:00:02. > :00:12.permanent. Some retailers report trade falling by 20%.
:00:12. > :00:13.
:00:13. > :00:16.Now it is time for HARDtalk. The future of the Gulf state of Bahrain
:00:16. > :00:19.remains uncertain after 18 months of street protests inspired by the
:00:19. > :00:22.Arab Spring. Some of the most outspoken Bahraini critics of the
:00:22. > :00:32.ruling Khalifa family are behind bars, and violent clashes between
:00:32. > :00:33.
:00:33. > :00:36.police and demonstrators continue. Maryam Al-Khawaja is a prominent
:00:36. > :00:39.human rights campaigner whose father was sentenced to life in
:00:39. > :00:49.prison for plotting to overthrow the government. Who will win the
:00:49. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:21.fight for Bahrain's future? Maryam Al-Khawaja, welcome to
:01:21. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:29.HARDtalk. Thank you. Let me ask you are you are in Copenhagen? I know
:01:29. > :01:33.you have dual citizenship - Danish citizenship as well as Bahrain. Why
:01:33. > :01:39.are you there, when many people would think he would be fighting
:01:39. > :01:42.the fight in Bahrain itself? There are several ways and several tools
:01:42. > :01:47.one uses as a human rights defender when it comes to fighting
:01:47. > :01:50.violations. One of those tools his international advocacy. It is
:01:50. > :01:53.important to have people on the ground were documenting the
:01:53. > :01:56.violations and making sure the outside knows about it, but it's
:01:57. > :02:01.also important for people on the outside to make sure that
:02:01. > :02:06.information is given to those who can use it to preserve human rights
:02:06. > :02:10.and stop the violations. My job is international advocacy. Meeting
:02:10. > :02:15.with people who might be able to influence the human rights
:02:15. > :02:19.situation in Bahrain. You are an activist, a campaigner. You are
:02:19. > :02:25.also a daughter. Your father has been retried on the most serious
:02:25. > :02:30.security charges, found guilty, and sentenced, again, to life in prison.
:02:30. > :02:38.Have you spoken to your father in the last few days? The last time I
:02:38. > :02:40.spoke to my father was 3-4 days ago, yes. In the recent past, he has
:02:40. > :02:46.conducted a hunger strike that lasted more than 100 days because
:02:47. > :02:56.of his treatment and the judicial process inside place-mac 1's prison
:02:57. > :02:57.
:02:57. > :03:05.system. Now that he has been convicted again -- Bahrain's...
:03:05. > :03:08.What is he going to do? judicial system in Bahrain is not
:03:08. > :03:18.independent off-air. It does not hold up the international standards
:03:18. > :03:26.
:03:26. > :03:35.of a fair trial. -- or fair. If they were to come out and say this
:03:35. > :03:38.was the final stage in the process, the international community would
:03:38. > :03:46.become an uproar.... Now I am still waiting for the lawyer to tell us
:03:46. > :03:50.whether my father has decided to appeal again for a verdict.
:03:50. > :03:57.suffered grave injuries at the time of his arrest, and it seems
:03:57. > :04:02.afterwards as well. We know he had major surgery on his face. His jaw
:04:02. > :04:08.was wired together. How would you describe his physical and mental
:04:08. > :04:12.health right now? I think mentally he is perfectly well. Like I said,
:04:12. > :04:18.I spoke to him a few days ago and he is in high spirits. He explains
:04:18. > :04:20.to me all the time that the initial demand of this movement is not the
:04:20. > :04:25.release of the political prisoners or the release of the prisoners of
:04:25. > :04:29.conscience. That is something that will come additionally as a result
:04:30. > :04:34.of the crackdown that came after the initiation of the protests. The
:04:34. > :04:38.initial demands are preserving and institutionalising human rights, a
:04:38. > :04:40.government that respects human rights. For a lot of these
:04:40. > :04:44.political prisoners, they understand that their presence in
:04:44. > :04:48.prison is not the initial demand of the movement. They understand that
:04:48. > :04:52.being in prison as part of the process. Mentally speaking, he's
:04:52. > :04:59.very strong and he knows that this is part of the price for preserving
:04:59. > :05:04.human rights in the country. Physically speaking, of course, he
:05:04. > :05:08.is still recovering as it was a very long hunger-strike which
:05:08. > :05:13.lasted 110 days. It will take quite a while and took he is fully
:05:13. > :05:21.recovered. He seems to be doing better. You say high spirits, but I
:05:21. > :05:25.wonder if he, and indeed you, have been disappointed by what one would
:05:25. > :05:31.call a muted international reaction to the latest court decision. The
:05:31. > :05:40.United States expressed serious disappointment, the Danish
:05:40. > :05:45.government protested about it, the U N Advisory Group on arbitrary
:05:45. > :05:50.detention made a comment, but it was fairly muted. You disappointed?
:05:51. > :05:54.I'm not sure about him, but according to my work
:05:54. > :05:59.internationally, this is not something that I am shocked by.
:05:59. > :06:05.There has been more or less a muted response towards most of the human
:06:05. > :06:11.rights violations in Bahrain, including extra-judicial killings,
:06:11. > :06:14.sometimes of miners under 18. We have seen parts of the Danish
:06:14. > :06:18.government, the spokesperson for the ruling party in Denmark, come
:06:18. > :06:21.out and talk about initiating a dialogue on sanctions against
:06:21. > :06:25.Bahrain. I think that is an important step forward and
:06:25. > :06:28.something that is welcomed by the human rights group in Bahrain. We
:06:28. > :06:33.look forward to seeing what concrete actions will be taken
:06:33. > :06:39.towards stopping the human rights violations. Of course, as we always
:06:39. > :06:46.say, you judge his situation in any country by looking at how they
:06:46. > :06:50.treat their human rights defenders. Currently in Bahrain, the most
:06:50. > :06:54.prominent human rights defenders are in prison. If I go back, even
:06:54. > :07:00.if there is no standing warrant, I will be arrested for banned from
:07:00. > :07:04.travelling. That is why, for the time being, it is better for me to
:07:04. > :07:08.stay a broad and try to advocate for the human rights situation in
:07:08. > :07:12.Bahrain. Not that I am afraid of going back - I think that sometimes
:07:12. > :07:18.in certain countries the place for at any just person or a person
:07:18. > :07:21.fighting for justice, is the prison system. Do you see yourself as a
:07:22. > :07:27.revolutionary? I am mindful something you said in March 2011 at
:07:27. > :07:32.the height of the protest in Bahrain - you referred your return
:07:32. > :07:40.to the country just a few days before, you said "I came back after
:07:40. > :07:43.the revolution started". You still see yourself as a revolutionary?
:07:43. > :07:47.think we characterise ourselves more specifically as human rights
:07:47. > :07:51.defenders. In countries where you have authoritarian regimes,
:07:51. > :07:57.automatically, as a human rights defender, you are considered one of
:07:57. > :08:00.the worst enemies of the government. You automatically become part of
:08:00. > :08:04.the revolutionary process that takes place in these countries. As
:08:04. > :08:10.such, looking at it from this perspective, I guess we are
:08:10. > :08:13.regarded as being part of the revolutionary process. It is
:08:13. > :08:19.important to differentiate between being a human rights campaigner and
:08:19. > :08:23.a revolutionary. If you really see your ultimate goal to be achieved
:08:23. > :08:27.only through the overthrow of the current regime in Bahrain, it is
:08:27. > :08:31.hardly surprising that the sorts of reforms the government has made in
:08:31. > :08:41.the last few months are never going to be acceptable to you because you
:08:41. > :08:42.
:08:42. > :08:46.have made the decision that VAT regime must go, yes? -- that that.
:08:46. > :08:50.No. Our stance has always been very public - as a human rights
:08:50. > :08:54.organisation we do not call for the change of the regime, we call for a
:08:55. > :08:59.specific government. We don't call for a democracy, a monarchy, a
:08:59. > :09:02.republic - we call for a government that respects human rights. That
:09:02. > :09:07.institutionalise his human rights and grants people their rights as
:09:07. > :09:10.citizens of that country. One of the things we have said, though, it
:09:10. > :09:15.is that if the King, the Prime Minister and the Crown Prince are
:09:15. > :09:18.found to be guilty of crimes against humanity or other kinds of
:09:18. > :09:23.human rights violations, they need to be held accountable. That should
:09:23. > :09:27.only come in the form of an open, fair and independent trial
:09:27. > :09:31.according to international standards. But if human rights is
:09:31. > :09:37.your prime and sole concern, why have I not heard warm words of
:09:37. > :09:41.welcome for you and your colleagues for the substantial changes that
:09:42. > :09:51.the Kinnock and his team have made in the last few months? First of
:09:52. > :09:56.
:09:56. > :10:01.all, the independent committee of inquiry. -- the King.... We have
:10:01. > :10:07.seen reforms of the security services, police service reforms,
:10:07. > :10:11.promises that there will be no more of these secret interrogations
:10:11. > :10:17.behind closed doors with no cameras. I could point to you a whole list
:10:18. > :10:25.of reforms that your government has pledged to make. I would have to
:10:26. > :10:29.clarify here - first of all, as human rights defenders and as the
:10:29. > :10:34.Bahrain Centre for Human Rights, I have stayed on several occasions
:10:34. > :10:37.that we welcome these changes. We might have differences with some of
:10:37. > :10:42.the parts of the report, but we welcome it in general. We hope that
:10:42. > :10:45.would be a turning point for Bahrain where we would see an end
:10:45. > :10:49.to the human rights violations. There is a huge difference to
:10:49. > :10:53.making pledges of reform and actually reforming. What we have
:10:53. > :10:56.seen, and we have a document of this in the reports you can find on
:10:56. > :11:00.a website, is that the violations that were mentioned in this report
:11:00. > :11:04.have continued to happen on the ground. There is a huge difference
:11:04. > :11:07.between welcoming the recommendations of the report
:11:07. > :11:12.itself and saying "the Bahrain regime is not implementing the
:11:12. > :11:19.promises they made". With respect, it's not all the tricks. We have
:11:19. > :11:24.seen hundreds of prisoners released over the last six months --
:11:24. > :11:28.rhetoric. We have seen additional pressure on the parliament to
:11:28. > :11:35.scrutinise legislation. For you to dismiss it as an empty rhetoric is
:11:35. > :11:38.not acceptable. Of course. We have said that there have been some
:11:38. > :11:41.recommendations that have been implemented, such as setting up
:11:41. > :11:45.cameras in police stations. There is a difference between
:11:45. > :11:48.acknowledging some of the steps forward and also making a very
:11:48. > :11:53.obvious, talking about the recommendations that have not been
:11:53. > :11:57.fulfilled. One of the initial things are the recommendations that
:11:57. > :12:00.could have been filled within days that have not happened, for example
:12:00. > :12:04.- using excessive force against protesters on the streets. They
:12:04. > :12:09.just needed to be an order issued from the highest authorities in the
:12:09. > :12:12.country that police were no longer allowed to use excessive force.
:12:12. > :12:17.That has not happened. Accountability - people who have
:12:17. > :12:23.ordered, overseen or participated in violations against human rights,
:12:23. > :12:27.King's own son - there have been several accusations and allegations
:12:27. > :12:31.of him being involved in torture. We haven't seen people being held
:12:31. > :12:36.accountable. We are still looking at a situation where the very basic
:12:36. > :12:40.violations that were documented last year are still ongoing....
:12:40. > :12:45.have interviewed the senior member of the government in Bahrain. He
:12:45. > :12:47.pointed out, and it seems to be true, that up to 50 different
:12:47. > :12:50.investigations and allegations against security force personnel
:12:50. > :12:54.have been undertaken by the government. It's not as though they
:12:54. > :12:58.are doing nothing. Of course, but the question is - how many people
:12:58. > :13:03.have actually been sentenced? How many people have been stopped from
:13:03. > :13:06.going to work? The police who were investigated are still on duty, and
:13:06. > :13:10.they are people were being charged with things like torture. You are
:13:10. > :13:13.looking at a situation where the government, within 24 hours, then
:13:13. > :13:18.claimed that they have caught terrorists, people who are planning
:13:18. > :13:21.terrorist activities. But it takes the more than 1.5 years to find
:13:21. > :13:24.someone who shot a protest in the back. I find it hard to believe
:13:24. > :13:27.they can't find these people who have committed these crimes when it
:13:27. > :13:31.comes to people who are serving in the government, but it takes them
:13:31. > :13:36.only a matter of hours to figure out which protester throws which
:13:36. > :13:39.Molotov cocktail. We do except that one of the problems, one of the
:13:39. > :13:42.reasons why the tension is so high and it seems there is so much
:13:42. > :13:48.mistrust in Bahrain right now, is because protesters continued to
:13:48. > :13:51.take to the streets with Molotov cocktails, with rocks as well, and
:13:51. > :13:54.attacked the security forces? We know at least five members of the
:13:54. > :13:59.security forces have been killed. There continue to be injuries on
:13:59. > :14:09.their side. Would you say that one of the biggest problems is that
:14:09. > :14:12.
:14:12. > :14:16.demonstrators refused to adopt non- The Bahrain Centre for Human Rights
:14:16. > :14:21.has been very specific in saying that protesters have to be non-
:14:21. > :14:28.violent and that we do not condone any acts of violence, no matter who
:14:28. > :14:31.is committing them. The situation has to be looked at in the full
:14:31. > :14:37.context. The five members of the security forces who were killed
:14:37. > :14:42.were all last year. This year and since Molotov cocktails started, we
:14:42. > :14:48.have not seen any doubts. Not that this condone his findings. But we
:14:48. > :14:50.have to differentiate the amount of violence being used by the regime
:14:50. > :14:56.against protesters and protesters who say they are defending
:14:56. > :15:00.themselves by using things like Molotov cocktails. On the one hand,
:15:00. > :15:06.systematic state run violence on the streets being carried out by
:15:06. > :15:12.security forces loyal to the regime. On the other hand, small groups of
:15:12. > :15:16.young boys who used Molotov cocktails and stones due to the
:15:16. > :15:21.inaction of the international community in relation to human
:15:21. > :15:30.rights violations. When you use powerful language like that,
:15:30. > :15:34.painting images like that, I wonder if you agree with some prominent
:15:34. > :15:38.politicians, Shi'ite politicians, who say that despite all the
:15:38. > :15:44.tensions and problems with the Bahraini government, it is time to
:15:44. > :15:47.talk. Time for a dialogue without preconditions. Hearing you and your
:15:48. > :15:53.characterisation of what is happening, it seems to me that you
:15:53. > :15:58.do not believe a dialogue without preconditions would be helpful. Do
:15:58. > :16:05.you? As human rights defenders, we are not engaged. We do not offer
:16:05. > :16:08.his stance on political dialogue. We are not involved in political
:16:08. > :16:13.discussions. That said, it is important for the human rights
:16:13. > :16:18.violations to stop first. Attacks on people in the street, nightly
:16:18. > :16:24.raids on people's homes. Torture in unofficial detention centres.
:16:24. > :16:29.you say that, you are making a very political statement. When you are
:16:29. > :16:32.saying the government cannot be taken at face value, that they
:16:32. > :16:38.cannot be believed and therefore cannot be talked to at this moment
:16:38. > :16:43.in time, that is very, very political. I am not saying they
:16:43. > :16:49.cannot be talked to. That is not something we will engage in,
:16:49. > :16:53.however, because we are not a political society. If we want the
:16:53. > :16:59.best to come out of these talks, we have got to see a stop to human
:16:59. > :17:04.rights violations. That is our only position. Whether there is or not a
:17:04. > :17:08.political dialogue, that is not our place to say. I have mentioned the
:17:08. > :17:14.Shi'ite community and that political party. It is clear that
:17:14. > :17:20.as tensions continue in Bahrain, it is becoming more and more sectarian.
:17:20. > :17:25.Would you except that? I would think that the majority of the
:17:25. > :17:30.sectarian tensions that are developing in Bahrain - and I spoke
:17:30. > :17:34.about this more than one year ago when I said that if the community,
:17:34. > :17:39.the international community did not move fast enough, sectarian
:17:40. > :17:45.violence will build up in Bahrain - this started from the regime itself.
:17:45. > :17:51.The fact that the regime started a sectarian crackdown was a message,
:17:51. > :17:56.local and international, in first - - in portraying the situation as
:17:56. > :18:00.sectarian. It was not that at first. The more people are targeted
:18:00. > :18:04.because of their sector, it is more likely that people will turn
:18:04. > :18:08.sectarian. You know much more than I do that the Bahraini government
:18:08. > :18:14.is adamant that senior figures in the activist movement, including
:18:14. > :18:20.your father, have had direct contact - they call it intelligence
:18:20. > :18:26.contact - with agencies working on behalf of Iran. It seems they mean
:18:26. > :18:30.Hezbollah more than anybody else. Is that true? The regime's own
:18:30. > :18:35.report, the Bahrain independent commission of inquiry, found no
:18:35. > :18:42.evidence of Iran being involved in the protest movements in Bahrain.
:18:43. > :18:47.My father, for example, and other people involved in that case I'll
:18:47. > :18:51.recognised individuals by the international community's. Human
:18:51. > :18:56.Rights Watch conducted a thorough report of the trial, especially of
:18:57. > :19:01.the Bahrain 13 including my father, which found that all of the charges
:19:01. > :19:06.against these people were made it based on actions that they had
:19:06. > :19:13.conducted based on freedom of expression, based on their right to
:19:13. > :19:17.protest and otherwise. With respect, there is freedom of expression and
:19:17. > :19:21.there is freedom of expression. One senior member of the Shura council
:19:21. > :19:25.who has been on this programme claims that there is clear evidence
:19:25. > :19:30.including video evidence of Shi'ite clerics in some of the villagers
:19:30. > :19:35.were most of the unrest has been saying inciting young Shi'ite
:19:35. > :19:40.activists to take to the streets. First of all, there is a difference.
:19:40. > :19:44.You are talking about people in the court case. Relating to that, I
:19:44. > :19:48.want to see the evidence. The government has not provided that.
:19:48. > :19:53.If we are talking about clerics on the streets, it depends on what
:19:53. > :19:57.they are saying. Calling for violence is problematic. They must
:19:57. > :20:01.be given a fair and independent trial. That is something the
:20:01. > :20:05.judiciary system in Bahrain does not supply. If they are not calling
:20:05. > :20:10.for violence, if they are calling for people to go out and practise
:20:10. > :20:15.their right to protest, that is not a violation of the law. That is
:20:15. > :20:19.something that is guaranteed by the Declaration of Human Rights
:20:19. > :20:23.internationally. I want to ask you about where the US stands in all of
:20:23. > :20:29.this. We can tell from your voice that you have had some education in
:20:29. > :20:33.the US. You know the US very well and you have some context there.
:20:33. > :20:37.How disappointed are you in the way that the Obama administration has
:20:37. > :20:43.failed to stand up for you, the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights and
:20:43. > :20:46.the opposition movement inside Bahrain?
:20:46. > :20:51.It is very problematic when we see the kind of double standards coming
:20:51. > :20:57.from places like the US today. The US, because of their Fifth Fleet
:20:57. > :21:02.and by rain's geopolitical interest with the US, we are seeing the
:21:02. > :21:07.rhetoric today that if you are an ally of the West, an ally of the UK
:21:07. > :21:12.and US, you can get away with human rights that -- violations. Not only
:21:12. > :21:16.can you get away with it, it will not be discussed internationally.
:21:16. > :21:22.They will actually continue to sell you arms while you are continuing
:21:22. > :21:27.to commit those violations. That is very difficult for countries that,
:21:27. > :21:32.out, saying that they have a pledge towards human rights and
:21:32. > :21:35.democracies. I can give you a quote from a
:21:35. > :21:39.leading figure in the opposition movement who is serving his and
:21:39. > :21:46.three-year sentence in Bahrain. He said not long ago that Americans
:21:46. > :21:50.are against democracy in Bahrain, now. Do you believe that? For many
:21:50. > :21:55.people living inside Bahrain, they see the US as being involved in
:21:55. > :21:59.this situation. Given that the US has not taken a very consistent,
:21:59. > :22:04.strong stance on human rights violations, given that there have
:22:04. > :22:09.not been any consequences towards the bar rainy regime for these
:22:09. > :22:12.violations that they continue to commit. Many people believe that
:22:12. > :22:17.the US is condoning these violations going on in Bahrain. I
:22:17. > :22:21.have spoken with people in the US and gave him only stand against
:22:21. > :22:26.that. They say they are not condoning the violations. They say
:22:26. > :22:30.they want to see an end to the violations. But until we see very
:22:30. > :22:35.specific actions... Actions that actually put pressure on the
:22:35. > :22:40.Bahrain regime to stop violations, we will continue to see a rise in
:22:40. > :22:45.anti-US sentiment inside Bahrain. Briefly, because we are almost at
:22:46. > :22:50.the end, not only have you got this problem with the US, you have been
:22:50. > :22:54.barred from post revolutionary Egypt as well. When you look around
:22:54. > :22:58.and you look at the power that the Bahrain government seems to have
:22:58. > :23:01.today, would you accept that there is very little hope of the
:23:01. > :23:08.opposition movement in Bahrain achieving its goals in the
:23:08. > :23:11.foreseeable future? Well, you know... I don't like
:23:11. > :23:15.calling it the Arab Spring, which is what it is known as
:23:15. > :23:18.internationally, but if we look at that specifically, there are many
:23:18. > :23:23.countries where the protests started and people said it was not
:23:23. > :23:27.possible for them to achieve anything. That the dictator or the
:23:27. > :23:32.regime at that point was too strong. And yet they have been able to
:23:32. > :23:36.achieve. In our work as human rights defenders, we have got to