:00:06. > :00:13.decide if he was a man or a mouse. Now on BBC News, it is time for
:00:13. > :00:18.HARDtalk. Western powers led by the United
:00:18. > :00:23.States would dearly like to deal with a well organised, United and
:00:23. > :00:28.anti- aside opposition in Syria. But right now, there is no such
:00:28. > :00:33.thing, which has left to the west strategy tended it at best.
:00:33. > :00:35.Supportive of the rebels but not without arms. Eager to seek
:00:35. > :00:42.President Assad ousted but apprehensive about what will come
:00:42. > :00:52.after. My guess today is Brian Sayers, chief lobbyist for the
:00:52. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:24.Syrian support group. Just how Brian Sayers, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:24. > :01:28.Can we start about being clear about your role? New are a hired
:01:28. > :01:35.consultants and lobbyists. Is that right? That is right. The Syrian
:01:35. > :01:42.support group is a collection of largely US-based to Syrian
:01:42. > :01:47.immigrants, Ex patriots. And they are committed to finding an army
:01:47. > :01:52.and Syrian rebels inside Syria? Specifically to the military
:01:52. > :01:56.councils of the Free Syrian Army. Not broadly all the rebels, but yes.
:01:56. > :02:02.Are you doing this job because it is good business for you or you
:02:02. > :02:07.passionately believe in the cause? I do believe in the cause. I
:02:07. > :02:13.believe that we have to do something to bring down the regime,
:02:13. > :02:18.to help as an international community, to bring democracy
:02:18. > :02:23.inside the bidder for mosaic of Syria. I absolutely believe in the
:02:24. > :02:29.course. Again, it is a business move for you. You are doing it
:02:29. > :02:35.because they are paying you good money. I am tired, ERM staff, we
:02:35. > :02:38.can debate whether it is good or bad money, but it is definitely a
:02:38. > :02:44.cause that is worse for Bill Ing. I can look in my mirror in the
:02:44. > :02:48.morning and be happy. -- were fulfilling. But it is not easy what
:02:49. > :02:53.you are doing. You are spending an awful lot of time on Capitol Hill,
:02:53. > :02:57.in proximity to the White House, trying to persuade the people that
:02:57. > :03:02.matter that they needed to do much more to back the Syrian opposition,
:03:02. > :03:08.in particular, the Syrian fighters on the ground. It is heavy going,
:03:08. > :03:12.is it not? It is a lot of discussion, negotiation, it is
:03:12. > :03:16.bringing forth the case which we think is important, people are
:03:16. > :03:21.sympathetic and understanding, but what is clear is they cannot always
:03:21. > :03:26.deliver with actions. I'm not sure it is not the only thing that is
:03:26. > :03:31.clear. Many people in Washington have grave doubts about the
:03:31. > :03:39.coherence, the unity, the co- ordination behind the Syrian
:03:39. > :03:44.opposition. Agreed? Absolutely. Because they are in a mess. In the
:03:44. > :03:48.opposition is a very big umbrella. If you bring it down to a small
:03:48. > :03:53.umbrella, there is a Free Syrian Army which is more understandable,
:03:53. > :03:57.if you bring it down to a smaller umbrella, it is the military
:03:58. > :04:03.councils that we deal with, which represent about 60% of the Free
:04:03. > :04:07.Syrian Army. In general, there is an opposition that a lot of people
:04:07. > :04:14.have a hard time understanding. They have a hard time because they
:04:14. > :04:17.are fighting like rats in a sack, to coin a phrase. We have seen the
:04:17. > :04:23.French President talk about France's desire to recognise a
:04:23. > :04:30.provisional government, in the United States unnamed officials
:04:30. > :04:34.immediately shot that down, saying that it would be premature. The
:04:35. > :04:41.over Archer reality is that the Syrian opposition is deeply and it
:04:41. > :04:44.internally divided. -- overarching. You draw on two different things.
:04:44. > :04:49.There is the civilian opposition, which is going through the
:04:49. > :04:55.transition plan, which would normally be the civilian government
:04:55. > :05:01.in the future, then there is the military side, the Free Syrian Army.
:05:02. > :05:06.I would not say that the two eye in the same type. The political
:05:06. > :05:11.opposition is being challenged immensely, to try to form some type
:05:11. > :05:15.of unified government, if you move to the military side, we do have
:05:15. > :05:20.military councils with a decent amount of command and control. I am
:05:20. > :05:25.not going to say it is perfect, and there are problems in the country
:05:25. > :05:30.and other groups that are there, but there is some kind of command
:05:30. > :05:34.and control. Let's pick through the politics and the military. The
:05:34. > :05:38.military is what you are after, because you are after money for
:05:39. > :05:44.weapons, to put it bluntly. And in that issued, you have to recognise
:05:44. > :05:48.that what you are able to offer in your Syrian support group is
:05:48. > :05:53.nothing but a drop in the ocean compared to what is being offered
:05:53. > :05:59.from Saudi Arabia, from Qatar, other Gulf states, Turkey as well.
:05:59. > :06:03.You are a very minor player at, aren't you? At present. We would
:06:04. > :06:09.like to turn that around. We would like to become a more major player,
:06:09. > :06:14.and we think that the funds, some funds from Saudi Arabia, some funds
:06:14. > :06:20.from Qatar, would actually be best placed it through the Syrian
:06:20. > :06:27.support group, where we would have a universal F8 in trying to help
:06:27. > :06:32.the vetted free Syrian army that we know, the military councils. But at
:06:32. > :06:38.present, we have small funds, and we have what I call mum and pop
:06:38. > :06:43.funds to help out. How much have you provided so far? And we have
:06:43. > :06:49.not delivered any funds because we are still working on the logistics.
:06:49. > :06:55.When one of your co-founders talked about being up and running with $7
:06:55. > :07:01.million a month being funded, he was in cuckoo land. He was
:07:01. > :07:09.anticipating what he would like to have. We do not have a crystal ball,
:07:09. > :07:13.but I do not think that is entirely impossible. But right now, the
:07:13. > :07:17.grand total of money that you had sent his is zero. But that is
:07:17. > :07:23.largely because of logistical reasons. We have to set up on
:07:23. > :07:28.Office, an account. Are you getting good access to do it President
:07:29. > :07:33.Obama? And you have talks with the ambassador for the US ambassador
:07:33. > :07:38.for Syria, who was a key player in formulating strategy, or the
:07:38. > :07:42.special envoy to the Syrian opposition? I have talked with many
:07:42. > :07:48.government officials, but as a matter of principle, I do not
:07:48. > :07:52.disclose with who you talk to. you talking to officials in London
:07:52. > :07:56.about what governments in the UK, Europe and Turkey may do for you?
:07:56. > :08:02.am talking to officials and I'm talking about a number of things,
:08:02. > :08:08.about what we do, without there is scope for assistants, and how we
:08:08. > :08:14.can work together. The reason I am quizzing knew about this, is that
:08:14. > :08:20.there is a context, and the context is that clearly be US Admin, other
:08:20. > :08:25.Western administrations, I did -- deeply worried that the dominant
:08:25. > :08:30.influence among the fighters is coming from Islamist, Militant and
:08:30. > :08:35.Jihad in networks, who in many ways, they appear to be a long-term
:08:35. > :08:39.potential strategic threat to Western interests. All the more
:08:39. > :08:46.reason to counter that with the support and eight that we can
:08:46. > :08:51.provide, if countries can provide it, it is great. But to me, what
:08:51. > :08:56.you are saying, is an argument for by the international community
:08:56. > :09:01.needs to be more engaged. I am an argument for questioning the very
:09:01. > :09:04.premise that you operate upon. If you are trying to raise money in
:09:05. > :09:08.the West to help the Free Syrian Army, and I am telling you that all
:09:08. > :09:13.the evidence suggests the Free Syrian Army is increasingly
:09:13. > :09:20.dominated an employer must by Jihad D M Militant it interests, why on
:09:20. > :09:25.earth with the West listen to you? -- jihadist and militant. And we do
:09:25. > :09:28.not deal with the broad umbrella of the Free Syrian Army. We would be
:09:28. > :09:36.giving to the nine military councils, with the commanders that
:09:36. > :09:40.we know, that we had been talking to pore over a year, who had signed
:09:40. > :09:46.a bill of principles, they have declared what they are fighting for,
:09:46. > :09:50.and it is very important that we recognise part of the reason we
:09:50. > :09:55.have these relations, is that we build these relationships with the
:09:55. > :10:02.commanders on the ground. You talk about this word vetting, what on
:10:02. > :10:07.earth demeaned that you that the military councils? -- do you mean.
:10:07. > :10:13.We know who we are going to give money to. But you do not know what
:10:13. > :10:21.you like -- what they are going to do with it. We do know. Some of
:10:21. > :10:29.them will buy weapons, some of them will pay for salaries,... whose
:10:29. > :10:34.hands were those weapons end up in? At the military council. Not the
:10:34. > :10:38.frontiers -- the fighters on the front line. We know from human
:10:38. > :10:44.rights organisation reports, many of the fighters on the front line
:10:44. > :10:51.are committed jihadists. They are getting funding, the resources from
:10:51. > :10:55.other countries are ready. They are not looking for our type of funding.
:10:55. > :11:00.They did not care where the money comes from as long is it can buy
:11:00. > :11:07.them a weapon. Which is why we would be imposing very strict
:11:07. > :11:11.controls. One who would get the funding. There you are sitting in
:11:11. > :11:15.the comfortable office in Washington. How on earth do you and
:11:15. > :11:21.your colleagues in Washington expect to be credible when you say
:11:21. > :11:26.that, we will impose controls on fighters on the ground in Syria?
:11:26. > :11:33.is not in Washington. Our board of directors and members will be in
:11:33. > :11:38.Turkey. They are in North America as I understand it. But we do have
:11:38. > :11:43.some in Turkey. Turkey is an awful long way from Aleppo. When the
:11:43. > :11:48.missiles are coming down and the response is coming from the Free
:11:48. > :11:54.Syrian Army on the ground, I do not think they will be talking --
:11:54. > :12:00.calling up Turkey. They do travel to Turkey quite a bit. But my point
:12:00. > :12:04.is that the war is in Syria. There are people outside the country,
:12:04. > :12:08.Syrians and their supporters to have strong views about the way the
:12:08. > :12:13.struggle should be conducted, military or not, how it should be
:12:13. > :12:16.organised, but there are people inside, and it looks like the
:12:16. > :12:18.people inside are the dominant force when it comes to the
:12:18. > :12:23.strategic direction of the opposition, and you are not in
:12:23. > :12:31.sight. We are not physically insights but we are talking to
:12:32. > :12:36.these guys on a daily basis. Have you been inside? I do not, because
:12:36. > :12:40.my job is to be in Washington, it is to deal with the government
:12:40. > :12:49.relations. But we sent the ball inside to talk to the commanders
:12:49. > :12:56.and understand what the requirements are. -- people inside.
:12:56. > :13:01.Has the Aleppo military commanders signed? Yes. As the chief in Aleppo,
:13:01. > :13:05.he is responsible for the men who we saw on compelling video evidence,
:13:05. > :13:11.lining up prisoners and shooting them in the head. You are talking
:13:11. > :13:17.about a different group. They were FSA people inside Aleppo. There
:13:17. > :13:22.were some FSA, yes, but it is not part of the military councils that
:13:23. > :13:27.we are dealing with. You make it sound like it is a neat wall where
:13:27. > :13:34.everybody has clear identification, and they only stay within the
:13:34. > :13:39.parameters. As I understand it, it is a very complex battlefield,
:13:39. > :13:43.conflict zone, and there are people who claim loyalty to the FSA, who
:13:43. > :13:50.receive money and weapons from FSA sources, who frankly, when it comes
:13:50. > :13:54.to the fight, fight by their own rules. Exactly, and they have a
:13:54. > :13:59.different type of command and control. What is the meaning of all
:13:59. > :14:05.this betting? Why shouldn't we support those who are fighting for
:14:05. > :14:11.the future democratic Syria, because be., the very people who
:14:11. > :14:15.you say are fighting for democracy, handout weapons to fight under the
:14:15. > :14:19.banner of the FSA, a get weapons and money, and then conduct the
:14:19. > :14:29.military operations in a way which completely contradicts your proper
:14:29. > :14:39.
:14:39. > :14:43.And they would not receive funding from ours. You do not know that
:14:43. > :14:49.because you do not know where the money goes once it has crossed the
:14:49. > :14:54.border into Syria? Yes we do. thank you know I you're getting
:14:54. > :14:59.told by people whose main interest is to get money to buy weapons.
:14:59. > :15:05.They do not tell you exactly when they go? Nobody is going to be able
:15:05. > :15:10.to track the end user for everything bar we have a set of
:15:10. > :15:20.eight steps, a vetting process which requires a probation period,
:15:20. > :15:21.
:15:21. > :15:25.it requires principles to be signed. If we find that there is any type
:15:25. > :15:33.of contravention to the Geneva Convention, we would stop the
:15:33. > :15:39.funding. You read the press reports, Washington Post reporting from on
:15:39. > :15:45.the ground, very courageous reporting where a group is using
:15:45. > :15:49.fighters, G Hardee is from Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon, if you found that
:15:49. > :15:56.any of your money is going to a group like that you would stop it?
:15:57. > :16:04.We would stop it. If they had not signed up to the proclamation...
:16:04. > :16:09.What if they had? We would stop it as well. So the proclamation is
:16:09. > :16:15.meaningless? It is if it is not being carried out on the ground.
:16:15. > :16:20.The Syrian government accuses many fighters at as terrorist. The
:16:20. > :16:26.Russians say outside forces are pursuing their own agenda inside
:16:26. > :16:30.Syria, allegedly, the US, Saudi Arabia, Qatar. Due not think the
:16:30. > :16:33.sort of thing you're telling me today about what you want to
:16:33. > :16:39.achieve inside Syria and the money and weapon you want to put in,
:16:39. > :16:43.simply reinforces their argument? That series being used as a battle
:16:43. > :16:49.ground for outside forces and influencers to meddle? As I said
:16:49. > :16:53.before, our objective is to help the Military Council's in an
:16:53. > :16:59.organic structure. We want to help those guys that on the ground, who
:16:59. > :17:06.have signed this proclamation, who want a unified multi-ethnic Syria,
:17:06. > :17:10.and we will do everything we can. We would prefer to see that we are
:17:10. > :17:14.actually supporting the guys who were going to be a part of the
:17:14. > :17:19.future of a democratic Syria. I have no problem funding for that.
:17:19. > :17:24.The deer have any problem with what is happening in Aleppo. Even to
:17:24. > :17:29.quiet Rebel fighters themselves, 70% of the city is with the regime
:17:29. > :17:34.but most of the fighters from the rebel forces are not from a Aleppo
:17:34. > :17:38.itself, they are from outside, many from outside the country, does that
:17:38. > :17:43.raise moral issues about whether the citizens and civilians of a
:17:43. > :17:48.Aleppo are being treated fair by the rebel fighters? It is
:17:48. > :17:53.problematic. That Iran other fighters have now. What Colonel
:17:53. > :17:58.Keating in Aleppo is trying to do is to bring those who fight and a
:17:58. > :18:06.his command under the fold and under the proclamation that he has
:18:06. > :18:10.signed. At the same time, let us be clear, no-one has really said that
:18:10. > :18:17.the regime has control of a Aleppo at this point. I have no evidence
:18:17. > :18:22.that the regime... It is carrying out hit-and-run tactics. The leper
:18:22. > :18:29.is in a state of conflict. Absolutely. Multiply that around
:18:29. > :18:33.the country, the death toll is now close to 20,000 or behold. I am try
:18:33. > :18:41.to get a sense of your moral position. You are a former NATO and
:18:41. > :18:46.US official, you have a record of being involved in the policy, is
:18:46. > :18:55.there a conflict here about you trying to get money and weapons
:18:55. > :19:00.into a conflict whereby there is no immediate end point. The moral
:19:00. > :19:05.question is that if you do nothing I would have a problem sleeping at
:19:05. > :19:11.night. The best thing to do is to get support into the hands of those
:19:11. > :19:18.military officials that believe that they are fighting for the new
:19:18. > :19:21.Syria. For the mosaic and multi- ethnic Syria. They want to go back
:19:21. > :19:26.to the villages and towns, they want to the normal life at that
:19:26. > :19:31.they have had. To say that it is better off morally acceptable to do
:19:31. > :19:37.absolutely nothing, they gives the argument again, to the outside
:19:37. > :19:42.forces that are providing supplies and money and weapons to those
:19:42. > :19:47.fringe groups that have nothing to do with serious, that they're there
:19:47. > :19:52.to fight inside Syria for a period of time. You are talking about the
:19:52. > :19:57.jihadist forces? You are clearly worried about them? The point is,
:19:57. > :20:01.you are on the same side? They are fighting the regime but that is
:20:01. > :20:09.about all you have in common. that is a big point. You have ended
:20:09. > :20:14.up getting Inst -- involved in a conflict where your key allies,...
:20:14. > :20:22.They are not allies. Forgive me, poor when there is a battle like
:20:22. > :20:26.there is in a leper, frankly, they are allies. -- a leper. Allies are
:20:27. > :20:33.people who you can call on to get help. We have complete agreement in
:20:33. > :20:38.what we're doing. We get to the same basis together. We trained
:20:38. > :20:48.together. In this case, this is a decentralised issue. A lot of did
:20:48. > :20:50.
:20:50. > :20:54.she Hardy's fight separately. -- a lot of that jihad us. There is so
:20:54. > :20:58.complicated message you are giving. And give us money we can funnel
:20:58. > :21:01.into the Free Syrian Army but particular elements and understand
:21:01. > :21:08.that at the very same time they might be fighting alongside people
:21:08. > :21:12.who we now are actually extremely dangerous to Syria's future -
:21:12. > :21:16.militants. You have to trust us that the money and weapons we
:21:16. > :21:20.finally in will not get to the bad guys on our side, there will only
:21:21. > :21:25.get to the good guys on our side. It is not going to be a perfect
:21:25. > :21:30.situation by we're trying to do the best we can with what we are given.
:21:30. > :21:37.When you read that there are increasing numbers of Syrian
:21:37. > :21:45.Christians who are fleeing the country alongside the many sore
:21:45. > :21:51.knees, -- Sunni, and the nightmare for Christians in Syria is when the
:21:51. > :21:55.revolution took an Islamist foes, this is not the modern country we
:21:55. > :22:04.had. When you see in this performance and where it is going,
:22:04. > :22:12.D have grave doubts? I would tell me that woman, there is also a
:22:12. > :22:17.Jesuit who was kicked out of Syria and for 30 years, the regime
:22:17. > :22:23.brutalise the people. I have nothing against the mother and her
:22:23. > :22:28.experience but father Palo would tell you he lived under a Mafia
:22:28. > :22:33.state and that right now is the time for the opposition for the FSA
:22:33. > :22:38.to try and fight that mafia state and to try and bring a democratic
:22:38. > :22:41.country for all serious. Is it really the time to fire for
:22:42. > :22:51.outsiders to parlay in with more weapons and money for weapons. I
:22:51. > :22:54.leave you with the quote from two of Syria's political prisoners: We
:22:54. > :22:58.cannot accept Syria been transformed into a theatre of
:22:58. > :23:04.regional and international conflict. You are part of that. What we're
:23:04. > :23:08.trying to do is to bring peace, to reduce the casualties on the ground.
:23:08. > :23:17.The last thing we want a more killings. We want stop the killing.
:23:17. > :23:24.By taking out a Saab assets, the planes,... That cannot happen
:23:24. > :23:32.without more active Western and US and Arab involvement? None of that
:23:32. > :23:37.is a realistic prospect, is it morally right to continually called
:23:37. > :23:41.for weapons and money to going when a frankly, this, but, for the
:23:41. > :23:51.rebels is unwinnable. We have talked about weapons as a strategy
:23:51. > :23:52.
:23:52. > :23:58.to take out Assad. It is better to take these assets to reduce the
:23:58. > :24:06.casualties. We have always talked about helping out with field
:24:06. > :24:10.hospitals that help Christians, Alawites, the regime, the soldier
:24:10. > :24:16.who is captured, these are the things that we are talking about.