:00:05. > :00:13.the year. That is the summary of now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:13. > :00:16.Goodnight. Welcome to HARDtalk with me, Zeinab
:00:16. > :00:19.Badawi. To their critics they're publicity hungry blasphemers. To
:00:19. > :00:21.rockers rockers protesting against what
:00:21. > :00:27.Vladimir Vladimir Putin's authoritarianism
:00:27. > :00:31.and sexism. When three members of the Russian band Pussy Riot were
:00:31. > :00:33.international outcry. They were found guilty of hooliganism for
:00:33. > :00:43.staging an illegal performance early this year in Moscow's
:00:43. > :00:46.
:00:46. > :00:56.guest today is Pyotr Verzilov, the Is Pussy Riot's high media profile
:00:56. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:27.rather Pyotr Verzi
:01:27. > :01:35.to to HARDtalk. Good to be here.
:01:35. > :01:43.wife is in prison now, does she other two girls don't have any
:01:43. > :01:50.regrets for what has happened. We has happened, and the response to
:01:50. > :01:54.happened happened for a very good reason.
:01:54. > :02:02.feelin analysis
:02:02. > :02:04.analysis and the critique which action,
:02:04. > :02:08.action, after the girl's' performance, it has helped to
:02:08. > :02:14.illustrate what is happening in Russia. They do feel they are
:02:14. > :02:23.paying the price for a statement. them
:02:23. > :02:27.in your
:02:27. > :02:34.your wife, Nadya, is paying is that often does
:02:34. > :02:42.often does she see her? She is The
:02:42. > :02:44.The last time she saw Nadya was six months ago. How does that make Hera
:02:44. > :02:49.makes up a feel? She feels very worried. She
:02:49. > :02:54.makes up a lot of things for herself. Sh
:02:54. > :02:57.locked princess, a
:02:57. > :03:07.princess, and she draws all these plans with tractors and trolley
:03:07. > :03:17.buses and other kinds of equipment she Friis an idea. This is very
:03:17. > :03:19.
:03:19. > :03:27.important for her -- she Friis Nadya. She has still got 14 months
:03:27. > :03:31.to serve, although she got a 2-year since
:03:31. > :03:37.since February/March was taken into account. It is a long time to be
:03:37. > :03:40.separated from your child. It is, especially for this age when your
:03:40. > :03:45.time you wi time you will see her will be when
:03:45. > :03:50.she is six years old. It has a huge impact on a child's development. It
:03:50. > :03:56.is a very big trauma. Nadya and the other Bachmann members, what did
:03:56. > :04:06.they think they were going to achieve? They went into this
:04:06. > :04:13.
:04:13. > :04:19.cathedral in Moscow and sang this song, Virgin Mary Kick Out Putin.
:04:19. > :04:26.They brought attention to issues that had been seen as secondary in
:04:26. > :04:32.Russian society. That was firstly the unacceptably close connection
:04:32. > :04:35.of the Church and the state. And secondly the near sacred status of
:04:35. > :04:40.state power in been
:04:40. > :04:45.last 12 yea last 12 years of Putin's rural.
:04:45. > :04:49.and and religion, but as Putin said in
:04:49. > :04:53.an interview in September on Russian te has
:04:54. > :04:57.to protect the feelings of believers. He said, "You know
:04:57. > :05:01.Russians still have painful memories of the early years of
:05:01. > :05:05.Soviet rule. The Soviet authorities brutally repressed the clergy, many
:05:06. > :05:14.churches were destroyed, the attacks had a devastating effect on
:05:14. > :05:20.exactly this same attitude is being recalled by a main the Liberal
:05:20. > :05:24.people inside Russia's Orthodox Church. For example the Church's
:05:24. > :05:28.most renowned thinker, Father Andrey Kuraas been
:05:28. > :05:33.constantly saying that it is unbelievable how quickly people
:05:33. > :05:38.have forgotten all of the pain done to the church and how quickly
:05:38. > :05:43.people are ready to put handcuffs on other people in the name of
:05:43. > :05:51.incredible incredible to seek how absolutely
:05:51. > :06:01.all memory of State repressions have disappat is
:06:01. > :06:06.
:06:06. > :06:14.not exactly true, looking at the over, she said that it severely
:06:14. > :06:19.insulted believers. And in a RIA Novosti poll, it said it insulted
:06:19. > :06:26.them as well. The. Putin makes is a valid one, but in effect all they
:06:26. > :06:30.achieved their was to defend people's religious sensibilities.
:06:30. > :06:35.If you look from the point of view of Christian philosophy and
:06:35. > :06:40.Christianity as a religion it really is impossible to defend
:06:40. > :06:45.one's Christian feelings. It i the other hand possible to attend
:06:45. > :06:50.one's feelings of deep respect towards certain traditionalist
:06:50. > :06:56.Conservative rituals, which have long been nurtured in your country.
:06:56. > :07:01.And so when people refer 2000 year- old Russian values, which have been
:07:01. > :07:11.supposedly insulted, they are not referring to Christian values. They
:07:11. > :07:14.ideas which exist in people's minds, and which will have a very bleak
:07:14. > :07:19.and distant relationship to the values that Christianity has stood
:07:19. > :07:24.up for in the last 2000 years. you think that Christianity stands
:07:24. > :07:31.for the kind of values that would allow three young women to go into
:07:31. > :07:35.the Cathedral in Moscow, perform their songs, high kicks at the
:07:35. > :07:39.Alter and so long, because that would not be allowed in a lot ies.
:07:39. > :07:45.countries. I doubt you would be able to do able to do estminster
:07:45. > :07:49.Cathedral, St Paul's Cathedral, in public order offence. Obviously in
:07:49. > :07:56.mentio or
:07:56. > :08:01.church and they would have charges brought against them. But in no
:08:01. > :08:09.country wou substantialtime
:08:09. > :08:13.for this. Anyone in any Western country for getting something in
:08:13. > :08:17.excess of a month or two weeks in prison for this is completely
:08:17. > :08:21.unlikely. That is a different point you're making, when the band wrote
:08:21. > :08:28.a letter to the Times of London saying that what they did was a
:08:28. > :08:32.another band member, Yekaterina Samutsevich, said the whole world
:08:32. > :08:36.is saying we are not guilty. That is not what the whole world is
:08:36. > :08:40.did did should be seen as a public
:08:40. > :08:49.order offence, but the sentence was disproportionate. In most countries
:08:49. > :08:54.Can Can you clarify for us, what Pussy
:08:54. > :09:00.was it was it legal and legitimate? Or was
:09:00. > :09:03.it simply that they were given a disproportionate sentence? In my
:09:03. > :09:07.opinion, and obviously I have to treat this as an artist first of
:09:07. > :09:17.all because I am an artist, when a court of law reduce a certain case
:09:17. > :09:26.absolutely all reasons why a reviews. Here we see that people,
:09:26. > :09:32.action, they did not do it because of certain considerations for
:09:32. > :09:39.did it for precisely stated and clearly understood political
:09:39. > :09:47.reasons. In this instance a court of law in my opinion should give a
:09:47. > :09:53.they did was illegal? You're what
:09:53. > :09:56.what they did was illegal basically? I'm saying that if you
:09:56. > :10:01.say it is illegal under the administrative code of the Ratten
:10:01. > :10:09.Federation, I can except that what was done was illegal under the
:10:09. > :10:14.Federation -- accept, under the Article 5.2 the girls should have been given,
:10:14. > :10:24.Article 5.2 Administrat
:10:24. > :10:25.
:10:25. > :10:35.There's a Mac maximum fine of 1000 say you describe yourself as an
:10:35. > :10:36.
:10:36. > :10:46.idea, were part of a wider political art movement, will
:10:46. > :10:54.
:10:54. > :11:00.We have seen things like this with these actions as crude, aggressive,
:11:00. > :11:04.to be crude, aggressive and provocative because it has a very
:11:04. > :11:09.important goal are the wakening a people in the situation when they
:11:09. > :11:14.can't be awoken by anything else. So this is what art is supposed to
:11:14. > :11:18.creating hi creating his paintings in the
:11:18. > :11:22.beginning of the 20th century seemed very disturbing to a lot of
:11:22. > :11:30.people that were used to the traditional approach to art. But at
:11:30. > :11:34.the same time they did open the dissented u
:11:34. > :11:39.dissented up until that point that the role of people was changing at
:11:39. > :11:43.that point in history. Political art can be used to counter state
:11:43. > :11:48.propaganda But in what way do you think that
:11:48. > :11:58.the actions that you and your wife took part in in 2008, when you were
:11:58. > :12:01.
:12:01. > :12:05.amongst couples at Moscow's YELLOW biological Museum, actually.
:12:05. > :12:12.Sorry. And you were having public sex as a group. And she was very
:12:12. > :12:22.heavily pregnant at the time. In what way does that advance
:12:22. > :12:23.
:12:23. > :12:30.That action was done for a very the
:12:30. > :12:33.the presidential elections in Russia, it was done after we
:12:33. > :12:43.decided a certain metaphor would describe what is happening in
:12:43. > :12:53.Russia. Just as you have an act of physical love, which can be called
:12:53. > :12:55.
:12:55. > :12:58.sex, existing. An imitation of that Act, pornography, in the same way
:12:59. > :13:04.approaches approaches and a very bleak
:13:04. > :13:14.imitation of that which existed and still exists in Russia. When we saw
:13:14. > :13:16.
:13:16. > :13:23.situation, we decided it was our duty to make this quite shocking.
:13:23. > :13:29.In what way does it help to protest Medvedev, V
:13:29. > :13:35.Medvedev, Vladimir Putin's protege in 2008. In what way did public
:13:35. > :13:44.group sex make a protest against his election? You cannot call this
:13:44. > :13:50.exactly a protest. In this particular action, which is a work
:13:50. > :13:57.of art, it is a wakening call. A lot of people started to analyse
:13:57. > :14:03.what was In
:14:03. > :14:13.In 2008 we saw something very strange happening in Russia's
:14:13. > :14:28.
:14:28. > :14:38.electoral system. What evidence do The cost -- the impact on the
:14:38. > :14:45.
:14:45. > :14:50.of of photography, but this action
:14:50. > :14:56.provoked serious debates and discussions. That was the goal.
:14:56. > :15:01.Didn't it play into Vladimir Putin's hands? He said, it is OK if
:15:01. > :15:08.you want to do this privately, but I would not be certain about
:15:08. > :15:13.uploading your actions on the you can tur
:15:13. > :15:22.in in Russia, who are not happy about
:15:22. > :15:26.with your tactics, these shock tactics. I often have discussions
:15:26. > :15:36.always always asking, why does Vladimir
:15:36. > :15:43.
:15:43. > :15:51.Putin allow himself to see these incredible comments? -- Western
:15:51. > :15:58.friends. He referred to the Israeli president awer
:15:58. > :16:08.and all of us praise him for raping several women. There was no regret
:16:08. > :16:09.
:16:09. > :16:11.was off mic Putin has shown... I do not... That
:16:11. > :16:16.was off mic is
:16:16. > :16:23.is known to use rather fruity rather
:16:23. > :16:32.rather crude phraseology. Nevertheless, the point I making,
:16:32. > :16:37.your group sex allowed Vladimir Putin to depict Pussy Riot and
:16:37. > :16:43.Voina as people going for publicity and higher profile actions witng
:16:43. > :16:49.advancing a political cause. Russia this is a very usual
:16:49. > :16:54.argument that the government accuses everyone. Everyone who
:16:54. > :17:02.critiques, talks negative of Vladimir Putin at his policies
:17:03. > :17:12.simply going for publicity. -- and his policies. JPR and gathering
:17:13. > :17:18.
:17:18. > :17:27.comments on the internet. -- PR. emphasise
:17:27. > :17:31.emphasise how chauvinistic Russian society is. Nadezhda Tolokonnikova
:17:31. > :17:41.says we do not want people to focus on us as individuals, we want
:17:41. > :17:41.
:17:41. > :17:51.people to look at us as an idea. TUC the irony, she blatantly uses
:17:51. > :17:52.
:17:52. > :17:58.advance The ironic situation is that her
:17:58. > :18:06.youth, beauty and sexuality was uncovered by the police and courts.
:18:06. > :18:09.If the situation went on in any democratic country the authorities
:18:09. > :18:12.show trial show trial
:18:12. > :18:22.world. world. Nobody would bring up her
:18:22. > :18:24.
:18:24. > :18:30.a involved in the public orgy and
:18:30. > :18:33.uploaded it on the internet. That particul
:18:33. > :18:39.particular particular action was not made in a
:18:39. > :18:43.way that exploits sexuality. It is very different from pornography. No
:18:43. > :18:53.art expert, and a person who has seen pornography thinks it
:18:53. > :19:01.
:19:01. > :19:06.resembles any type... Another message that was the right -- Pussy
:19:06. > :19:11.Riot talk about, they are Against capitalism. They got a great deal
:19:11. > :19:21.of support from capitalist Western countries like the US, you have
:19:21. > :19:25.
:19:25. > :19:33.you you are railing against Western
:19:33. > :19:39.capitalism at the same time. cannot say that rail
:19:39. > :19:44.Western capitalism is been number one issue right now. All of us have
:19:44. > :19:48.a lot of questions towards how certain elements of the politi
:19:48. > :19:52.and economic system work in the West, but we consider that a
:19:52. > :19:56.secondary issue right now compared to the main
:19:56. > :20:06.achiev achieve in battling Vladimir
:20:06. > :20:10.
:20:10. > :20:19.Putin's sys Putin's sys. Vadim Nikitin said what wsy
:20:20. > :20:26.Riot once represents a threat to the esta the established order and the West.
:20:26. > :20:34.Threats to the establishment and the West? Real power for art is
:20:34. > :20:43.always a threat to the establishment. -- powerful. In this
:20:43. > :20:51.threat. How do you see ourselves as part of the wider opposition
:20:51. > :20:58.movement to Vladimir Putin? -- yourselves. You have got Alexei
:20:58. > :21:08.keep their distance from the Western media, had the EU fit into
:21:08. > :21:12.
:21:12. > :21:22.the movement? We see ourselves as a creative in the opposition. How do
:21:22. > :21:24.
:21:24. > :21:34.you fit. We have been quite successful in drawing these images.
:21:34. > :21:42.You personalise your criticisms in recent poll from the Levada-Centre,
:21:42. > :21:48.63% of Russians approved of regional bodies, the oligarchs and
:21:48. > :21:58.other officials. Even if Vladimir Putin was taken out of the picture
:21:58. > :21:59.
:21:59. > :22:04.for the sake of argument, Russia would not be fixed. We honestly, as
:22:04. > :22:09.well as most of the people in the Russian opposition, we believe
:22:09. > :22:19.today's political system depends on Vladimir Putin. Vladimir Putin over
:22:19. > :22:20.
:22:20. > :22:25.the last 12 years has become a symbol that the system is
:22:25. > :22:30.indestructible and not changeable. We believe that after such a symbol
:22:30. > :22:38.is dismantled and gone from Russia's political scene, that the
:22:38. > :22:43.path for change will really open. These people who feel secure with
:22:43. > :22:53.corporate corporate wrongdoing, when they
:22:53. > :22:53.
:22:53. > :22:58.commit the -- illegal acts, they feel they are protected by the
:22:58. > :23:06.system. Briefly, when your wife is released from prison, what is she
:23:06. > :23:09.going to do? Carry on with the protests? Definitely. They are very
:23:09. > :23:13.certain that once they believe they will fight and oppose Russia's
:23:13. > :23:20.system and do everything they can to make Russia a better country at
:23:20. > :23:24.any price. Risk of being imprisoned again? If you really love your
:23:24. > :23:32.do everything that you can to change it, you have to risk
:23:32. > :23:39.everything. They will continue with their focus on Vladimir Putin?