:00:02. > :00:10.lifeboats, will continue for as long as the tide is out.
:00:10. > :00:13.Those are the main stories, now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:13. > :00:19.The expenses scandal tarnished those are the very heart of British
:00:19. > :00:24.democracy. Some politicians were shown to be greedy, and a few were
:00:24. > :00:28.criminals. And all went to jail. One of those is that the former
:00:28. > :00:32.leader of Essex County Council, Lord Huntingfield. Why did he do
:00:32. > :00:40.it? Is there something wrong with Britain's political culture and
:00:40. > :00:50.those are going to politics? What lessons can a lawmaker learned in
:00:50. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:11.prison? Lord Howe Enfield, welcome to
:01:11. > :01:16.HARDtalk. Why did you fiddle your expenses? -- Lord Hannigfield.
:01:16. > :01:22.didn't think I was. I thought what I was doing was okayed by the rules.
:01:22. > :01:25.I wouldn't have fiddled expenses if I thought it would ruin my career
:01:25. > :01:28.and I had never done anything criminal in my life. The case
:01:28. > :01:33.against you was clear, it was six charges under the Theft Act, which
:01:33. > :01:38.puts what you did for a par with stealing lead from a church roof or
:01:38. > :01:43.shoplifting. I hadn't a clue - no- one told me anything like that. I
:01:43. > :01:48.hadn't a clue that I was doing anything like that. You were
:01:48. > :01:52.arrested and charged it and went to jail. I am wondering, at the moment
:01:52. > :01:57.of your arrest, what was going through your mind? What did you
:01:57. > :02:02.feel about this? The worst part - it was over three years ago now -
:02:03. > :02:08.was when it all broke. I didn't think I had done anything wrong and
:02:08. > :02:15.it was like a tsunami, if you like, hitting me. This was before the
:02:15. > :02:19.arrest and before the trial. It was the early part of the media furore
:02:19. > :02:23.about the investigation of expenses. Not just me, but all the colleagues
:02:23. > :02:27.in both Houses of Parliament. surprised that you say you didn't
:02:27. > :02:37.know you did anything wrong or that anybody was up to it. Not everyone
:02:37. > :02:37.
:02:37. > :03:52.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 74 seconds
:03:52. > :03:55.From what you've said, you clearly don't understand, the police don't
:03:55. > :04:02.understand. understand. You did something wrong,
:04:02. > :04:06.and you're not really facing up to it, are you? A riding we should
:04:06. > :04:10.move on, really. Because you clearly don't understand Lords'
:04:10. > :04:20.expenses. I understand Schumann behaviour, and when you spend some
:04:20. > :04:21.
:04:21. > :04:29.time in prison for a serious offence -- human. You're saying you
:04:29. > :04:32.didn't do anything wrong. I made a mistake, and I admit that. With
:04:32. > :04:36.hindsight, I wouldn't do that. I clearly didn't think I was doing
:04:36. > :04:41.anything wrong, because I loved my job, which I have lost. I would
:04:41. > :04:50.never have done anything to have jeopardised my job. People clearly
:04:50. > :04:55.didn't understand the way that Lord's' expenses operate. But you
:04:55. > :05:05.understood? No, I didn't. So it was pure ignorance? I think there was a
:05:05. > :05:06.
:05:06. > :05:12.mistake of mine. You said at one point that you did only about one
:05:12. > :05:18.minute per month of checking your expenses. We were just check our
:05:18. > :05:24.columns. 85% of the Lords did the same. 85% of the Lords did not go
:05:24. > :05:26.to jail. There were some lords who have said I should not have been
:05:26. > :05:30.her more lies in that way. I campaigned to have an inquiry as to
:05:30. > :05:38.why I was treated differently to other people. Actually, a lot of
:05:38. > :05:46.Lords paid money back. Why was I treated... To a certain extent,
:05:46. > :05:50.someone wanted one's scalp. So you were a victim? No, I am saying...
:05:50. > :05:54.But you are expressing a degree of victim would here. The taxpayers
:05:54. > :05:58.were the one paying. I was not getting paid. The were getting
:05:58. > :06:03.expenses, which she took to be paid. The taxpayers have done pretty well
:06:03. > :06:08.out of me. I have saved millions of pounds for the taxpayer. I have no
:06:08. > :06:12.qualms about that. I think my benefit to the taxpayers is
:06:12. > :06:17.something like 200 million. taxpayers were paying the money
:06:17. > :06:26.that you talk corruptly. Yes, but I have spent my life saving money for
:06:26. > :06:33.them. Oh, so it's alright? Yes, 13,000 against 200 million is OK,
:06:33. > :06:36.isn't it? Is it? Are you saying it is OK to act corruptly in a public
:06:36. > :06:41.office of public trust's I would never have behaved corruptly if I
:06:41. > :06:45.had known... But in the balance, it is fine? I have said over and over
:06:45. > :06:49.I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I wouldn't have ever done
:06:49. > :06:55.anything criminal in my life. I spent 40 years working for the
:06:55. > :07:00.public for no pay. I have subsidised it, my family, my firm,
:07:00. > :07:04.it has subsidised my 40 years of public life. I was one of the first
:07:04. > :07:09.people to bring home care took Essex. Now 30,000 people benefit
:07:09. > :07:14.from that every day. I spent hours trying to keep local post offices
:07:14. > :07:17.are open, which we managed to do. The time I spent stopping night
:07:17. > :07:23.flights over London so people could sleep, I spent my life serving the
:07:23. > :07:26.public. The taxpayers' money is spent on services. To get value for
:07:27. > :07:30.money out of those services for the benefit of the people - which I
:07:30. > :07:34.spent my life doing - I made a mistake. I wouldn't have done it if
:07:34. > :07:39.I knew I was doing it. I wouldn't have wanted to ruin my job. I
:07:39. > :07:43.regret it, and I admit I made a mistake. Why was I treated rather
:07:43. > :07:47.differently to other peers? Perhaps they should be an inquiry into it?
:07:47. > :07:53.Why was I treated differently to dozens of Piers and MPs who were
:07:53. > :07:59.able to pay money back? People have said to me that we shouldn't have
:07:59. > :08:03.an inquiry -- we should have an inquiry as to why you were treated
:08:03. > :08:07.differently and ended up in prison. Did you have a lot of friends when
:08:07. > :08:12.he went to trial who rallied around you? Yes, a lot of them. They came
:08:12. > :08:17.to court to support you? You see. We were told that only one person
:08:17. > :08:26.from Essex came to Council to support you in court. A no. You had
:08:26. > :08:31.a lot of friends to rely on? I had a dozen or so people... I did what
:08:31. > :08:34.I was advised to do by my barrister. So after 40 years in public life
:08:34. > :08:39.there was this great campaign not to send you to prison because you
:08:39. > :08:44.are so popular? Or was it, rather, as David Cameron said - he was a
:08:44. > :08:49.shame to, of the actions of some politicians, his words. He meant
:08:49. > :08:54.people like you. It's all very well. A lot of the MPs were able to pay
:08:54. > :09:01.money back, as David Cameron was. Gordon Brown was. They could pay
:09:01. > :09:04.money back. They didn't ever end up in the courts, will stop I should
:09:05. > :09:10.have been allowed to, if it wasn't for the hatred of one person, I
:09:10. > :09:13.should have been allowed to pay money back, rather than end up in
:09:13. > :09:19.prison. There is a terrible sense of victim would coming from you,
:09:19. > :09:24.isn't there? There are people against you... It was all these
:09:24. > :09:28.terrible things that were happening... I literally had
:09:28. > :09:33.hundreds, if not thousands of letters of support. I have had two
:09:33. > :09:38.nasty letters during this whole period. I have had no - I have had
:09:38. > :09:43.hundreds of people, people come up to me in the street now and say
:09:43. > :09:47.they support me. Why does the Conservative Party not support you?
:09:47. > :09:50.Obviously it is a political thing. We live in a political world.
:09:50. > :09:53.can't see this great groundswell of support in favour of you because
:09:53. > :09:58.you didn't really do anything wrong? We will see in a few years'
:09:58. > :10:02.time, won't we? I am serving my sentence and I will be working for
:10:02. > :10:12.the public again. That is what I want to do. You'll still be sitting
:10:12. > :10:18.
:10:18. > :10:21.here, but you are not in the Conservative Party. -- peer. Do you
:10:21. > :10:27.think there is something fundamentally wrong in our
:10:27. > :10:30.political system? No. I think there is something rotten in the media.
:10:30. > :10:36.Let me get this straight - the Conservative Party has abandoned
:10:36. > :10:40.you. The courts have made an example of you. One unnamed person
:10:40. > :10:44.is victimising you, now the media. Is there any point way you will
:10:44. > :10:46.realise what you have done? I don't have to be sitting here today. I'm
:10:46. > :10:50.here because I would like to try and help people through what has
:10:50. > :10:54.happened to me. I'm not very keen on the way you are speaking to me
:10:54. > :10:58.at the moment because I don't have to be sitting here. I could retract
:10:59. > :11:02.into my shelf. Say why taking responsibility for being here...
:11:02. > :11:08.am trying to learn from experience. In this country we believe in
:11:09. > :11:18.democracy. The judge said I shouldn't have been doing what I
:11:19. > :11:21.
:11:21. > :11:30.did Dommett to we have to be rich to be in a democracy? -- what I
:11:30. > :11:35.did? Do we have... I would like to be able to talk to people about the
:11:35. > :11:39.savings I have made for people. When I agreed to do this today I
:11:39. > :11:44.thought we would be talking more about - it is pointless going over
:11:44. > :11:47.three years ago. I was just one of hundreds of people three years ago.
:11:47. > :11:54.There was something in the papers every day and it became a nightmare.
:11:54. > :11:57.It became almost suicidal for a lot of us. It became like a tsunami. I
:11:57. > :12:01.didn't think I did anything wrong. I am trying to rebuild my life and
:12:01. > :12:04.help other people rebuild their lives. One thing I learnt from this
:12:04. > :12:08.is that so many people don't have a chance to rebuild their lives. They
:12:08. > :12:11.make one mistake and then they are for ever having problems.
:12:11. > :12:15.Particularly young people. Well I would like to learn out of this and
:12:15. > :12:19.help out of this. To help young people stop reoffending, to stop
:12:19. > :12:24.causing problems for society. If we are not careful, all we do is
:12:24. > :12:28.create another lot of offenders. What one wants to try and do is to
:12:28. > :12:32.learn from it. I made a very big mistake, it has cost me enormously.
:12:32. > :12:36.I would like to try and stop other people making that mistake and to
:12:37. > :12:42.make certain that we perhaps, pate our politicians enough in the
:12:42. > :12:50.future. I am too cold to worry about that for now. To give them
:12:50. > :12:55.support to -- old. America gives their politicians much more support.
:12:55. > :13:01.Even in France and other countries. Instead of the media having a go at
:13:01. > :13:05.politicians all the time, we need to make certain we support them.
:13:05. > :13:11.There is a feeling in both Houses of Parliament that expenses were
:13:11. > :13:16.part of your pay. So you wouldn't have done this if you were paid
:13:16. > :13:23.more? I wouldn't have done it if I had some pay. I didn't have any pay.
:13:23. > :13:27.I paid staff - I use the money I talk to pay staff to work for the
:13:27. > :13:32.benefit of people like you, the country. So we should be grateful
:13:32. > :13:36.to you? I hope so, when you write it up. I will repeat, I was able to
:13:36. > :13:46.open post offices, I was able to stop... They should be more
:13:46. > :13:46.
:13:46. > :13:49.things. At the time of your trial and
:13:49. > :13:54.others the people that were rallying around you, I was talking
:13:54. > :14:00.to a lot of people who could not understand why people like you had
:14:00. > :14:06.tarnished this great parliamentary institution. The Prime Minister of
:14:07. > :14:11.the country and of saying he was ashamed of you. -- and sup. It
:14:11. > :14:16.suggests why politicians are the least trusted profession in this
:14:16. > :14:24.country. I don't think he said that of May. He meant all the ones who
:14:24. > :14:28.ended up in trouble. It did tarnish it. Going back to what I said,
:14:28. > :14:34.there had been a belief going on for many years that your expenses
:14:34. > :14:40.were part of your pay. You saw this from the MPs who did get paid that
:14:40. > :14:45.the boards, who don't get paid, were claiming default dispensers.
:14:45. > :14:48.85% of Pearce were claiming full expenses. You say you were to do
:14:48. > :14:54.something to stop people from reoffending. I wonder what the
:14:54. > :14:58.impact of prison was to you. impact of prison was that there are
:14:58. > :15:06.a tremendous amount of people in their he should not be. They should
:15:06. > :15:09.be having help to not reoffend. They are tarnished coming out annex
:15:09. > :15:14.criminal. They do not get a chance to rebuild their lives,
:15:14. > :15:21.particularly young people who have offended for the first time. A lot
:15:21. > :15:25.of people who go to prison cannot even read or write. A lot of people
:15:25. > :15:31.have young families. Prison visiting day was a bit like being
:15:31. > :15:38.in a nursery school. There were literally dozens of young children
:15:38. > :15:42.there. Or was it a shock for you to see all of that? It was a shock.
:15:42. > :15:46.Obviously a lot of their wives and children were suffering more than
:15:46. > :15:56.the prisoners were themselves. Once you are in prison you cannot do
:15:56. > :15:56.
:15:56. > :16:01.very much. It was the families who were so affected by it. What we're
:16:01. > :16:09.like before in terms of law and order? -- what would you like. Did
:16:09. > :16:13.it change the way you thought? changed the way I thought it in
:16:13. > :16:18.that I've always tried to help the underprivileged in educational
:16:18. > :16:26.terms, but we need to do more about that. We need to spend the money in
:16:26. > :16:31.a better way. So many things goes wrong for people around the age of
:16:31. > :16:36.15 or 16. That is when they start to really go wrong. If we had more
:16:36. > :16:39.help in the community for those 15 or 16-year-olds, we might stop them
:16:39. > :16:45.from offending in the first place. If we did more for the early
:16:45. > :16:50.offenders, if we gave them a more one-to-one a monitoring system to
:16:50. > :16:55.make sure that they did not reoffend. I was sitting next to a
:16:55. > :17:01.friend of mine who is a retired policeman. He was saying exactly
:17:01. > :17:07.the same thing. He supports me. We should do more for you for to stop
:17:08. > :17:10.them either fending or reoffending. I am trying to work back to
:17:10. > :17:16.something at the beginning of the conversation, you said that the
:17:17. > :17:21.shock of all of this... You use the word suicidal. Did you feel like
:17:21. > :17:27.that? I would not go into a Tube station at the time because the
:17:27. > :17:35.draw the train was worrying. I did have to have some professional help
:17:35. > :17:40.for a while. Just after it was announced that I was going to be
:17:40. > :17:45.prosecuted, I needed help. I a pity all the people who are awaiting the
:17:45. > :17:55.hacking charges at the moment. It is a terrible time because you are
:17:55. > :18:00.in an unknown area. I was unable to go into the Tube stations. Explain
:18:00. > :18:10.that. Why wouldn't you go into the Tube? Ban I was frightened I might
:18:10. > :18:12.
:18:12. > :18:18.throw myself in front of it. You conceded that it? I get myself away
:18:18. > :18:22.from situations that could have helped me. -- hurt me. I have
:18:22. > :18:28.received professional help and I am trying to rebuild my own confidence.
:18:28. > :18:37.It was very traumatic. In that sense, when he was sentenced to
:18:37. > :18:42.prison and you went in for the first time, was that a relief
:18:42. > :18:46.because you knew what you are doing for the next few months? Yes, it
:18:46. > :18:51.was a relief. The worst thing was being sentenced and then the
:18:51. > :18:58.unknown. Once I was in prison it was a relief. The media couldn't
:18:58. > :19:04.get a hold of me. I couldn't do anything and therefore it was a
:19:04. > :19:09.rest, which is ridiculous talking about. A rest? That is basically
:19:09. > :19:13.what prison is for a lot of people. Putting people in prison is not be
:19:13. > :19:18.answered. You need to do more to stop them from reoffending. Just
:19:18. > :19:21.shutting them up is not doing any good. The implication of some of
:19:21. > :19:26.the things you are saying is that they encourage people to reoffend
:19:26. > :19:29.because if you cannot rebuild your life, it must be even more
:19:29. > :19:36.difficult for people who are illiterate and have substance abuse
:19:36. > :19:39.problems. It is a nightmare. So many people do reoffend. So many
:19:39. > :19:44.people are in prison because of the circumstances. One needs to use the
:19:44. > :19:48.money that is being spent on prisons... Some people need to be
:19:48. > :19:57.shut up because they are violent, but I think everyone thinks that
:19:57. > :20:01.people imprisoned are. The majority are not violent. They need some
:20:01. > :20:07.rehabilitation. They need to get back to normal lives. Do you think
:20:07. > :20:12.that prison was the wrong place for you? Obviously I did, but it is not
:20:12. > :20:20.for me to comment on that. They decided I should go. No-one thought
:20:20. > :20:28.I would go to prison, but I did. I have learnt from it. Is the
:20:28. > :20:33.implication that politics is a rich man's game? If you have the money,
:20:33. > :20:39.you can get that the position? You are not in the rich category. Is it
:20:39. > :20:45.something that you have to be rich to get to the top? It seems to be
:20:45. > :20:51.easier to get to the top if you are rich. But is a mistake. Democracy
:20:51. > :20:57.must be about everyone. Everyone needs to be able to participate in
:20:57. > :21:01.people are well enough paid. The real problem is from the outside
:21:01. > :21:07.public they do imagine that politicians have money. The imagine
:21:07. > :21:11.I've got money because I may peer. The fact that you are bored means
:21:11. > :21:15.you have money. There is a lack of courage among the politicians, in
:21:15. > :21:19.the House of Commons in particular, thinking if they were underpaid
:21:19. > :21:24.they should have said, we are not paid the same as a head teacher or
:21:24. > :21:28.similar profession. They were cowardly and did not say that.
:21:29. > :21:33.know a lot of MPs operate on an enormous overdraft. They live
:21:33. > :21:36.almost on a day-to-day existence. A lot of marriages break up because
:21:36. > :21:44.of financial reasons. I think we do need to make certain that
:21:44. > :21:48.politicians in this country are paid in a way that rewards them.
:21:48. > :21:54.You have been back in the House of Lords. You ask. What do other
:21:54. > :21:57.members of the House of Lords think or say you? I have been welcomed
:21:57. > :22:05.back into the House of Lords. I got on well with everyone. I worked
:22:05. > :22:11.hard. Sometimes I would speak every single day. To a certain extent,
:22:11. > :22:17.people have welcomed me back. I have found a lot of friends there.
:22:17. > :22:21.I found it very welcoming to go back. You said you would not offend
:22:21. > :22:26.again and would not have done it if you had really known about it. Do
:22:26. > :22:36.you think you can rehabilitate your reputation? I think so. The judge
:22:36. > :22:38.
:22:38. > :22:44.said that. He said that he thought I would be able to. I think there
:22:44. > :22:49.is a possibility as long as I've don't try and do things that are
:22:49. > :22:53.not suitable. That's why it if I can spend some time on mental
:22:53. > :22:56.health issues and the rehabilitation areas that I talk
:22:56. > :23:03.about, particularly for young people. There is an enormous amount
:23:03. > :23:11.we could do as a country to help people. In Norway I think every
:23:11. > :23:17.prison ward has to have proper training. -- warden. You need
:23:17. > :23:21.better people in prison using the same money, helping the prisoners.
:23:21. > :23:25.Not just chatting them up, but giving them better help to make
:23:25. > :23:32.sure they do not reoffend. They can create in your life for themselves.
:23:32. > :23:38.It is a matter of being able to do a job or earn a living. For example,
:23:38. > :23:43.my house insurance was cancelled. I did not know that would happen.