:00:02. > :00:11.talks ahead of their meeting with the Greek Prime Minister over the
:00:11. > :00:17.weekend. It is now time for HARDtalk.
:00:17. > :00:23.When South African police shot dead 34 striking Mineworkers days ago,
:00:23. > :00:29.the deep divisions within post apartheid South Africa were Crawley
:00:29. > :00:35.exposed. South Africa's government faces a potentially damaging
:00:35. > :00:41.combination of worker unrest, investor uncertainty and political
:00:42. > :00:48.infighting. My guest is Rob Davies, South Africa's Minister of Trade
:00:48. > :00:58.and Industry. What has South Africa's learned from the massacre
:00:58. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:29.Rob Davies, in Cape Town, thank you for joining us. It is a pleasure.
:01:29. > :01:37.We have to start with the events at Marikana a few days ago. Are you
:01:37. > :01:41.proud with the way your government handled the mass killing? I am
:01:41. > :01:50.proud of the way in which the our government has respo
:01:50. > :01:53.events. The events are an enormous tragedy. We need to go into a
:01:53. > :02:02.judiciary investigation which the President announced. Our President
:02:02. > :02:11.cut short his summit. He flew back to the officials in charge of the
:02:11. > :02:16.situation. He appropriately defined this week as a week of mourning.
:02:16. > :02:21.Our response has been a response which has been to see this as an
:02:21. > :02:28.enormous challenge and a tragedy, something which we have to respond
:02:28. > :02:33.to whizz all hours born -- resources. What about the police
:02:33. > :02:40.commissioner? Are a woman said she did not believe the police should
:02:41. > :02:47.be sorry for opening fire. It was the right thing to do. The actions
:02:47. > :02:56.of the police and action of the police commanders will be looked at.
:02:56. > :03:05.With considerable debts, that is. - - debts. It is an appropriate
:03:05. > :03:11.response. We will investigate his circumstances. It is an enormous
:03:11. > :03:19.tragedy that should not have happened. You sit in the government
:03:19. > :03:26.alongside the police minister. Hugh is what was said the other day. The
:03:26. > :03:30.minister said, how can the police commissioner or police minister
:03:30. > :03:38.keep their posts in a civilised society after more than 40 people
:03:38. > :03:44.have been killed in the mining incident? A incident? Aill
:03:44. > :03:51.responsibility. responsibility. Who did what wrong
:03:51. > :03:57.and who will be held to account. That is heap correct prices in the
:03:57. > :04:05.democratic society. There needs to be evidence. There is the question
:04:05. > :04:10.of responsibility. Police have to be held to account. Somebody has to
:04:10. > :04:16.take responsibility with this. In your government, nobody has taken
:04:16. > :04:26.responsibility. We have all respect -- accepted responsibility. We said
:04:26. > :04:27.
:04:27. > :04:33.mattof the the meantime, we have organised a
:04:34. > :04:39.committee to go out to Marikana to try to reverse the cycle that has
:04:39. > :04:46.led to this tragedy. We will also deal with matters relating to that.
:04:46. > :04:50.You talk about the cycle. It is complex. One part of it has been
:04:50. > :04:56.the long-running dispute between the National Union and mine workers
:04:56. > :05:05.and breakaway union representing other mine workers, the AMCU. Does
:05:05. > :05:13.it surprise you that other aware of the assistance of the AMCU
:05:13. > :05:17.are until after the massacre. -- existence. Those matters to do with
:05:17. > :05:27.Labour is in the purview of the Minister of Labour. The Minister of
:05:27. > :05:32.the mines is not responsible for that. The existence of the union
:05:32. > :05:37.was known beforehand. The impact of it was something which took many
:05:37. > :05:43.people by surprise. It is not credible, is it, that your
:05:44. > :05:51.colleague, the mind Minister did not know about the AMCU. It is not
:05:51. > :05:56.credible. I am sure they had a good idea of what the make-up of what
:05:57. > :06:04.the organisations in that industry was. Five cents a little
:06:04. > :06:11.awkwardness awkwardnessue satisfied that other key members of
:06:11. > :06:15.the government are on top of the situation? Every effort is being
:06:15. > :06:21.made by our government to address the challenges arising from the
:06:21. > :06:29.situation. That includes some of the broader matters that may arise
:06:29. > :06:39.from this. Generally, we have responded in an appropriate way.
:06:39. > :06:41.
:06:41. > :06:46.leaves you with a big problem. Your trading ministry Minister says that
:06:46. > :06:56.more workers are going on strike. Anglo American platinum mine is
:06:56. > :06:57.
:06:57. > :07:06.being affected. The Royal Bafokeng platinum mine is being affected.
:07:06. > :07:11.There are some serious industry challenges. I have been looking
:07:11. > :07:19.closely at what this means in terms of the broader market reaction to
:07:19. > :07:26.South Africa and what it means in terms of investment pipeline. This
:07:26. > :07:32.event is very contained. For example, we have seen the stock
:07:32. > :07:37.market has been resilient under the circumstances, generally. And the
:07:37. > :07:43.shares of Lonmin have taken a tumble. But shares across the board
:07:43. > :07:48.have holed up in other sectors. As far as the correct investment
:07:48. > :07:53.pipeline is concerned, there are bigger factors which are being
:07:53. > :08:00.considered by investors. This includes the fact that Africa is
:08:00. > :08:04.without doubt the next frontier with a shock. There is a
:08:04. > :08:13.repositioning of foreign investors towards the African continent. --
:08:13. > :08:23.Asia. I am seeing no signs that at this point there is no serious
:08:23. > :08:33.contagion affecting those regions. Our response has got to be... We
:08:33. > :08:36.
:08:36. > :08:41.have to work in all aspects of the Our response is going to be what is
:08:41. > :08:44.critical. If you make the appropriate response, the art
:08:44. > :08:54.Sunworld will see that we are a government that is capable of
:08:54. > :08:54.
:08:54. > :08:59.responding. -- are the outside world. We have to make a dent into
:08:59. > :09:06.the big structural problems that have confronted South African
:09:06. > :09:13.society for many decades, including the apartheid era. They were
:09:13. > :09:20.miserable conditions for workers. We would get to that in a moment. I
:09:20. > :09:24.am amazed that you are not seeing worrying signs. I can quote to you
:09:24. > :09:28.a leading mining and business consultant in Cape Town. He says
:09:28. > :09:33.that what has happened has reinforced the view that South
:09:33. > :09:41.Africa is a risky place to put your money. This incident is another
:09:41. > :09:46.obstacle in a way of attracting it, another person says. Many
:09:46. > :09:56.commentators who have said things like that Port the markets have not
:09:56. > :10:01.
:10:01. > :10:06.responded in that particular way. - Some people think it is too risky
:10:06. > :10:12.to continue with the projects they have been involved in. We are not
:10:12. > :10:19.seeing that at this point. It is our job as government to try to
:10:19. > :10:29.reassure investors, particularly investors not directly involved in
:10:29. > :10:37.
:10:37. > :10:43.the platinum industry. If you work will be improved. Is it really
:10:44. > :10:49.contained when the chief of Royal Bafokeng Platinum says, I don't
:10:49. > :10:53.think this is about Lonmin or mining. This is becoming a South
:10:53. > :11:02.African phenomenon where people are dissatisfied and resorting to
:11:02. > :11:07.violence means to resolve disputes, rather than negotiations. I think
:11:07. > :11:13.that the resort to violence in certain disputes, including
:11:13. > :11:21.industrial relations, is not new. It is something which we are trying
:11:21. > :11:27.to grapple with. This incident is alarming us to become more
:11:27. > :11:32.effective in this regard. -- allowing. We have to address
:11:32. > :11:42.inequalities in our country. We have to move forward with our
:11:42. > :11:46.
:11:46. > :11:53.changes if we want to bring about In the next few years, the efforts
:11:53. > :11:59.we have made are beginning to bear some results. We have to me forward
:12:00. > :12:03.in the programme. We have to include this year economic
:12:03. > :12:13.conditions of the him vast majority of the working people and
:12:13. > :12:16.
:12:16. > :12:22.unemployed. That is what we are focused on. I have to interrupt. I
:12:22. > :12:26.have to say, over the last seven years, I have had a host of senior
:12:26. > :12:30.South Africa ministers telling me that that is their commitment and
:12:30. > :12:36.that is what they pledged to deliver to the South African people.
:12:36. > :12:41.A major up list for the living standards. It has not happened. 18
:12:41. > :12:46.years after the liberation struggle and did, after Nelson Mandela was
:12:46. > :12:52.put into the presidential headquarters, Hicom 40% of your
:12:52. > :13:00.people are living in poverty? How come the government has failed to
:13:00. > :13:07.it to deliver for so many South African people? The reality is that
:13:07. > :13:13.the social records has been pretty impressive in terms of delivering
:13:13. > :13:17.of housing, social security and things of that sort. What we have
:13:17. > :13:21.not salt is the structural unemployment problem which we have
:13:21. > :13:27.inherited from apartheid. It has gotten worse since the economy went
:13:27. > :13:33.into crisis. This administration has at under fire that we need to
:13:33. > :13:38.make some important structural changes in our economy. --
:13:38. > :13:44.identified. We have started to roll out a series of policies. We have
:13:44. > :13:49.started to roll out infrastructure development programmes. It has gone
:13:49. > :13:54.through a high level of planning. These steps are necessary to bring
:13:54. > :14:02.about structural changes. These changes will deliver the results we
:14:02. > :14:09.want. But not in the immediate term. They will require a year or two
:14:09. > :14:17.before the fruits are filled. We can see the benefits of these
:14:18. > :14:21.You use the language of dry economics. Many people who are
:14:21. > :14:27.dissatisfied with what the governments have delivered by using
:14:27. > :14:33.a very different language. I'm thinking about the deposed head of
:14:33. > :14:40.the ANC Youth League. He is making a political here right now. And he
:14:40. > :14:43.said that Jacob Zuma had totally failed to challenge what he calls
:14:43. > :14:52.white monopoly capital. He said that is the lesson to learn from
:14:52. > :14:56.what has happened. A those of us who are still in the ANC had agreed
:14:56. > :15:01.that the next phase of democratic revolution will have to focus on
:15:01. > :15:08.bringing about a much more rapid process of economic transformation.
:15:09. > :15:12.That does mean also that we have to change very much the patterns of
:15:12. > :15:19.ownership and the way in which ownership is going to be exercised
:15:19. > :15:23.in our country. That has caught a number of different aspects to it.
:15:23. > :15:30.-- that has caught. These programmes are something that we
:15:30. > :15:35.have outlined. We know the direction as we need to move in. We
:15:35. > :15:45.face challenges of implementation. I would suggest that we can already
:15:45. > :15:45.
:15:45. > :15:49.see some of the benefits of that. Short-term populist solutions which
:15:49. > :15:55.are suggested by individuals will not solve the problems. These are
:15:55. > :15:58.serious structural problems. I would argue that we have the
:15:58. > :16:03.approaches in place which will deliver the results. What we need
:16:03. > :16:06.to do is stick to what we have indicated that we will do. We need
:16:06. > :16:14.to move in a more energetic and effective way towards
:16:14. > :16:18.implementation. I think it is a cause which we are committed to.
:16:18. > :16:27.Why would the poor people of South Africa, who have seen this lack of
:16:27. > :16:34.delivery for many years, believe you now. Who are the people, the
:16:34. > :16:40.people used to DNC advocates, they are directors of massive corporate
:16:40. > :16:46.entities. These people are, in some cases, working inside companies
:16:46. > :16:52.like Lonmin. They are part of the capital system. They are not trying
:16:52. > :16:57.to transform it. We have had a long, hard look at what we have
:16:57. > :17:02.understood in Parliament. Just yesterday, we have released some
:17:02. > :17:08.amendments to the black economic codes of practice. We want to give
:17:08. > :17:12.more emphasis to those parts of the empowerment that deal with the
:17:12. > :17:18.support for enterprise development and promote a real entrepreneurial
:17:18. > :17:22.culture among our people in South Africa and give much more serious
:17:22. > :17:27.support to intubation programmes, training, skills development and
:17:27. > :17:33.things like that. -- intubation. That is the direction we are trying
:17:33. > :17:40.to move in. These, I would contend, are the things that are necessary
:17:40. > :17:47.for us to do. I think we have outlined and have got quite a
:17:47. > :17:51.serious political buy into. The challenge, as I say, is to make
:17:51. > :17:58.sure we move forward towards implementation of those programmes.
:17:58. > :18:04.You are no communist command you? am indeed. -- You are a communist
:18:04. > :18:12.command you? You much support the call for the implementation of the
:18:12. > :18:17.mines. We have taken the view that fundamental issues are not
:18:17. > :18:22.questions of changes of ownership. These are questions of the
:18:22. > :18:27.structural direction of the economy. Those are the fundamental questions.
:18:27. > :18:36.We support the call that we should have a stronger state involvement
:18:36. > :18:46.in the mining sector. That should lead to greater beneficiary -- more
:18:46. > :18:51.
:18:51. > :18:57.Let's drop the jargon and stick to the basic points. Where do you
:18:57. > :19:03.stand? Are you prepared to tell me that you are ready to countenance
:19:03. > :19:12.the nationalisation of the mines? It is the hottest issue in South
:19:12. > :19:18.Africa today. There was a study which was under tick by the ANC. --
:19:18. > :19:23.which the ANC under tick. There was contribution made to the debate.
:19:23. > :19:27.The main focus was that what we need to do is to use the mineral
:19:27. > :19:32.wealth but we have in our country as a tool to develop an
:19:32. > :19:37.industrialised South Africa. That is fundamentally what it is about.
:19:37. > :19:42.That is not jargon. The real challenge that Africa faces, not
:19:42. > :19:48.just South Africa, is to move from not just being producers and
:19:48. > :19:53.exporters have brought under the ground but to being producers and
:19:53. > :19:57.exporters of products based on the mineral wealth that we have. That
:19:57. > :20:02.should be used in international trade. That is where we need to go
:20:02. > :20:07.as a country and the Continent. I think our strategy is beginning to
:20:07. > :20:11.lay out how we need to move on. Correct me if I am wrong but I do
:20:11. > :20:14.not feel I am getting a clear answer from you on this issue of
:20:14. > :20:19.nationalisation. That might be because you face impossible
:20:19. > :20:24.pressures. On the one hand, you have got a loud call for many
:20:24. > :20:28.people in South Africa to move ahead with nationalisation. You
:20:28. > :20:34.have also got the business sector and you have to watch what they are
:20:34. > :20:38.telling you. They will say that even the current policy of imposing
:20:38. > :20:43.a super tax on profits and regulating the mines in a more
:20:43. > :20:50.assertive way, even that threatens the mining sector, which is so
:20:50. > :20:57.important to you country. You are caught between a rock and a hard
:20:57. > :21:02.place, aren't you? The fundamental challenge is that we need to move
:21:02. > :21:06.from being producers and exporters of dirt out of the ground used in
:21:06. > :21:10.other industrial processes to a country which is able to
:21:10. > :21:17.industrialise on the basis of the wealth that we have. At the
:21:17. > :21:21.question is what used to be make of the already existing ownership of
:21:21. > :21:25.mineral rights that we have offered government -- as a government and
:21:25. > :21:31.the allocation of these rights to companies, but becomes a critically
:21:31. > :21:39.important question. We already have significant ownership rights of
:21:39. > :21:49.mineral wealth. I think but once we get that right, we can begin to
:21:49. > :21:50.
:21:50. > :21:55.talk about a more substantial state involvement. We need to talk about
:21:55. > :22:00.shares in the mining sector not being held by a state company.
:22:00. > :22:07.autumn wind, Jacob Zuma faces a challenge for the leadership of the
:22:07. > :22:13.ANC in November. -- bottom line. There are other candidates who
:22:13. > :22:20.seemed more keen. Who will you back? Could do you believe will be
:22:20. > :22:26.the new leader? I will not get into that. The time for us to discuss
:22:27. > :22:31.leadership preferences within the structures of the ANC is not now.
:22:32. > :22:36.Some individuals may have chosen not to accept that discipline. That
:22:36. > :22:42.is the discipline that is applicable to all was. The country
:22:42. > :22:48.is in a terrible mess right now. -- to all of us. The economy looks
:22:48. > :22:51.weaker than many of your African neighbours. Many talk about the new
:22:51. > :22:56.frontier and after cuts but said that figure is in grave danger of
:22:56. > :23:03.missing out. That's the new frontier in Africa.
:23:03. > :23:13.We are a critical part of the African continent. We are
:23:13. > :23:16.
:23:16. > :23:23.energetically pursuing integration in a number of ways. It is very
:23:23. > :23:27.clear that South Africa's role in Africa is an important one. I think
:23:27. > :23:34.that the picture of the country falling apart is not correct. Many
:23:34. > :23:41.people in this country, commentators, others who want to
:23:42. > :23:46.tell a different story, they are wrong. I do not believe that is a
:23:46. > :23:49.correct picture. I think the picture is akin to that in Britain
:23:49. > :23:56.a few years ago where there was youth unrest taking place across
:23:56. > :24:02.your country. There were deep and serious social issues. It merited a
:24:02. > :24:08.serious ongoing engagement. That is what has happened for us. We need
:24:08. > :24:12.to address those type of challenges and issues. It is to be seen as an
:24:12. > :24:18.injunction to move more rapidly. We need to create employment and