:00:07. > :00:09.A ruling is expected on Tuesday. Now, it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:09. > :00:12.Have opposition politicians in Zimbabwe learned the lessons of the
:00:12. > :00:15.violent and disputed elections in 2008 in which Robert Mugabe and his
:00:15. > :00:23.party Zanu-PF outmanoeuvred the Movement for Democratic Change, and
:00:23. > :00:26.held onto power? The MDC has since been in an uneasy power-sharing
:00:26. > :00:33.government, in which its main leader Morgan Tsvangirai is prime-
:00:33. > :00:35.minister. But a breakaway MDC faction led by the Commerce and
:00:35. > :00:44.Industry Minister, Welshman Ncube, is splintering the opposition ahead
:00:44. > :00:50.of fresh elections due by next June. I speak to Welshman Ncube and asks
:00:50. > :01:00.whether the opposition should be united to better oppose Zanu-PF? --
:01:00. > :01:28.
:01:28. > :01:33.Welcome to our welcome to HARDtalk. It is a general rule in politics,
:01:33. > :01:43.we can the opposition by splitting it. That is what you have done. --
:01:43. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :01:52.weaken. It is correct that if the parties united, it would be easier
:01:52. > :01:57.to win the elections than when we are all fighting from different
:01:57. > :02:07.corners, but there are things which are fundamental in matters of
:02:07. > :02:16.principle and policy that divide us and have made that difficult.
:02:17. > :02:24.that more important than forming a credible opposition? What is
:02:24. > :02:34.important is that when we oppose the other party, we must all be
:02:34. > :02:36.
:02:36. > :02:46.clear and united. The alternative government must affect differences
:02:46. > :02:50.from the previous government. When the things which divide us make
:02:50. > :02:59.some of us doubt that a new government would be different, it
:02:59. > :03:05.is important that we must oppose the previous government. There is
:03:05. > :03:13.no point in removing it only to replace it with the same entity.
:03:13. > :03:18.You are quoting Morgan genera with President Robert Mugabe? I'm not
:03:18. > :03:26.equating anyone. I'm saying that those things that divide us go to
:03:26. > :03:31.the heart about opposition. When we say we must be non-violent, we must
:03:31. > :03:41.mean it and believe it. When our colleagues practise violence
:03:41. > :03:41.
:03:41. > :03:47.against others... Which colleagues are you talking about here? Are you
:03:47. > :03:57.accusing the MDC faction led by the Prime Minister of waging some kind
:03:57. > :04:02.of campaign against your faction? am saying that the things which
:04:02. > :04:07.divide us or divided us at the time of the split are things to do with
:04:07. > :04:17.what I'm talking about. If we begin to act violently against each other
:04:17. > :04:21.
:04:21. > :04:27.and against ourselves, if we begin to defy a collective decisions, and
:04:27. > :04:37.we have local government structures which act as corruptly as they have,
:04:37. > :04:40.
:04:40. > :04:48.those are the things that divide us. The MPC split back in 2005 -- in BC
:04:48. > :04:55.Split, I will not go into the ins and outs of its, but he now lead a
:04:55. > :05:05.breakaway faction. Should the NDC not just remain united under the
:05:05. > :05:08.
:05:08. > :05:11.Prime Minister? He is highly acclaimed in international circles.
:05:11. > :05:21.The things that divide us now make it impossible for us to work
:05:21. > :05:25.together. What have you got against him? Absolutely nothing against him.
:05:25. > :05:33.Our differences are in our political behaviour is and the
:05:33. > :05:40.things we do as politicians. It is on record that our colleagues in
:05:40. > :05:47.the other faction often practise violence. He himself has reversed
:05:47. > :05:57.collectively made decisions. The local government structures have
:05:57. > :06:02.
:06:02. > :06:08.acted corruptly. You refer to the faction led by Morgan, but that is
:06:08. > :06:12.at odds with what the Community believes. The French government has
:06:12. > :06:17.conferred on him the Legion of Honour. But says he upholds
:06:17. > :06:23.universal aspirations, morals and the spirit of progress. The
:06:23. > :06:30.Australian Prime Minister has said that he is like Nelson Mandela will
:06:30. > :06:35.Aung San Suu Kyi, a remarkable figure of our times. The former
:06:35. > :06:40.American ambassador to Zimbabwe has described him as brave, committed,
:06:40. > :06:49.a Democrat. He is the only player on the scene with real star quality
:06:49. > :06:59.and the ability to rally the masses. All of this is at odds with what
:06:59. > :07:01.
:07:01. > :07:08.you say. I have lived in Zimbabwe and I work within these groups. I
:07:08. > :07:18.can tell you that the things on which we differ are fundamental.
:07:18. > :07:25.
:07:25. > :07:35.They go to the very heart of the struggle. We do not want to replace
:07:35. > :07:35.
:07:35. > :07:42.Zanu-PF with something like that. But there is lavish praise heaped
:07:42. > :07:51.upon Morgan Tsvangirai by a very international figures and it is not
:07:51. > :07:55.consistent with what you're saying. Those who might be in Australia or
:07:55. > :08:01.Paris or Washington are entitled to have their opinions about any of
:08:01. > :08:09.the leaders in Zimbabwe. Just as much as we are entitled to have our
:08:09. > :08:16.opinions about ourselves and our leader. But the former American
:08:16. > :08:24.ambassador spent many years in Zimbabwe. And what I quoted was
:08:24. > :08:32.what he said in 2010. Do you know what he said about you? I have read
:08:32. > :08:38.what he said. Let me remind you. He described you as "Highly divisive"
:08:38. > :08:48.and Sidhi should be taken off the political stage. -- said you should
:08:48. > :08:49.
:08:49. > :08:56.be. Yes, and what is the question? What do you answer to? -- answer to
:08:56. > :09:02.that quote? That is his opinion. As Democrats, we respected but we
:09:02. > :09:07.disagree with that. I do not know what it means when an ambassador of
:09:07. > :09:15.one of the biggest democracies in the world speaks of taking a leader
:09:15. > :09:18.off the political stage. I think it is unfortunate and can't be
:09:18. > :09:23.consistent with the values and principles the US wants to defend
:09:23. > :09:33.around the world. When we look at the global political agreement
:09:33. > :09:34.
:09:34. > :09:42.which came into force after the elections in 2008, he was stating
:09:42. > :09:52.quite clearly that this has been a failure, not only because of
:09:52. > :09:53.
:09:53. > :10:01.difficulties with Robert Mugabe, but within the MDC itself.
:10:01. > :10:05.inclusive government has not been a total failure. Clearly, we have
:10:05. > :10:08.failed in terms of political reforms. We should have created the
:10:08. > :10:15.necessary conditions for free and fair elections by now and that has
:10:15. > :10:24.not happened. There are many other reforms that we have not
:10:24. > :10:30.implemented. However, in terms of where Zimbabwe was in 2008 in
:10:30. > :10:35.economic terms, we have made a lot of progress. We were virtually on
:10:35. > :10:42.the verge of collapse. We have managed to resuscitate the economy
:10:42. > :10:48.and it is now working. People are still poor but you do not have an
:10:48. > :10:52.economy which is basically on its knees any more. It is on its way to
:10:52. > :11:01.recovery. Whether or not it recovers now depends on what
:11:01. > :11:08.happens at the next election. have a 400 million dollar budget
:11:08. > :11:14.deficit and growth head of -- has been downgraded from more than 9%
:11:14. > :11:22.to 5.6%. Even their progress has been made from a very low base, are
:11:22. > :11:26.things gone backwards now? -- going backwards. Some of the gains we
:11:26. > :11:31.have made over the last three years are threatened now what reversal,
:11:31. > :11:41.in particular as we move towards an election and begin to grandstand
:11:41. > :11:43.
:11:43. > :11:52.around election rhetoric. The industry recovered from
:11:52. > :11:59.capitalisation of 10% to 57% by the end of last year. It is not going
:11:59. > :12:03.anywhere now, largely because of our failure to stabilise the
:12:03. > :12:11.political environment and access lines of credit. We are beginning
:12:11. > :12:16.to see a reversal, but we needed to move as quickly as we can. We hope
:12:16. > :12:19.we can continue with the recovery. It is not just political
:12:19. > :12:27.instability, because people do not know when the elections will be
:12:27. > :12:31.happening. Is it also the in digitisation policy that came into
:12:31. > :12:35.effect in 2011, whereby foreign companies have to hand over 51% of
:12:35. > :12:45.the controlling share to local companies, and that has scared off
:12:45. > :12:51.foreign investors? That is true. As the minister responsible for trade,
:12:51. > :13:00.I spend a lot of my time talking to investors and business leaders in
:13:00. > :13:06.and outside Zimbabwe. There is no doubt that the elephant in the room
:13:06. > :13:16.is those laws. Many investors are unhappy with them and find it
:13:16. > :13:17.
:13:17. > :13:21.difficult to invest in Zimbabwe. We must do some form of empowerment.
:13:21. > :13:28.The thresholds which we have set out clearly unrealistic under the
:13:28. > :13:30.circumstances. When you talk about empowerment, the idea is that you
:13:30. > :13:37.make these interests more indigenous so the whole population
:13:37. > :13:47.can benefit. What is the evidence that any benefits will trickle down
:13:47. > :13:55.
:13:55. > :14:00.to the ordinary citizen? I do not like making things indigenous
:14:00. > :14:05.personally, I do not think it has any precise meaning. I think the
:14:05. > :14:09.term empowerment is more precise to what we want to achieve. We should
:14:09. > :14:16.be talking about encouraging investment so we can create jobs
:14:17. > :14:22.and employment for people and create the necessary business
:14:22. > :14:32.environments for Zimbabwean citizens to compete with others.
:14:32. > :14:48.
:14:48. > :14:53.Empowerment should not mean taking Zimbabwe is one of the richest
:14:53. > :14:57.countries in Africa. The mineral wealth is second to none. The
:14:57. > :15:05.climate and weather conditions, this land is among the best in the
:15:05. > :15:11.world in terms of agriculture. If we can fix our politics, fix our
:15:11. > :15:18.to able to deliver to our people by
:15:18. > :15:27.delivering a strong economy and strong and successful business.
:15:27. > :15:33.finance minister said that when he looked at the diamond field, he was
:15:33. > :15:40.expecting $600 million to go into state coffers but he has only
:15:40. > :15:45.are 230,000 fictitious government employees w employees wng salaries
:15:45. > :15:51.some hop. And 10,000 jobs have been created in the past few weeks in
:15:51. > :16:01.government. That is the reality of Zimbabwe. You talk about a new
:16:01. > :16:09.
:16:09. > :16:12.thing, that is not happening? you look at the diamond wealth and
:16:12. > :16:17.the diamond mining, mining, managing them properly we should be
:16:17. > :16:26.getting the sort of money that the Minister of pop finance has been
:16:26. > :16:31.mentioning. We are not doing it. The inclusi The inclusiment has not
:16:31. > :16:38.functioned as we had expected it to do. There is a lack of transparency
:16:38. > :16:44.around the diamond mine. All of those things cannot be fixed
:16:44. > :16:54.harmless we have a free and fair election. You're have just stated
:16:54. > :16:56.
:16:56. > :17:01.that to have no power? It is correct. There is a parallel
:17:01. > :17:04.government in many respects. That is why the finance government says
:17:04. > :17:10.there is no authority over the diamond mine and nothing
:17:10. > :17:13.accountable to them. To you have any power as Minister of Commerce
:17:13. > :17:22.and Industry to do what she would like to do to encourage investment
:17:22. > :17:28.and empowerment. Do you have the power? Yes and tomorrow. We have
:17:28. > :17:32.the authority to do those things that are within our mandate as a
:17:32. > :17:41.ministry where we do not need the co-operation of any one house. We
:17:41. > :17:45.have the power to do those things. But as a minister of industry where
:17:45. > :17:51.we require the co-operation of other arms and ministers we do not
:17:51. > :17:55.have the power. We're talking about the ministers controlled by Zanu-PF.
:17:55. > :18:00.Let us talk about free elections which could bring about some kind
:18:00. > :18:10.of stability. There is no date, you are squabbling about what should be
:18:10. > :18:15.in the draft constitution? Correct. We should have the elections or the
:18:15. > :18:22.parliament will stand up automatically good was dissolved on
:18:22. > :18:30.29th June next year. The elections must be held no longer than the end
:18:31. > :18:40.of October next year. We are expected to have done the
:18:41. > :18:42.
:18:42. > :18:46.constitution earlier than now. You're talking about the Southern
:18:46. > :18:52.African Development Corporation who were trying to mediate with all
:18:52. > :18:55.this. Spell out what the disagreements are. The Movement for
:18:55. > :18:59.Democratic Change are concerned about the powers of the Prime Mr
:18:59. > :19:07.and control over the armed forces. You have disagreements about same-
:19:07. > :19:17.sex marriage and dual citizenship. What are the stumbling blocks?
:19:17. > :19:17.
:19:17. > :19:22.me start by saying, a fiercely there is an agreement. The
:19:22. > :19:26.structure is what we have set to the parliamentary committee has
:19:26. > :19:33.agreed on a draft constitution signed by representatives of all
:19:33. > :19:40.parties and representatives of government. It has been overlooked
:19:40. > :19:46.by the court. There is an agreement, we must underline that. What is
:19:46. > :19:49.happening is an attempt by Zanu-PF to remake from the agreement by
:19:49. > :19:56.rewriting the agreed draft to include all his things you have
:19:56. > :20:02.mentioned. They are attempting to Junee ber of rights and to what you
:20:02. > :20:08.make caught a declaration of rights. There are trying to recreate an
:20:08. > :20:15.Imperial presidency. They want to introduce certain courses which
:20:15. > :20:21.will undermine the judiciary. There are 200 amendments that they have
:20:21. > :20:26.attempted to make that have all been already agreed on it draft
:20:27. > :20:30.constitution. There is a deadlock. Is it worth delaying these
:20:30. > :20:38.elections that you say Zimbabwe needs because of disagreement or
:20:38. > :20:43.inability to put the new draft constitution to a referendum?
:20:43. > :20:46.worth delaying the elections because it is no point rushing to
:20:46. > :20:53.an election which will create another political deadlock that
:20:53. > :20:57.will be with us for a long time. It is better to delay the election by
:20:57. > :21:02.five months into the elections properly. Have the proper
:21:02. > :21:06.constitution which will guarantee our liberties and curtail executive
:21:06. > :21:14.power properly in a way that protects the citizens. An election
:21:14. > :21:21.which will insure the electoral playing field is even and fear.
:21:21. > :21:26.of your citizens who will run as a constitutional assembly says even
:21:26. > :21:30.if they were a new constitution agreed, there is no basis for
:21:30. > :21:38.supporting the document that has been decided by the politicians,
:21:38. > :21:47.including you, Welshman Ncube. Where do the people figure in this?
:21:47. > :21:56.He is entitled to his opinion. It is not just to us. He represents a
:21:56. > :22:00.wide body of opinion. The three political parties in the government
:22:00. > :22:08.represents a wider body of political opinion than anything and
:22:08. > :22:14.civil society. The point I want to make is the constitution has to
:22:14. > :22:18.have political leadership. There was no constitution anywhere in the
:22:18. > :22:23.world that was made by civil society without political
:22:23. > :22:29.structures. I want to ask you something very important. Let us
:22:29. > :22:34.assume that elections happen and to overcome these problems, one Major-
:22:34. > :22:38.General was quoted in all Africa magazine and 2012 saying the army
:22:38. > :22:43.will not let the Movement for Democratic Change takeover power if
:22:43. > :22:47.it wins the election because it does not represent the ideology of
:22:47. > :22:55.liberation struggle. Whatever happens, you have opposition from
:22:55. > :23:03.the Army? What happens with that? The higher levels of the military
:23:03. > :23:07.have made statements like that. It is also true that the rank and file
:23:07. > :23:17.of the military in Zimbabwe does not necessarily come from that
:23:17. > :23:20.
:23:20. > :23:25.school of thought. What is raised the issues to say there is
:23:25. > :23:32.no point having an election unless the road map to the election
:23:32. > :23:37.includes guarantees and undertakings from the military.
:23:37. > :23:40.Undertakings that the military will accept the verdict of the people.
:23:40. > :23:45.There must accept in the advance of the election that the sovereignty
:23:45. > :23:55.lies and the people not the military. Morgan Tsvangirai says he
:23:55. > :23:58.
:23:58. > :24:03.will not contest elections if Zanu- PF sets a President? Would you?
:24:03. > :24:10.cannot determine for other parties who the candidates are. It is up to