :07:44.scrutiny. That was the most disappointing thing for me. As
:07:44. > :07:48.players, you have to hold up your hands and be accountable and say,
:07:49. > :07:52.we could have done better. I don't want to go through every incident
:07:52. > :08:01.but perhaps there was one particular incident that we have to
:08:01. > :08:06.talk about a little bit. That is, I think the 9th it was after you one
:08:06. > :08:11.and many of the boys went out drinking in a particular bar. You
:08:11. > :08:16.were there and it was a bizarre weekend in this bar. There were
:08:16. > :08:20.many people there. A lot of beer was drunk. But at 10pm, you have
:08:20. > :08:26.written about it, you said alarm bells were going off and he decided
:08:26. > :08:31.to get out of there and go back to the hotel. Several of your team-
:08:31. > :08:34.mates, including Mike Tindall, didn't take that decision and their
:08:34. > :08:39.faces ended up all over the newspapers for various reasons in
:08:39. > :08:43.the following days, most of them concerning alcohol. Why as captain
:08:43. > :08:48.did you not say to the team, we are leaving now? Because at that
:08:48. > :08:52.particular point, and you are right in saying I was there, we actually
:08:52. > :08:56.started off the night in a completely separate bar having a
:08:56. > :09:01.few things together as a team, as many teams do when they want to get
:09:01. > :09:07.away from rugby at some point. We then moved on and we came across
:09:07. > :09:12.this bar. We went in to watch one of the best games of the tournament
:09:12. > :09:17.in terms of the rugby. When that finished, myself and a few of the
:09:17. > :09:22.lads decided to leave. Obviously the other stuff that was going on
:09:22. > :09:26.in the bar made us think it was time to go. At that point, there
:09:26. > :09:31.were a couple of guys with me, not the people you have spoken about,
:09:32. > :09:37.and I wish they had taken them with me, but I wish I had stayed and not
:09:37. > :09:41.left. Later, the guys did a ride. If I had been there, I'd like to
:09:41. > :09:45.think that I would have been able to say, this is not right. You have
:09:45. > :09:50.to walk away and take that responsibility. I am gutted to this
:09:50. > :09:54.day that I didn't stay with a couple of the lads that remained in
:09:54. > :09:57.the bar and then would have come across the other boys and that to
:09:57. > :10:00.write later and could have said something and hopefully changed the
:10:00. > :10:05.course of that tournament. But whether we would have performed
:10:05. > :10:09.better on the pitch because of that or not, I don't know. With all the
:10:09. > :10:14.off-field issues, it severely affected certain individuals. It
:10:14. > :10:19.affected me. I was dealing with meetings I should not have dealt
:10:19. > :10:25.with. I just wonder if there is a sense, perhaps will you and Martin
:10:25. > :10:28.Johnson, that it was difficult to impose discipline on senior players,
:10:28. > :10:33.whom you were friends with and had been colleagues with and been
:10:33. > :10:39.through battles with, and when it came to it, you couldn't quite find
:10:39. > :10:43.the right way of dealing with these senior players in a team for whom
:10:43. > :10:49.you are now responsible with Martin Johnson? At the end of the day,
:10:49. > :10:55.when you are involved in 18, you can talk and lay down the laws and
:10:55. > :10:59.there is a certain amount of accountability as individuals. --
:10:59. > :11:03.in 18. You have to understand your actions there are just reflect on
:11:03. > :11:09.yourself but on the group. He trusted other to do that and on
:11:09. > :11:17.that tour, there was some naivety and we allowed the media to get in
:11:17. > :11:21.where we didn't want to. But that's history. Thankfully, England have
:11:22. > :11:26.now... Martin Johnson called it a day after that. If you look at the
:11:26. > :11:33.coaches that have succeeded, when I look at Clive Woodward, his first
:11:33. > :11:38.tour as an England coach, it could have all quite easily have gone
:11:38. > :11:47.wrong. He knew where he wanted to go and he saw a vision. He grew
:11:47. > :11:52.that team and himself and eventually he came away in 2003. I
:11:52. > :12:00.hope -- I wish Martyn could have done the same thing. But he stepped
:12:00. > :12:04.down and I think Stuart has taken over. A final thought about the
:12:04. > :12:09.fall-out from the 2011 World Cup debacle. Afterwards, there were
:12:09. > :12:15.various reviews from the Rugby Football Union in the UK in England.
:12:15. > :12:19.They included anonymous interviews with players, which were leaked to
:12:19. > :12:24.the Times newspapers. We don't know which players said White but some
:12:24. > :12:28.said things like this, I quote, senior players on the two were were
:12:28. > :12:33.pushing boundaries and treating it like it was an old school to work,
:12:33. > :12:37.drinking to excess. There was a culture where it was not cool to
:12:37. > :12:41.train hard. One young player said that after the defeat to France, a
:12:41. > :12:46.senior player came into the dressing room and said, there is
:12:46. > :12:50.�35,000 down the toilet. The young player commented, that made me sick
:12:50. > :12:58.because money should not even come into it. You must have been very
:12:58. > :13:02.disappointed? Hugely. I was disappointed on a number of levels.
:13:02. > :13:09.Firstly, that those reports had been leaked because they were
:13:09. > :13:16.supposed to be private affairs that we could take away and deal with.
:13:16. > :13:21.We all felt let down by players, coaches and everyone. But
:13:21. > :13:25.personally in terms of the criticism aimed at individuals,
:13:25. > :13:30.talking about the money, money should never come into it.
:13:30. > :13:37.Thankfully, I did not hear the person who said that. I would have
:13:37. > :13:42.been frustrated if I did. When you have just lost, people can say
:13:42. > :13:46.anything. Whoever said it, I have no idea. But, at the end of the day,
:13:46. > :13:49.there was this rift created by those couple of Commons. If you
:13:49. > :13:55.take the reams of information that we gathered during that report and
:13:55. > :14:01.you take out a couple of comments like that, then it kind of creates
:14:01. > :14:07.the swift. But it wasn't like that. There was a huge amount of
:14:07. > :14:14.dedicated individuals and a handful of guys that possibly were slightly
:14:14. > :14:20.naive in terms of the number of areas. Were some of them senior
:14:20. > :14:27.players? It goes across the board. There was some naivety at times. --
:14:27. > :14:36.in terms of the areas. You would love to go back and create those in
:14:36. > :14:39.hindsight. I do send us in terms of the way the Rugby Football Union is
:14:39. > :14:45.administered, one journalist has called it the most dysfunctional
:14:45. > :14:55.administrative body in the whole of professional sport. Did they fix
:14:55. > :15:00.
:15:00. > :15:02.It is an interesting question. With the League reports there was a huge
:15:02. > :15:12.amount of disappointment from the playing staff and coaches in terms
:15:12. > :15:15.
:15:15. > :15:21.of what was said. It was supposed to be confidential. The director
:15:21. > :15:24.criticised you for, according to the leaks, leaving a player
:15:24. > :15:32.rebellion on the eve of departure for the World Cup due to concerns
:15:32. > :15:37.about money. He then came under huge criticism and is still sitting
:15:37. > :15:47.as the professional director of the Rugby Football Union. Do you think
:15:47. > :15:47.
:15:47. > :15:54.his head has to roll? After that 2011 campaign Barre few that were
:15:54. > :16:01.in a bit of a shambles. Some of the things that happened were not right
:16:01. > :16:07.in any way, shape or form. Thankfully they have taken over.
:16:07. > :16:15.Everything had seen them do - one of the problems was that nobody was
:16:15. > :16:20.working together as a team. It is a team sport. On the pitch you work
:16:20. > :16:24.as a team. Coaches work for one common goal. They now all seem to
:16:24. > :16:33.be in the right direction. You were a bit more free to talk now than
:16:33. > :16:38.when you were the captain. Do you believe Robert Andrew should go?
:16:38. > :16:46.will not get into way personal battle on that. What happened after
:16:46. > :16:55.the World Cup, I was accountable, they were accountable. Whatever
:16:55. > :16:59.happens in the future will happen. Very much safer hands now. I wish
:16:59. > :17:05.to take a step back and have you consider your whole career. It was
:17:05. > :17:10.a long one. You started when you were five years old. You have had
:17:10. > :17:20.so many years in the professional game. How profound was the change
:17:20. > :17:28.in terms of money? It was profound at the start. The year I left
:17:28. > :17:33.school I was playing a -- planning to the town -- I was planning to
:17:33. > :17:41.join the military. Thankfully road be turned professional but summer.
:17:41. > :17:51.It was very fortunate. Otherwise I would be in the military. Money
:17:51. > :17:51.
:17:51. > :18:01.changed everything. I remember the first session we had they said, we
:18:01. > :18:02.
:18:02. > :18:07.are professional now. We will train 925. -- 9 - 5. We would get to the
:18:07. > :18:16.damage to your body. You have had so many fractures, tears, serious
:18:16. > :18:19.injuries. When you look at what other top sportsmen do, sports like
:18:19. > :18:24.professional football, tennis or golf, they do not put their bodies
:18:24. > :18:31.on the line the way you do. You still do not learn the money they
:18:31. > :18:34.do, do you resent that? I would never resent anyone earning as much
:18:34. > :18:38.money as they can earn. It is one of those sports that you do it
:18:38. > :18:46.because you love it. I was lucky because they got to earn money out
:18:46. > :18:53.of it. Without going into too much personal detail have you set
:18:53. > :18:58.yourself up for life? Absolutely not. I would be lucky if I earned
:18:58. > :19:03.enough to last a year. We were lucky as players. Be made a good
:19:03. > :19:09.living. Nowhere near that of footballers and other athletes.
:19:09. > :19:13.Rugby is a growing sport. It was a run the 2003 that it suddenly
:19:13. > :19:21.became part of the English psyche. More money has been pumped into
:19:21. > :19:26.which. I just hope it can stay grounded in its roots as it always
:19:26. > :19:32.has been and there we can keep producing level-headed individuals.
:19:32. > :19:37.One of the most extraordinary aspects of your Korea is that we
:19:37. > :19:42.now know, because you have been honest, were seriously ill for a
:19:42. > :19:47.number of years when you were at the top of the game. You had a very
:19:47. > :19:53.serious condition. It was debilitating for a while. How on
:19:53. > :20:00.earth as a professional sportsman did you deal with that? It was
:20:00. > :20:08.really tough. I didn't know anyone that openly talks about it. Faure
:20:08. > :20:14.young man who was 25 and all of a sudden you're going to the loo, 20
:20:14. > :20:20.times a day, you while losing a relentless a mass of lard. I left
:20:20. > :20:28.is a month before I saw a doctor. It was a daily routine. Eventually
:20:28. > :20:38.I went and had a colonoscopy. It was certainly one experience I do
:20:38. > :20:48.not enjoy. It was very humiliating and debilitating. I thought it
:20:48. > :20:54.wasn't all person's disease. -- old person's disease. It is coming into
:20:54. > :21:04.the public eye more. Finding information was the hardest thing.
:21:04. > :21:05.
:21:05. > :21:10.A -- I tried to hide it from my team-mates. Isn't that the point?
:21:10. > :21:15.We have talked a lot about the culture of rugby. The culture of
:21:15. > :21:19.the dressing room. It is an incredibly much of place. Having
:21:19. > :21:24.this disease of the bowel, with everything that came with it, was
:21:24. > :21:27.extraordinarily difficult to be honest about. You have to put a
:21:27. > :21:33.front one in the dressing room. This was a vulnerability that you
:21:33. > :21:39.could not reveal. It was probably a couple of years until I actually
:21:39. > :21:43.told my good mates. They knew already. I lost weight, I was
:21:43. > :21:48.struggling to leave the house sometimes. I only lived four
:21:48. > :21:54.minutes away from the training ground. Sometimes I had to plan the
:21:55. > :22:04.route this -- so that I could stop on the way. People wondered what
:22:05. > :22:05.
:22:05. > :22:13.was going on. It became a much easier when I did tell them. It was
:22:13. > :22:19.a macho environment, but when I told the lads, if I had to sprint
:22:19. > :22:23.often goes to the low, it was an emergency stop. It became known.
:22:23. > :22:29.They could joke about it and I could relax about it. It made my
:22:29. > :22:34.life easier. That was a learning curve for me. What intrigues me
:22:34. > :22:39.about all top-level sportsman, when they quit, is how they recreate the
:22:39. > :22:47.bars, the adrenalin, but they have had from their sport in the rest of
:22:47. > :22:53.their life. How do you do with? cannot say I have found a way. The
:22:53. > :23:01.other day I was with my wife in the garden. We have been buying plants
:23:01. > :23:06.and mowing the lawn and stuff. She arrange some players and said, do
:23:06. > :23:16.they look right their? They said, adding low care, they are just
:23:16. > :23:22.plants. I went off at her. A few minutes later I apologise. She said,
:23:22. > :23:26.you need to go to the gym. You need to that of some testosterone. You
:23:26. > :23:36.have to find a way to release the energy. Whether it is me going to
:23:36. > :23:36.
:23:36. > :23:41.the gym, I have taken up a challenge of tracking for a charity.
:23:41. > :23:46.It will be aware of focusing my mind into working on a challenge
:23:46. > :23:49.that is tough enough to propel me. We are almost out of time. There
:23:49. > :23:53.are so many sportsmen who have struggled with an idea that in
:23:53. > :24:02.their 20s and 30s they reached a pinnacle that they will never be
:24:02. > :24:08.able to recreate. A sense of, I have done the best thing I've ever
:24:08. > :24:12.done. What you think of it? have just thoroughly depressed me.
:24:12. > :24:17.Maybe in the months or years to come there will be a morning forays