:00:08. > :00:15.all day. The conflict in Syria is fuelling
:00:15. > :00:21.sectarion tension across the Middle East.
:00:21. > :00:25.It is no coincidence that neighbouring Iraq's chronic
:00:25. > :00:32.security crisis has deepened in the last year and at the heart of the
:00:32. > :00:36.right's instability, my guest today, Tarek al Hashimi. He is normally
:00:36. > :00:41.the vice-president of the country but, right now, add the fact of
:00:41. > :00:46.fugitive in Turkey, being tried in absentia when charges are
:00:46. > :00:56.sponsoring death squads in Iraq. What hope is there for justice or
:00:56. > :01:18.
:01:19. > :01:26.peace in the region in the grip of -- a de facto fugitive. Tarek al
:01:26. > :01:33.Hashimi, will come to HARDtalk. -- welcome to HARDtalk. The thank you.
:01:33. > :01:39.You are officially vice-president of Iraq but, as I have just said,
:01:39. > :01:49.at the fact of fugitive from justice from your own courts system.
:01:49. > :01:49.
:01:49. > :01:54.How do you explain what is happening to you? -- a de facto.
:01:54. > :02:01.Thank you. I am vice-president but am being deprived of my normal
:02:01. > :02:11.authorities. I am still officially the Vice President of Iraq. I am
:02:11. > :02:12.
:02:12. > :02:22.not a fugitive. I left my country officially with the authority of
:02:22. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:30.civil officio Sion. -- with the authority of the several of us. I
:02:30. > :02:36.want to return to get a fair trial in a fair court. I want to present
:02:36. > :02:41.myself to the court, providing a fair trial is provided. But the
:02:41. > :02:46.Iraqi authorities insist there is indeed a fair trial and that is
:02:46. > :02:51.already happening. You are not in the dock because you refuse to
:02:51. > :02:56.return. It has been televised. We have seen the defence and
:02:56. > :03:01.prosecution going through various motions. Why do you not, as vice-
:03:01. > :03:11.president, a man who swore to uphold the Iraqi constitution and
:03:11. > :03:14.
:03:14. > :03:23.judicial system, go home and face that system yourself? The charges
:03:23. > :03:30.are politically motivated and have been fabricated. I lost three
:03:30. > :03:39.siblings, two brothers and one sisters, -- one sister, for one
:03:39. > :03:44.reason and that was the political process. In 2011, I received the
:03:44. > :03:48.same message, that I should leave the country and leave the political
:03:48. > :03:58.process or I would see what was going to happen to me. Within a
:03:58. > :04:02.couple of days, this case was fabricated, my bodyguards were
:04:02. > :04:10.arrested and this has been broadcast did over the Iraqi TV
:04:10. > :04:16.channels. I could stay at this stage that Article Number 93 of the
:04:16. > :04:20.constitution and offered me immunity. If there are any charges,
:04:20. > :04:25.including the charges that they are talking about, the court
:04:25. > :04:32.specialised in dealing with my taste is the supreme court, not the
:04:32. > :04:42.crime court. -- my case. There is a constitutional violations. On top
:04:42. > :04:44.
:04:44. > :04:50.of that, Article Number 55 of the law, give me a legitimate trial.
:04:50. > :04:58.Transfer the case. If I am not happy about the trial, the accused
:04:58. > :05:02.person, still in opposition, to request to transfer the case.
:05:02. > :05:07.understand you are making technical arguments. Let's get down to the
:05:07. > :05:14.basic facts. The charges against you are very grave. They suggest
:05:14. > :05:19.that you orchestrated, sponsored and financed death squads running
:05:19. > :05:24.from 2006 until the very recent past. It is alleged that a host of
:05:24. > :05:29.your own security team were involved in assassinations of
:05:29. > :05:34.senior Shi'ite officials and many other people as well. Given the
:05:34. > :05:39.gravity of those crimes and given that we know the court case will be
:05:39. > :05:42.conducted under the full glare of publicity, we did not be the best
:05:42. > :05:52.thing for you, and, more particularly, the best thing for
:05:52. > :05:53.
:05:53. > :05:59.Iraq, for you to go home and face the court? The accused person
:05:59. > :06:09.should receive and should be offered at least as security. Where
:06:09. > :06:09.
:06:09. > :06:15.is my security? I have my guards being arrested. Others have left
:06:15. > :06:20.the country. I do not have immunity or protection. I am a vice-
:06:20. > :06:25.president. I am not a normal citizen. Where is my protection?
:06:25. > :06:31.With respect, some of your own senior security team have been in
:06:31. > :06:34.court, telling the court that you gave them thousands of dollars to
:06:34. > :06:38.organise and carry out assassinations and we have had
:06:38. > :06:43.chapter and verse from your former deputy security chief which has
:06:43. > :06:48.described how you ordered the assassination of the son of a Sunni
:06:48. > :06:54.cleric because he went off message, given all of the evidence in the
:06:54. > :06:58.courtroom, whatever your desires for protection, isn't it imperative
:06:58. > :07:03.that you stand in the dock and face the Iraqi court and the Iraqi
:07:03. > :07:13.people? This is why I am asking the United Nations to get involved in
:07:13. > :07:15.
:07:15. > :07:20.my case and try to take all of these allegations. Don't forget
:07:20. > :07:26.that a lot of this has been ascertained under severe torture.
:07:26. > :07:34.One of my bodyguards was killed by torture. For the record, the
:07:34. > :07:39.authorities say he died of kidney failure. You cannot know. No. The
:07:39. > :07:46.gentleman is a 33 years old. What sort of kidney failure? He is very
:07:46. > :07:56.active and healthy. I checked his record. I know him very well.
:07:56. > :07:56.
:07:56. > :08:03.Believe it or not, until now, the Ministry of Health, his attempt to
:08:03. > :08:10.issue a death certificate, they cannot tell why he died. He died
:08:10. > :08:14.from severe torture. Neither of us can actually know that. What you
:08:14. > :08:18.have not done well the cause of this interview is answer the basic
:08:19. > :08:28.question, did you run death squads and are you responsible for the
:08:29. > :08:29.
:08:29. > :08:34.deaths of many Shia people within your own country? No way. I would
:08:34. > :08:43.start a revenge for those who killed my family, who killed my
:08:43. > :08:47.sister, who killed my general, killed other people. I did not.
:08:48. > :08:55.This case has been left pending according to an instruction. I do
:08:55. > :09:00.not make any sort of protest. If I do desire in fact to kill anybody
:09:00. > :09:10.from Iraq, or outside Iraq, I should start killing the people he
:09:10. > :09:13.
:09:13. > :09:22.killed my family. You have mentioned $1,000, there was a trial
:09:22. > :09:32.in August, they said I have paid them 200 US dollars just to take
:09:32. > :09:39.
:09:39. > :09:47.the risk. Their salaries range from $750 up to $1,500. A final question
:09:47. > :09:57.on the detail. Explain to me how come there were silences that your
:09:57. > :10:02.home when -- pistol silencers at your home and when it was raided.
:10:02. > :10:08.It is a pistol that cannot be silenced. There was a technical
:10:08. > :10:17.problem. They are an awkward position. They cannot in fact tell.
:10:17. > :10:21.This is one of the major loopholes and the trial. The trial is
:10:21. > :10:25.supposed to continue in the next few weeks but you will not be there.
:10:25. > :10:30.Because you are such an important figure, the most important Sunni
:10:30. > :10:35.Arab member of the government inside Iraq, currently outside Iraq,
:10:35. > :10:45.have you spoken to the Americans about your current situation? Are
:10:45. > :10:46.
:10:46. > :10:52.the encouragingly to go home? If they did? What? What sort of
:10:52. > :10:56.message do they have? We know what sort of message. Not long ago, Joe
:10:56. > :11:01.Biden issued a general statement on Iraq saying he wanted to see the
:11:01. > :11:04.leaders of all the different sectarian groupings, the different
:11:04. > :11:08.confessional groupings coming together to work together for the
:11:08. > :11:13.good of Iraq. The Americans are worried about the crisis in Iraq
:11:13. > :11:22.today. They clearly believe that you sitting in Istanbul is a part
:11:22. > :11:32.of the problem. This message is specifically not to me. This is to
:11:32. > :11:37.
:11:37. > :11:43.another man's who made the political process fragile. He
:11:43. > :11:50.monopolised power. He has caused problems. He maintained the
:11:50. > :11:56.corruption. This message from Joe Biden is not directed towards me,
:11:56. > :12:01.it is directed to the Prime Minister. I have a feeling we are
:12:01. > :12:05.about to get involved in a circuitous argument. In the end,
:12:05. > :12:12.each side can blame the other for creating the more a sectarian
:12:12. > :12:22.hatred. You have just condemned the actions of the Shia Prime Minister
:12:22. > :12:23.
:12:23. > :12:29.of your country. He has been called a number of names, including a Shia
:12:29. > :12:35.Saddam Hussein. Recently, it was said that he was running a harsh,
:12:35. > :12:40.backward dictatorship without a shred of wisdom. If you in the
:12:40. > :12:44.Sunni community are seeing the sort of things about the Prime Minister,
:12:44. > :12:51.you yourself are ratcheting up the sectarian tensions and hatred in
:12:51. > :13:00.your own country and that is irresponsible. Could you just
:13:00. > :13:10.highlight what sort of behaviour and conduct I have adopted or were
:13:10. > :13:11.
:13:11. > :13:16.the past six years? I have been in the peaceful process. The most
:13:16. > :13:20.obvious one, the one we have discussed. You refused to go home
:13:20. > :13:25.to face justice, claiming that the justice system is loaded against
:13:25. > :13:32.you. You are the vice-president and have sworn oath of loyalty to the
:13:32. > :13:37.state. If you were serious about your own olds, you would want to go
:13:37. > :13:45.back and be part of the system, albeit as a defendant in a trial.
:13:45. > :13:52.am ready, provided I am guaranteed, by the international community and
:13:52. > :14:01.the United Nations affair court and enough protection is rendered to
:14:01. > :14:07.myself and my bodyguards are released from unbelievable torture.
:14:07. > :14:13.I am driving at the wider question. You made your point about your
:14:13. > :14:20.satisfaction of the way the trial is being conducted. The wider
:14:20. > :14:27.question, there was supposed to be a unity approach to governance and
:14:27. > :14:32.policy in Iraq after the 2010 election but, as I understand, co-
:14:32. > :14:42.operation has been withdrawn from the Government's insure exile in
:14:42. > :14:43.
:14:43. > :14:53.Turkey. Your communications minister and the Sunni committee
:14:53. > :14:55.
:14:55. > :14:59.are withdrawn their co-operation He should not blame us for that. --
:14:59. > :15:04.you. The agreement create the foundations of the current
:15:04. > :15:14.government, based on certain criteria. The starting with power-
:15:14. > :15:21.
:15:21. > :15:28.sharing. There was a coup against power-sharing and power
:15:28. > :15:34.consolidation. He managed to turn his eyes blind on his publications
:15:34. > :15:40.according to an agreement. Should we be blamed because we're not co-
:15:40. > :15:45.operating with the Prime Minister? Tom Lee we were talking about the
:15:45. > :15:55.relationship between them? And Biden to take the relationship
:15:55. > :15:58.
:15:58. > :16:06.between the central government and the other group? The hectic
:16:06. > :16:10.relationship. They were trying to come -- can find the problem
:16:11. > :16:20.between the Shi'ite Sen the sore knees. It comes in the context of
:16:20. > :16:24.the even worse chaos we see in Syria. All the intelligence
:16:24. > :16:30.suggests that there are increasing flows of arms, weapons and militant
:16:30. > :16:35.fighters crossing between Iraq and Syria. Militant Sunni fight is
:16:35. > :16:41.going into Syria from Iraq and others coming back the other way.
:16:41. > :16:45.We see a rise in Al-Qaeda related violence inside Iraq, particularly
:16:45. > :16:54.this summer. Is it not incumbent upon you as a senior Sunni
:16:54. > :17:04.political figure to calm things down? To try and figure out a way
:17:04. > :17:05.
:17:05. > :17:15.to reach out? We tried our best. We spent months in talks trying to
:17:15. > :17:15.
:17:15. > :17:25.reach some sort of compromise. I have been involved before this
:17:25. > :17:27.
:17:27. > :17:35.crisis. I tried to bring some sort of joint understanding destabilise
:17:35. > :17:44.the political process and pushed things ahead. And to concentrate on
:17:44. > :17:53.serving our people end enhancing economic development. But
:17:53. > :18:02.regardless, we have reached an impasse. He keeps promising and at
:18:02. > :18:12.the end of the day, he delivers nothing. So he has lost the
:18:12. > :18:13.
:18:13. > :18:22.confidence of politicians in this government. We have made that
:18:22. > :18:27.message very clear. -- you have be. We're open-minded and are prepared
:18:27. > :18:32.to sit down again and look for any opportunities to put an end to this
:18:32. > :18:42.political stagnation. I weather -- wonder whether you are being used
:18:42. > :18:45.
:18:45. > :18:51.as a political pawn in Turkey. Al Nallet key still has a deal of
:18:51. > :19:01.sympathy with the Assad regime. The Turks clearly what a start gone. It
:19:01. > :19:05.
:19:05. > :19:10.seems quite useful for Turkey to use you in their original game. --
:19:10. > :19:20.their regional game. I'm not an instrument in any party. I'm here
:19:20. > :19:25.
:19:25. > :19:35.in Turkey as a politician. I have my own opinions about what is going
:19:35. > :19:38.
:19:38. > :19:43.on in Turkey but I'm not a part of any body's agenda. Do you think the
:19:43. > :19:53.chaos we see is inevitably going to further destabilise what is already
:19:53. > :20:04.
:20:04. > :20:11.a deeply fragile situation in your country? I don't want to follow the
:20:11. > :20:16.people. They have their sectarian limitations. I think Syrian
:20:16. > :20:26.citizens are interested in getting what they are legitimate they
:20:26. > :20:32.deserve. It is not a sectarian civil war between the Syrian people
:20:32. > :20:42.and the Assad regime. This is why are we should be supportive of the
:20:42. > :20:49.initiative taken by those people and try to assist them in changing
:20:49. > :20:59.their dictatorship and turning their autocratic -- autocratic
:20:59. > :21:00.
:21:00. > :21:05.regime in to a democratic one. As you are fully aware, the previous
:21:05. > :21:15.regime has been toppled. We were unable to conclude the second phase
:21:15. > :21:17.
:21:17. > :21:20.of the change - establishing a regime of alternatives. You say we
:21:20. > :21:25.should not characterise what is happening in Syria as a sectarian
:21:25. > :21:32.war, but there is no question that inside Iraq, sectarian tensions and
:21:32. > :21:37.hatreds are at the heart of so many of the problems we have discussed.
:21:37. > :21:47.Do you believe now that the only way forward for Iraq is full
:21:47. > :21:52.
:21:52. > :21:56.autonomy? Is that what must happen in your view? We do have a problem
:21:56. > :22:04.about the style of rule in my country. We have a constitution and
:22:04. > :22:14.a political process and everyone is interested in keeping Iraq United.
:22:14. > :22:16.
:22:16. > :22:25.In addition, there is a legitimate Rights for them to turn themselves
:22:25. > :22:32.into a region. This is a constitutional desire. I am not
:22:33. > :22:42.afraid of the country being broken into two part. To not relate this
:22:42. > :22:52.subject to the sectarian strife. There is currently a problem and it
:22:52. > :23:03.
:23:03. > :23:07.is related to the way of governing Iraq. When he leaves power, and it
:23:07. > :23:14.used to the criteria of the political process, there will be no
:23:14. > :23:23.fear about the unity of Iraq. want to put a final thought to you
:23:23. > :23:25.about the Americans. America were in your country for so long and I
:23:25. > :23:32.wonder if you believe they were that the American administration
:23:32. > :23:42.can afford to wash their hands of Iraq or authorities likely to be a
:23:42. > :23:46.damaging strategy in the long run. I am upset when the hero American
:23:46. > :23:56.officials saying the US has have felt their mission and left Iraq
:23:56. > :23:57.
:23:57. > :24:02.stable and democratic and independent. This is false. I think
:24:02. > :24:07.the US and Western countries should fulfil their commitment, keep