:00:03. > :00:13.her murder. Those are the main stories. Now it
:00:13. > :00:14.
:00:14. > :00:18.The United nations had hoped that by 2015 every child would be able
:00:18. > :00:21.to go to primary school. But the last time they reported on progress
:00:21. > :00:28.to that goal they said 69 million children were still not getting an
:00:28. > :00:31.education, most of those in sub- Saharan Africa. Michael Barber has
:00:31. > :00:35.advised governments around the world about education. He's now
:00:35. > :00:37.working for the international company Pearson. It recently
:00:38. > :00:43.announced it would invest millions in private schools for the world's
:00:43. > :00:53.poorest families. Is that the right way to tackle the problem or could
:00:53. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:36.it undermine what governments are How is this going to work? We are
:01:36. > :01:41.going to invest in chains that are for the poorest families, to
:01:41. > :01:45.provide education for their families. There is an even huge
:01:45. > :01:51.increase in the numbers of children attending low-cost private schools.
:01:51. > :01:56.Only 30% of children are now in public schools. You will find
:01:56. > :01:59.similar numbers in cities in Africa. If governments are going to solve
:01:59. > :02:03.the problem of education for families in the developing world,
:02:03. > :02:07.we have to have the government Sissons improving and we have to
:02:07. > :02:15.invest in the quality of private schools. At the moment the parents
:02:15. > :02:21.are leaving public school to go to private school because many schools
:02:21. > :02:24.are still of poor quality. 40% of choosing private schools and that
:02:24. > :02:28.tows you about the quality of government schools. There's just
:02:28. > :02:34.look first at home you are proposing to use this fund. $50
:02:34. > :02:38.million is not a lot of money? will go a long way to get started.
:02:38. > :02:44.There are lots of one school or two school of little companies and we
:02:45. > :02:49.are going to find large chains of schools that a good high quality
:02:49. > :02:59.but still below cost and much more reliable than the cover and private
:02:59. > :03:02.
:03:02. > :03:06.sector. And they are going to be run by Pearson? Not just come
:03:06. > :03:09.Pearson. You talk about a private school in places like Africa and
:03:09. > :03:13.one presumes this is going to be for the middle-classes and this
:03:13. > :03:17.really cannot be for the millions of children who are struggling to
:03:17. > :03:21.go to to Keyston who are those from families on less than $1 a day?
:03:21. > :03:27.the contrary. These are schools for the very poor people. We are
:03:27. > :03:32.talking about at the lowest level, $4 a month at the highest level,
:03:32. > :03:38.$10 a month. So you are saying a private school, and to pay for it,
:03:38. > :03:44.a tart would pay $3 a month? That is the lowest end of the spectrum,
:03:44. > :03:49.yes. If you think of it as a day's wages for a labourer, for one
:03:49. > :03:52.month's School in, this is low cost education. This is not Pearson
:03:52. > :03:59.building this sector, it has created itself over the past 15
:03:59. > :04:04.years. They have had a huge increase in parents choosing a --
:04:04. > :04:07.low-cost education. The higher cost of private schools the more likely
:04:07. > :04:11.that there will be public schools in the area. This is parents voting
:04:11. > :04:15.with their feet and they know the world is changing and they can only
:04:15. > :04:20.succeed if the children get a good education for the future. It is
:04:20. > :04:24.still a significant amount of money. Even if you look at it like, if you
:04:24. > :04:29.can do it and can you get the quality, when you are earning only
:04:29. > :04:34.a dollar a day? First of all government schools are often
:04:34. > :04:39.officially free, for charges of textbooks and other hidden costs,
:04:39. > :04:43.some Soames when you add those up they come to up to 80% of a place
:04:43. > :04:49.in the low-cost private school. That is a factor to take into
:04:49. > :04:51.account. Also, most people across the developed world and people in
:04:51. > :04:56.the middle class have a choice where they send their children to
:04:56. > :05:01.school. It is patronising to say to the poor people you only have once
:05:01. > :05:05.was, the governments cool, and if it is no good... Are before we get
:05:05. > :05:12.on to the arguments. Are there hidden has cost in the schools?
:05:12. > :05:17.Books? The first investment we have made is in Ghana, and there are no
:05:17. > :05:21.hidden costs. The children pay day. They walk into the school with a
:05:21. > :05:26.wristband. That is based on consultation with the parents in
:05:26. > :05:34.the area, rather than paying out a lump sum coarsely. They would
:05:34. > :05:38.rather pay a small amount every day. This includes a meal and books and
:05:38. > :05:45.everything. I may have got for something wrong but they get two
:05:45. > :05:51.days a year. If they cannot pay one day a week it is not a problem.
:05:51. > :05:54.Pearson, this is about making money? For Pearson, this is about
:05:54. > :05:58.demonstrating that full profit education can provide higher
:05:58. > :06:04.quality at lower cost to poor people across the developing world.
:06:04. > :06:08.It is absolute before profit. important to demonstrate profit
:06:08. > :06:13.because we want other investors to come in. It is not a huge part, as
:06:13. > :06:16.you mentioned. It is a small amount of money but we want to demonstrate
:06:16. > :06:20.that profit education can work in the developing world figures we see
:06:20. > :06:23.a huge need and when you ask parents what they want they say
:06:23. > :06:27.they want a good quality education and in government schools they
:06:27. > :06:32.often see a poor education. As soon as they get some extra money they
:06:32. > :06:37.choose to pay for it. So you need to show that full coffered works?
:06:37. > :06:47.For Pearson, that will go back to shareholders denied the Prophet
:06:47. > :06:51.will be made by the school's -- the profit. So you do not get some sort
:06:51. > :06:58.of return from that direct return? We are not doing any training in
:06:58. > :07:04.the short-term, we want to do mischief the full profit and
:07:04. > :07:07.education. I just want to nail down have this Asali works so people can
:07:07. > :07:11.understand. You put this money in it expecting some point in the
:07:11. > :07:15.future you will get a capital gain from this over the future because
:07:15. > :07:20.you will sell it on to another investor? Maybe in ten years' time,
:07:20. > :07:24.it will go back to the owners of the school. Who knows. But you are
:07:24. > :07:34.not expecting some dividend? We are not trying to get a monthly return
:07:34. > :07:40.on the land. His part of the deal that they should buy Pearson items?
:07:40. > :07:45.The Pearson is a huge global enterprise. And there is no quid
:07:45. > :07:49.pro quo that you expect something in return? No. If that is what the
:07:49. > :07:54.school wants to do they can do that but we are not going to make that
:07:54. > :07:59.demand. OK. To get to the... You make the Pyongyang it is
:07:59. > :08:05.patronising to suggest it is the poorest in the world who should not
:08:05. > :08:08.have these first -- point. There is an argument that what you are doing
:08:08. > :08:12.and demise a government system. The head of the citizen at Save the
:08:12. > :08:15.Children says it diverts attention away from the problem is even if
:08:15. > :08:21.you have this sector as a low-cost it is not doing anything to address
:08:22. > :08:29.the more fundamental problem and that is that you could be driving
:08:29. > :08:34.down costs. Many people, governs the cells, aid agencies, the people
:08:34. > :08:37.who do lots of work, all of these people investing and that is right.
:08:37. > :08:45.Pearson words for governments all over the world. How are you
:08:45. > :08:48.undermine what they are doing? have worked for government. It is a
:08:48. > :08:58.huge part of solving the edge case of chances of a citizen in the
:08:58. > :09:05.developing world. -- education. -- education. And we have to improve
:09:05. > :09:09.government systems. That is good but there is lots of investment
:09:09. > :09:14.there. The low-cost private sector it is undoubtedly part of the
:09:14. > :09:18.solution. Remember what I said - 70% of the chosen in Delhi are in a
:09:18. > :09:22.low-cost private schools. Even if you make the public sector perfect
:09:22. > :09:25.and it is a long way from that there was will be pounds to one
:09:25. > :09:30.CT's low-cost private so we are investing in that. We are in favour
:09:30. > :09:33.of people investing in that. Just the low-cost private schools are
:09:33. > :09:38.cheaper per person than the government system. Before we look
:09:38. > :09:44.at that and the quality, ideally, would the state be providing
:09:44. > :09:48.education it would they be providing that for free? In an
:09:48. > :09:53.ideal world I would like the government to provide free
:09:53. > :09:58.education for everybody but also I would like somebody to be able to
:09:58. > :10:02.choose and on a school with the option of choice. I know you do not
:10:03. > :10:06.like a false dichotomy but what you are actually doing is trying to
:10:06. > :10:10.prove that an expanded market have been profit education and there
:10:10. > :10:14.will be some, there are people who say and suggest that what are you
:10:14. > :10:20.try to do? You are getting to the point way you are going to
:10:20. > :10:28.effectively control litigation and a government will say let's
:10:28. > :10:31.contracted out -- education. Maybe they will be contracting out the
:10:31. > :10:36.citizen to non profit organisations but the most important thing is
:10:36. > :10:40.that governors, instead of saying all they have to do is fix the
:10:40. > :10:45.government sector, they should ask the question, how do we get all of
:10:45. > :10:53.the children a good it isn't as fast as possible? We are going to
:10:53. > :11:00.have 9 billion people on the 19 planet in 2050. This will only be
:11:00. > :11:09.done if we get an improved education system. If you work to
:11:09. > :11:12.win the argument, people need to know the intentions of Pearson. An
:11:12. > :11:18.influential American commentator says sees opposes the idea is to
:11:18. > :11:23.get the system up and running and then get the governors to foot the
:11:23. > :11:26.bill. -- the government. This implies there is a global
:11:26. > :11:30.domination. Education around the world is a huge enterprise. More
:11:30. > :11:36.and more money is going in and I think governments for the for
:11:36. > :11:39.fierce all future should be the major provider of education. -- the
:11:39. > :11:43.foreseeable. I work with governments all the time to help
:11:43. > :11:46.them in improving their tickets in systems and I am in favour of
:11:46. > :11:50.governance but there are many parents across the developing world
:11:50. > :11:53.who cannot get the good education they need and are choosing a low-
:11:54. > :11:57.cost private schools. If we invest in some of those changes we can
:11:57. > :12:03.demonstrate that you can get high quality, consistent, good education
:12:03. > :12:11.as a low cost. That is what we want to demonstrate. It is one part of
:12:11. > :12:15.the solicitor in developing countries. -- the solution.
:12:15. > :12:18.person says there must be some questions raised about the
:12:18. > :12:22.ideological concern that is provided. What kind of teachers
:12:22. > :12:27.will be hired for the school's? Will they be teachers or computer
:12:27. > :12:34.monitors? Could they also equally the teachers with different agendas.
:12:34. > :12:44.How can you ensure the quality? you are providing a suitcase and in
:12:44. > :12:50.any country, there are some regulatory obligations -- education.
:12:50. > :12:56.Pearson or any other provider, and we are in a minority stake, any
:12:56. > :12:59.provider needs to work with in a regulatory framework. The
:12:59. > :13:02.curriculum will be set by the country they are in and the
:13:02. > :13:09.teachers will be good young people who are going to turn up and do a
:13:09. > :13:15.good job. In Bangladesh, there is a wonderful n g o which you may have
:13:15. > :13:19.heard of, a fantastic organisation, which runs 30,000 primary schools.
:13:19. > :13:23.They are not for profit but they outside of the government sector.
:13:23. > :13:27.The people they recruit a genuinely young women from their local
:13:27. > :13:31.community who have a good secondary education, who are reliable and
:13:31. > :13:35.turn up every day, trained well, get mentored well and do a
:13:35. > :13:39.fantastic job. If you go to those caused you will see the children
:13:39. > :13:45.happy and learning. If he did to his school that his government in
:13:45. > :13:53.the same area you will not see that. But the idea is that if you do not
:13:53. > :14:00.have a government, the example you have cited is a not-for-profit
:14:00. > :14:05.organisation. You are a former Labour candidate. Here you are,
:14:05. > :14:11.arguing and saying that we have to show that for profit works. A
:14:11. > :14:17.comfortable are you with that? You know that people will be suspicious
:14:17. > :14:22.that he may be just about to make some money. I am comfortable with
:14:23. > :14:26.this. The burning passion for me and for Pearson is that there is a
:14:26. > :14:30.burning issue right now of millions of certain around the world who are
:14:30. > :14:36.not getting the education they need. They need it now, not in ten years'
:14:36. > :14:43.time. If you look at youth and farmed in places like Pakistan,
:14:43. > :14:47.North Africa, this is a huge social issue that is very urgent. I hope
:14:48. > :14:51.we will work with governments to improve their systems but in the
:14:51. > :14:56.meantime we have millions of parents across India, Pakistan,
:14:56. > :15:01.rock abaca, choosing low-cost private schools. What is wrong with
:15:01. > :15:08.the investment to improve and get consistency and scare and get what
:15:08. > :15:14.the parents want? They know it is important. We are going to help the
:15:14. > :15:23.parents get that. Or what if you do not get it right? If you are in the
:15:23. > :15:27.investor... I did not be from that I am wandering about the millions
:15:27. > :15:32.who don't get an education. Let's get back and take that broad
:15:32. > :15:36.question. Take climate change, the future of the economy, War and
:15:36. > :15:41.Peace, the distribution of wealth around the planet. All of these
:15:41. > :15:44.things are huge problems. Take conflict. Take the risk of nuclear
:15:44. > :15:49.weapons and all those other things getting into the wrong hands. All
:15:49. > :15:54.the problems we know about. I'm not saying education can solve those,
:15:54. > :15:57.but I am saying this. Education is a key part to the solution. Unless,
:15:57. > :16:04.as a global community, we really improve the quality of education,
:16:04. > :16:09.we have very big problems ahead. I'm pleased we're making progress.
:16:09. > :16:16.I hope we get close. Can we meet them? We're too were three years
:16:16. > :16:21.away. I think it will be a push but everybody should get behind them.
:16:21. > :16:26.It is global with the right will in the right countries. And the
:16:26. > :16:32.private secretary is part of that solution? A cause. Take the work I
:16:32. > :16:41.had been doing with the minister in Punjab in Pakistan. His in Roman
:16:41. > :16:44.drive has been focused on, not can I get these children out of
:16:44. > :16:52.governments caused him to those close calls, it is, let's get
:16:52. > :16:55.children who are out of schools, into schools. -- enrolment drive.
:16:55. > :16:59.We have thought about peace and being, well, it describes itself as
:16:59. > :17:05.the world's leading learning -- Learning Company. It provides
:17:05. > :17:09.training, funding for schools. It also have an opportunity, with the
:17:09. > :17:13.dramatic reforms going on in the British scoring system, to actually
:17:13. > :17:23.run schools. It could set up a free school. Would pierce and be
:17:23. > :17:28.interested? I just want to make this point. There are 7 billion
:17:28. > :17:30.people in on the earth now. It is growing. The demands of the labour
:17:30. > :17:35.market is such that each of those people need to learn more and
:17:35. > :17:39.better than ever before to succeed as a citizen in the fast-moving
:17:39. > :17:44.world. The demand for education is going to be vast out there. Tears
:17:44. > :17:49.and will be part of that. They are beat people we want to serve. --
:17:49. > :17:55.Pearson. One of the things we're obsessed with is not just where
:17:55. > :18:01.that our products satisfied consumers, it is whether they
:18:01. > :18:06.achieved outcomes. That is part of my job. Just to come to the British
:18:06. > :18:11.example, massive changes going on, with these three schools set up one
:18:11. > :18:14.year ago is based on a Swedish model. The idea is that a score is
:18:14. > :18:21.free of constraints typically that have been on it, but still funded
:18:21. > :18:25.by the state. In one sense I can see you, given your history, as
:18:25. > :18:30.someone being interested in that idea. Right. Just to make this
:18:30. > :18:35.clear for viewers, I was a big part of the Tony Blair administration
:18:35. > :18:39.of's education reforms. We have had a 20-year trend towards the
:18:39. > :18:43.devolution of resources, autonomy to score level. That is a good
:18:43. > :18:50.thing. The growth of the academies which are a bit like charter
:18:50. > :18:58.schools and now the free schools where individuals can come into the
:18:58. > :19:02.system's that is good. For Pearson specifically, the regulatory does
:19:02. > :19:07.not allow for the private sector to set up pre-schools. And it does not
:19:07. > :19:13.a priority for us. You have pointed out the regulatory framework, but
:19:13. > :19:18.the Swedish model does. There is an expectation that it may be a matter
:19:18. > :19:22.of time. Is that right? Is there an inevitability that three schools
:19:22. > :19:29.will be able to be run for profit? I don't think it is remotely
:19:29. > :19:39.evitable. There is one freeze call we have been supporting. -- free
:19:39. > :19:39.
:19:39. > :19:43.this call. -- school. I personally have been argued in favour of this
:19:43. > :19:49.back when I was in the Tony Blair administration. I am in favour of
:19:49. > :19:54.it. I didn't win the argument inside. You didn't win. Was it the
:19:54. > :19:58.unions? Tony Blair? You were his education guru. It would have been
:19:58. > :20:01.a big battle in the Labour Party obviously. But my argument is this.
:20:02. > :20:07.Your job as a government is to get children a good education as fast
:20:07. > :20:15.as possible. I was arguing, where you have poorly performing schools,
:20:15. > :20:23.finding ways to replace them. was the point of academies. And the
:20:23. > :20:27.academies did that. For Pearson, it is not a priority, this is not
:20:27. > :20:31.something we are urging government to do. Wearing dialogue with
:20:31. > :20:35.government about a range of things but this is not a priority. But you
:20:35. > :20:39.would like to see it move towards profit? A I have always thought
:20:39. > :20:44.that should be an option, particularly for replacing failing
:20:44. > :20:49.schools. That is what I have argued in the past. The jury is still out
:20:49. > :20:54.on academies, because of the various ways of testing. As it is
:20:54. > :20:57.on three schools. Clearly the jury is out on freeze caused because the
:20:57. > :21:04.first one just finished the academic year. Some of those are
:21:04. > :21:09.very experimental. The jury is still out on a free schools. But
:21:09. > :21:11.the idea you can set up a school if you have a good idea and there is
:21:11. > :21:21.some parental demand, seems to be extending Choice, giving parents
:21:21. > :21:22.
:21:22. > :21:25.the opportunity. It seems very sensible. I am curious about this.
:21:25. > :21:31.When people look at the record of tartar scores in the United States,
:21:31. > :21:35.or in Sweden, it is still not school they are successful. --
:21:35. > :21:38.charter. It belly round some academies are undoubtedly
:21:38. > :21:43.outperforming the rest of the system. -- the early round. A par
:21:43. > :21:50.les? When you look at the data you get different arguments. -- are
:21:50. > :22:00.they. We will see the A-levels in August. I want to say another thing.
:22:00. > :22:02.
:22:02. > :22:07.I have looked at data on charter schools in the US. If you have a
:22:07. > :22:10.general answer, our charter schools outperforming all public schools?
:22:10. > :22:16.You're not going to find that answer. The policy on its own is
:22:16. > :22:21.not the answer. What is the Academy doing? How do they work? You need
:22:21. > :22:28.to translate that around. The good chains are undoubtedly having
:22:28. > :22:35.better results. The United Learning Trust. Ark. The Harrods group in
:22:35. > :22:40.South London. These are excellent groups. -- Harris. If you go to
:22:40. > :22:45.Hackney, which is where I have lived for much of the 30 years, it
:22:45. > :22:50.used to be known as the worst education system in England. Back
:22:50. > :22:55.in 1995 I was involved in the closure of Hackney Downs school.
:22:55. > :22:59.Now it outperforms many other schools. The EU find yourself in a
:22:59. > :23:08.strange situation of telling the Conservative education secretary to
:23:08. > :23:11.go for it, to push further? -- do you find. When I look back on the
:23:11. > :23:15.Tony Blair administration, and if I think you asked Tony Blair, he
:23:15. > :23:20.would give the same answer was up I don't think we went fast enough. We
:23:20. > :23:23.should have gone further. I cannot impress enough on you how much I
:23:23. > :23:27.think it is important that we improve the quality of education,
:23:27. > :23:32.not just here, but around the world. I think we could have gone further.
:23:32. > :23:36.We could have gone faster. Is it unions and their vested interests
:23:36. > :23:43.holding the country back? There unions all around the world and
:23:43. > :23:47.they take varying positions. I don't want to sweep them away in a
:23:47. > :23:51.broad brush. But we need people in our systems used see the importance
:23:51. > :23:54.of improving the quality of education rapidly to give young
:23:54. > :23:58.people the best chance they can have in life. Obviously in any
:23:58. > :24:04.large system there are people afraid of change we defend the
:24:04. > :24:09.status quo, and who find change difficult. I guess it happens in