:00:12. > :00:16.Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk. What is and is the most?
:00:16. > :00:22.Are a potentially dangerous extremism or an activist whose
:00:22. > :00:27.Muslim of faith is central to their political vision? My guess is in
:00:27. > :00:34.the thick of that controversial debate. Maajid Nawaz is a Muslim
:00:34. > :00:40.who became a radical Islamist. He was arrested in Hosni Mubarak's
:00:40. > :00:48.hijab. When released, he launched a campaign to counter Islamist
:00:48. > :00:58.ideology. To some he is a truth teller, to others a traitor. How
:00:58. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:25.Maajid Nawaz, Aidan Guerra to HARDtalk. I alluded to an
:01:25. > :01:29.extraordinary life story which has taking you to -- from rebellious
:01:29. > :01:34.streak in in a typical English down to a diehard of radical Islamist
:01:34. > :01:41.and now to some body absolutely committed to the political fight
:01:41. > :01:45.against Islamism. Are you convinced that you have found yourself now?
:01:45. > :01:49.Anyone who hasn't read my autobiography will end up with that
:01:49. > :01:53.conclusion that I have. The reason I say that is when you arrive at
:01:53. > :01:59.radical political thinking, you cannot accommodate all views as
:01:59. > :02:05.long as all views tolerate each other. It is pretty easy to accept
:02:05. > :02:09.differences at that stage. You remind me of of the famous
:02:10. > :02:15.historian who declared the end of history and, of course, we have
:02:15. > :02:21.seen plenty of history cents. Maybe there are things that can shake
:02:21. > :02:25.your current belief? I do not think liberalism is Western. I do not
:02:25. > :02:30.think we have reached the end of history. I think that human
:02:30. > :02:34.civilisation is the combination of building upon what we learnt as
:02:34. > :02:39.human beings from other civilisations. Even democracy,
:02:39. > :02:44.originating in Greece, was preserved fruit and berries
:02:44. > :02:50.cultures. The idea that Muslims are rebound is ingrained in the fact
:02:50. > :02:55.that Islam does not have a clergy so there is no one official version.
:02:55. > :03:01.There is nothing un-Islamic or unease and about tolerance. We're
:03:01. > :03:08.going to talk about Islam and politics. The relationship between
:03:08. > :03:14.the two. You were raised in a Muslim family in the UK. Are you an
:03:14. > :03:20.observant Muslim? I would not hold myself out as a role-model. I am
:03:20. > :03:23.not devout in any shape or form. Are you observed and? I do nothing
:03:24. > :03:30.that term has very much meaning because everyone is a sinner. I
:03:30. > :03:36.will pray and fast but I will not hold myself out as a role-model. I
:03:36. > :03:39.am not speaking religion at all. I'm speaking politics, of the
:03:39. > :03:48.dangers when one's view of religion is an force in the political sphere.
:03:48. > :03:51.It is difficult. You are in an area where everything is complicated. It
:03:51. > :03:56.seems to me one of the complications his personal
:03:56. > :04:02.relationships are tied up with identity and religion and politics.
:04:02. > :04:09.For example, since you have made your transformation, what have your
:04:09. > :04:14.personal relationships been like with family, for example - have
:04:14. > :04:19.some of them senior as a traitor? Might entire social life, including
:04:19. > :04:22.my marriage, were with people that belong to my former organisation.
:04:22. > :04:28.As somebody leaves a grip like that and becomes heavily critical of
:04:28. > :04:31.that group, it has an impact on the relationships. I do not wanted this
:04:31. > :04:36.respect those X family members or riven current family members and
:04:36. > :04:42.they remain sympathetic to the is a must ideology. What I will say, by
:04:42. > :04:48.criticising those used in public, they are no longer sympathetic to
:04:48. > :04:52.me in and doing that work. As soon as you reach the decision of
:04:52. > :04:57.renunciation of your previously held political views and ideology,
:04:57. > :05:02.you knew, that your relationship, for example, with your wife had to
:05:02. > :05:07.be over by definition? I have written about that. That is what I
:05:07. > :05:11.have said. It is a decision that nobody can make lightly. So many
:05:11. > :05:16.people believe is Ms organisations do not then go on to speak about it
:05:16. > :05:21.in public because it has a social cost. It has an impact an effect on
:05:21. > :05:25.the relationship they have built up over 10, 15 years of your life. It
:05:25. > :05:28.is then not easy to make a conscious decision to say, I'm
:05:28. > :05:32.going to speak about something I believe in and change what I used
:05:32. > :05:37.to believe in but I am aware it will have a cost of my friendships
:05:37. > :05:41.and relationships. I do not blame anyone for not taking that extras
:05:41. > :05:48.that knowing that is the consequence of it. Let's start at
:05:48. > :05:53.the beginning of your journey in it the small town of Southend in the
:05:53. > :06:00.south-east Coast of England. What was it about your upbringing, do
:06:00. > :06:06.you think, that led to open to the radical message? Was at
:06:06. > :06:10.victimisation, racism? There was a lot of serious and violent racism I
:06:10. > :06:16.experienced as a teenager. Attacks with hammers screwdrivers and nice.
:06:17. > :06:23.There was police, institutional discrimination. These grievances I
:06:23. > :06:27.maintained are insufficient as the only explanation for the process of
:06:27. > :06:32.someone going towards extremism. Something else has to happen. Not
:06:32. > :06:39.everyone that experiences racism joins extremists. In addition to
:06:39. > :06:45.these grievances, I'm not excluding them, I sought at narrative that
:06:45. > :06:49.tells people these grievances, and these races and so are simply
:06:49. > :06:54.because I am a Muslim and in that I find solidarity with Muslims across
:06:54. > :06:58.the world who are also targeted simply because they're Muslim. A
:06:58. > :07:06.narrative emerges that Muslims are for all over the world and the
:07:06. > :07:10.anyway to defend them is to fight back and defend them across the
:07:10. > :07:16.world. The remorse and civil a great deal of sympathy and
:07:16. > :07:21.political support for fellow Moors and suffering in other parts of the
:07:21. > :07:25.well without going the step you just go? That is true. There is the
:07:25. > :07:31.difference between those who joined his almost organisations and those
:07:31. > :07:35.who do not. Coming back to my question. Why did you make that
:07:35. > :07:41.step to believe that the only responsible answer for a Muslim his
:07:41. > :07:49.active support and political duty to try and achieve this notion of a
:07:50. > :07:56.cover for it? In general, Barack a few factors that lead into -- there
:07:56. > :08:01.are few factors that lead to this. An acute sense of identity crisis,
:08:01. > :08:07.not knowing whether I was British or Pakistanis or indeed Muslim.
:08:07. > :08:10.These identities all came to a head and the 4th factor is a came across
:08:10. > :08:18.a charismatic recruiter who was able to join the dots for me. I
:08:18. > :08:24.wasn't angry 15 year-old, running from hammer attacks and dodging
:08:24. > :08:31.police discrimination. The days before the mack fees and report. It
:08:31. > :08:38.was a tempting narrative to explain to the grief, including in Bosnia.
:08:38. > :08:43.If I may 0.2 and a story, you and your older brother, after a series
:08:43. > :08:47.of skirmishes in your home town, you were confronting them one more
:08:47. > :08:52.time and looked as though you were in for a very physical fight and
:08:52. > :08:57.your older brother took charge and he managed to persuade these young
:08:57. > :09:01.white kits to walk away in a way you were clearly impressed by. In
:09:01. > :09:06.the retelling of that story, can you explain to me what it did to
:09:06. > :09:10.your mind said? We were surrounded and outnumbered and out what a nice,
:09:11. > :09:17.if you like, I pretty much sought we were about to get completely
:09:17. > :09:25.beaten to a pulp. My brother step forward, he called the leader over
:09:25. > :09:30.to the other side of the road. He said to the leader, these were near
:09:30. > :09:35.announces paramilitaries, and is said to this man, you may outnumber
:09:35. > :09:41.us, you may have more weapons than us but in my back here, I have a
:09:41. > :09:46.bomb. If you choose to attack us, I will take you out and we were all
:09:46. > :09:50.died but we do not fear death. My mother had adopted this is a this
:09:50. > :09:54.narrative very year and had been attempted to recruit me and I had
:09:54. > :09:57.been refusing because I did dot essentially one to change my last
:09:57. > :10:04.off. When I saw this, I saw the immediate results than a narrative
:10:04. > :10:09.could achieve, essentially a propaganda they can strike fear in
:10:09. > :10:16.the hearts of your enemy. I realise that this was a form of protection
:10:16. > :10:21.and identity that could achieve results. Again, as a 15 year-old,
:10:21. > :10:24.it started to make sense. In the early Nineties and mid-Nineties,
:10:24. > :10:31.Islamism was a revolutionary ideology of so many Muslims across
:10:31. > :10:38.the world. If we fast forward, why then, when you were stuck in this
:10:38. > :10:48.Egyptian prison, you had become an activist for Feteesha. You had gone
:10:48. > :10:49.
:10:49. > :10:57.around trying to recruit -- activist for Reed -- Hizb ut-Tahir.
:10:57. > :11:03.Why did due after being stuck in prison, why did your commitment we
:11:03. > :11:08.can? I could have founded the group in four countries. I was 24. Very
:11:08. > :11:15.young. When I entered prison, two things happen which began the five
:11:15. > :11:17.new process of me unravelling my political ideology. They were - the
:11:17. > :11:24.amnesty International adopted me and began campaigning for my
:11:24. > :11:27.release. I really truly appreciated what I had defined as the other
:11:27. > :11:31.campaigning for my rights even though I believe them to be my
:11:31. > :11:40.enemy and the enemy of my people. That began a very humanisation
:11:40. > :11:45.process. I started to empathise with the other. Why? Hosni Mubarak
:11:45. > :11:48.security organisations were arresting huge number of Muslim
:11:48. > :11:55.Brotherhood supporters, people they feed could undermine their grip on
:11:55. > :12:02.power. You were one of them. Many of them reacted to being turned
:12:02. > :12:06.into prisoners of conscience by hardening their political struggle.
:12:06. > :12:12.But you do not harden your commitment. In fact, you lost your
:12:12. > :12:18.commitment. I was actually involved quite heavily in the injured prop -
:12:19. > :12:28.- uprising. Mike commitment to overthrowing dictators has remained
:12:28. > :12:36.what I changed is the ideology. In fact, I have been at Tate --
:12:36. > :12:40.attacked for all my anti- Hosni Mubarak attitudes. You seem to
:12:40. > :12:45.suggest it was not a bad thing that the Egyptian court had dissolved
:12:45. > :12:50.the parliament which as a result of a democratic election was dominated
:12:50. > :12:55.by a Muslim Brotherhood. What I said was, we need the Democratic
:12:55. > :13:00.Trinity to be rooted in Egyptian society - culture, institutions and
:13:00. > :13:04.processes. What I said was that if people were worried the Brotherhood
:13:04. > :13:08.were dominating the political thing, they should not be because they no
:13:08. > :13:14.longer control parliament. I will not ever contradict the will of the
:13:14. > :13:24.Egyptian people to say they have no right to elect who they won. When
:13:24. > :13:26.
:13:26. > :13:30.you talk about the fears of a is a mistake over, -- Islamist take over,
:13:30. > :13:35.in various different ways we have seen the Muslim Brotherhood of
:13:35. > :13:41.playing an important role in the post revolutionary process and yet
:13:41. > :13:45.we see democracy is winning out. The Muslim Brotherhood forces are
:13:45. > :13:55.highly adaptable, highly flexible and appear, at the moment, to be
:13:55. > :14:02.
:14:02. > :14:08.In Egypt and Tunisia, if we take the Tunisian example, their
:14:08. > :14:11.experience at consoles. The Brotherhood, within their own
:14:11. > :14:15.organisation, had the ability to progress at the on that line.
:14:15. > :14:21.People are ratcheting the fear mongering are subscribing to the
:14:21. > :14:25.neoconservative models. I'm trying to calm those he is down. I find it
:14:25. > :14:33.strange that you are saying that I am end framing those fears. I had
:14:33. > :14:37.been reading a lot of things. Looking back at some of the estate
:14:37. > :14:47.MS, I am sure you will remember, when one of Britain's leading
:14:47. > :14:47.
:14:47. > :14:55.newspapers got hold of a document which was said to be from your
:14:55. > :15:00.organisation, one of the quotes are from this document was the ideology
:15:00. > :15:07.that it is similar to violence but disagree on tactics. Do you still
:15:07. > :15:13.believe that? Those who desire to impose an interpretation of Islam
:15:13. > :15:23.over society is the definition of Islam are used in the document. I
:15:23. > :15:27.
:15:27. > :15:32.still believe in does. -- this. The difference is Al-Qaeda attempted to
:15:32. > :15:36.director terrorism said they are bad. Muslim Brotherhood attempt to
:15:36. > :15:45.do it in a democracy. We expect the will of the Egyptian people to
:15:45. > :15:50.elect them. I am very confused. Are you telling me that you still see
:15:50. > :15:54.the people who are carrying power in Egypt, including the President
:15:54. > :15:59.and the dominant forces in the Egyptian parliament, as broadly as
:15:59. > :16:05.the same as the violence is a nurse but they differ in tactics? That is
:16:05. > :16:11.not what we were saying. It is what you said. I asked you if he
:16:11. > :16:16.retracted it. You can have communist who are militant and
:16:16. > :16:20.communist-run not militant. They still believed in communism. The
:16:20. > :16:24.difference in some believe in violence and others believe the net
:16:24. > :16:29.three election. That is the same as his long. For you to sit there and
:16:29. > :16:35.say that I am attempting to equate the brotherhood with the Al-Qaeda
:16:35. > :16:45.when I clearly said we should refrain from interfering in
:16:45. > :16:50.
:16:50. > :16:54.politics... It is rather odd. not trying to plant any notion in
:16:54. > :17:00.your head or the audience's head. I am China makes sense in what you
:17:00. > :17:10.have changed. He can be a communist and Lytton and a communist and not
:17:10. > :17:13.
:17:13. > :17:18.a militant. But you still believe in the same ideology. I have
:17:18. > :17:23.suffered personally. When you try and explain to me how you develop
:17:23. > :17:29.to ideas from that particular quote that I mention, are you telling me
:17:29. > :17:32.that you regard people like Muhammad more see as a man you can
:17:32. > :17:36.trust or a man you have to fundamentally distressed because he
:17:36. > :17:42.is still part of the Islamists move maybe who you say in ideological
:17:42. > :17:47.terms is broadly similar to groups like Al-Qaeda? I distrust every
:17:47. > :17:53.politician. I am saying some politicians a power-hungry. And
:17:53. > :17:59.there are some who are distressed because of their ideologically but
:17:59. > :18:02.they may not necessarily be corrupt. My concern with is the most
:18:02. > :18:08.politicians is not their corruption necessarily, my concern is the
:18:08. > :18:12.values and ideas they believe in. Tunisia have evolved. We must
:18:12. > :18:18.constantly be vigilance and scrutinised the values and conducts
:18:18. > :18:22.of every politician. What about the British Islamic -- Islamist
:18:22. > :18:32.institutions which you organisation Spencer much time and energy
:18:32. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :18:48.criticising. In the same memo, having changed your mind about it
:18:48. > :18:55.
:18:55. > :19:05.being dominated by the is a must ideologies? -- is a must. We need
:19:05. > :19:05.
:19:05. > :19:09.see engage with. I believe in the citizenship. The only issue in this
:19:09. > :19:15.document is whether you are justified in calling them extreme s
:19:15. > :19:18.and by clear indication at saying they're dangerous. The Muslim
:19:18. > :19:28.community is made for many different views. It would be
:19:28. > :19:30.
:19:30. > :19:34.incorrect but anyone to say as a whole the organisation is extremist.
:19:34. > :19:37.We should not treat them as a separate entity from the rest of
:19:37. > :19:42.the country. That is unhealthy for us Muslims themselves. There has
:19:42. > :19:46.been a big debate in recent years about the degree to which to
:19:46. > :19:50.understand extreme ideologies within the Muslim communities, you
:19:50. > :19:56.have to understand the anger and the nationalist feeling that comes,
:19:56. > :20:04.for example, with Western policies in Iraq. Do you believe that is
:20:04. > :20:10.important? Absolutely. When you have suggested there is a pathway
:20:10. > :20:15.from his Israel identity politics through to vocalisation, through to
:20:15. > :20:20.extremism, through to violence, which does not pay accounts to this
:20:20. > :20:26.anger that comes from Western actions in countries like Iraq - it
:20:26. > :20:36.is misleading. I don't understand how it doesn't. Read a close Asian
:20:36. > :20:37.
:20:37. > :20:45.is caused by a combination of grievances, charismatic group would
:20:45. > :20:53.charismatic recruiters and a loss of identity. Identity crisis are
:20:53. > :20:58.real. People are starting to embrace people are different skin
:20:58. > :21:01.colour is in Britain. When I was growing up, it was not as inclusive.
:21:01. > :21:06.Chaz magic recruiters need to be challenged. These factors need to
:21:06. > :21:09.be addressed. You talk about the work you're doing. It has been
:21:09. > :21:13.difficult for you are organisation because government funding has been
:21:13. > :21:22.taken away. Your organisation was very heavily dependent on
:21:22. > :21:27.government money. He �3 million over three years. When we founded
:21:27. > :21:35.the organisation, we were 80% funded by public grants. Including
:21:35. > :21:40.many other organisations. We were heavily funded by public funds.
:21:40. > :21:44.That was cut in December, 2010. It was because we disagreed, at the
:21:44. > :21:48.time, with the direction the Government was headed. Now that the
:21:48. > :21:52.strategy has changed and the policy of the government has changed, we
:21:52. > :21:55.have revitalised those relationships. But we are now
:21:55. > :22:01.worried % privately funded. It allows me to do the work without
:22:01. > :22:06.having to face questions about which government is funding year.
:22:06. > :22:09.To be clear about it, when your opponents or say you were heavily
:22:09. > :22:16.influenced by the government because you're taking govern money,
:22:16. > :22:20.that was true to a certain extent. When we began realising, when we
:22:20. > :22:27.began facing some of the challenges in the discussion, we did not
:22:27. > :22:32.compromise. That is to our credit. We went out on alien to say we did
:22:32. > :22:38.not agree with this aspect of the policy. -- on 8 million. As a
:22:38. > :22:44.result, the relationship ended. you think de Arab Spring has
:22:44. > :22:53.fundamentally changed mind steps in the West as well? And some of
:22:53. > :23:00.beefier when your organisation was founded, that fear has dissipated.
:23:00. > :23:05.-- some of the here. The Middle East has proven to be much more
:23:05. > :23:09.flexible and tolerant than you would have expected. Not just me.
:23:09. > :23:14.Tunisia were always quite flexible and adaptable. The fear element
:23:14. > :23:19.which I have been trying to calm down with my articles, I've written
:23:19. > :23:25.in many different publications, I had been trying to say to people
:23:25. > :23:29.that it is not as bad as you here. These organisations do not form the
:23:29. > :23:33.majority of the society. They are constrained by other political
:23:33. > :23:43.parties and institutions. Many of the groups have shown an
:23:43. > :23:45.
:23:45. > :23:51.inclination of ditching the idea... I have never paddled a conveyor
:23:51. > :23:56.belt idea. Non-violent action isn't is a problem within itself. If
:23:56. > :24:03.racism exists in society, whether at least a violent racism or not it
:24:03. > :24:13.is still a problem. Like Wales -- likewise with business. If someone
:24:13. > :24:15.
:24:15. > :24:21.believes in the an idea it is a problem for society. It needs to be