:00:02. > :00:12.statements at the party conference in Brighton.
:00:12. > :00:12.
:00:12. > :00:15.Those are the main stories. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Kurds in Iraq
:00:15. > :00:18.are growing restless and impatient over the violence and open
:00:18. > :00:21.political rivalries in Baghdad between Shias and Sunnis. Iraq's
:00:21. > :00:24.autonomous Kurdish region of four million is a haven of relative
:00:24. > :00:31.stability and prosperity and what's more has its own oil riches to
:00:31. > :00:36.exploit. I speak to Ashti Hawrami. For the last six years, he's been
:00:36. > :00:39.minister for natural resources in Kurdistan's regional government.
:00:39. > :00:42.Why are Kurds upsetting the central government by increasingly seizing
:00:42. > :00:52.control of their oil resources and exports? Do they have plans to
:00:52. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:19.break away? Mr Ashti Hawrami, welcome to
:01:19. > :01:23.HARDtalk. Thank you. You're the minister for
:01:23. > :01:26.natural resources and oil. These things are at the very heart of the
:01:26. > :01:30.tensions between your Kurdish reason will -- regional government
:01:30. > :01:36.in Kurdistan and the federal government in Baghdad. In it is
:01:36. > :01:40.part of the problem, it's not the only one. Fundamentally, it's a
:01:40. > :01:45.constitutional issue. You are the minister for oil and gas. Let's
:01:45. > :01:49.stick with the oil for the moment. It's part of the problem, you say -
:01:49. > :01:56.how do you define the problem? all about control and
:01:56. > :01:59.centralisation versus decentralisation. We are exercising
:02:00. > :02:07.our rights according to the constitution. The federal
:02:07. > :02:11.constitution, as you know, has been the subject of a disagreement. You
:02:11. > :02:20.haven't really sorted all the outstanding differences out. As
:02:20. > :02:25.things stand, there are continuing. Reserves in Kurdistan in northern
:02:25. > :02:32.Iraq are reckoned to be about 45 billion barrels. Is it your belief
:02:32. > :02:42.that you should have control of your oil production and export?
:02:42. > :02:48.First of all, this 45 billion, which has an estimate, six years
:02:48. > :02:52.ago, there was not even one single barrel. It didn't exist. We have
:02:52. > :02:57.created good activity. We have achieved this result for all of
:02:57. > :03:01.Iraq. Controlling the resource and managing it is one thing, the
:03:01. > :03:07.ownership is another thing. Under the constitution, the ownership of
:03:07. > :03:17.the oil, when it becomes dollars, if you like, not only belongs to
:03:17. > :03:23.
:03:23. > :03:28.the Iraqi people - (INAUDIBLE).... I should just say, your maximum
:03:28. > :03:31.production is something like 250,000 barrels per day. He has
:03:31. > :03:37.reduced your production because of a dispute with the government in
:03:37. > :03:42.Baghdad. Precisely about who should cut deals, basically, with foreign
:03:42. > :03:45.oil companies in the Kurdish regional area. You say it's your
:03:45. > :03:54.responsibility, or it's your right, and Baghdad says "know it's not,
:03:54. > :03:59.it's ours". We have 50 companies working in the region, from 23
:03:59. > :04:05.countries internationally. They have been attracted to invest more
:04:05. > :04:08.than $10 billion into Kurdistan. What we are claiming seems to be
:04:09. > :04:13.believed by 50 companies, they are coming and investing, believing in
:04:13. > :04:18.the bright future. Is that the case? I'll give you one example,
:04:18. > :04:21.Exxon Mobile in 2011, you struck a deal giving them exploration in
:04:21. > :04:24.Kurdistan. They have kept very quiet because they have a huge
:04:25. > :04:30.interest in southern Iraq where they operate also. They have not
:04:30. > :04:35.said very much. You know that the government in Baghdad was furious.
:04:35. > :04:39.The Deputy Prime Minister was reported all over the press as
:04:39. > :04:45.boiling with anger when he struck your own deal with Exxon Mobile.
:04:45. > :04:51.shouldn't be. This is a service for Iraq. For Iraq or for yourself?
:04:51. > :04:55.or Iraq. It was good for Kurdistan and good for all of Iraq, actually.
:04:55. > :05:02.Is that the case? How is it? You have got 22 hours' worth of
:05:02. > :05:06.electricity per day. The rest of Iraq has four hours on average. It
:05:06. > :05:11.sounds like, perhaps, you are doing much, much better. We are doing
:05:11. > :05:17.better because we are sticking to Investment policies that work.
:05:17. > :05:21.Unfortunately, our colleagues in Baghdad are following outdated
:05:21. > :05:26.policies which do not attract investment. For example,
:05:26. > :05:30.electricity management - when I arrived we had two hours of
:05:30. > :05:34.electricity and everyone else had 3-4. We have arrived at 22 hours
:05:34. > :05:39.now by investing about $1 billion of government support into the
:05:39. > :05:45.private sector. We have fundamentally solved the problem.
:05:45. > :05:55.We now export some electricity to neighbouring provinces. Baghdad,
:05:55. > :05:55.
:05:55. > :05:58.according to the statistics we hear about, they have $37 billion only
:05:58. > :06:03.three -6 hours of electricity. The question is - why is there this
:06:03. > :06:06.gap? It's not our fault that Iraq does it have the electricity.
:06:06. > :06:12.fact of the matter is - sticking with the Foreign oil companies -
:06:12. > :06:16.are you not giving them better deals than are offered in the rest
:06:16. > :06:19.of Iraq? I will tell you what a prominent analyst says - he says
:06:19. > :06:23.that the production-sharing contract conditions in Kurdistan
:06:23. > :06:26.are more generous to the company's them the contracts available from
:06:26. > :06:32.the federal government in Baghdad. It sounds like you're trying to
:06:32. > :06:42.beat the rest of Iraq. Not at all. Saying "come to us, we will give
:06:42. > :06:45.
:06:45. > :06:47.you a better deal."... First of all, in the south we saw a giant
:06:47. > :06:53.oilfields being discovered and they had been exploited for years in the
:06:53. > :06:59.past. They are proven. There is no ambiguity about how much oil we can
:06:59. > :07:08.get. We have invested in better technology and we are at extracting
:07:08. > :07:12.more.... By contrast, in Kurdistan, it was not proven we had a drop of
:07:12. > :07:17.oil. It took about seven years before people struck oil for export.
:07:17. > :07:21.In the south, for example, as you mentioned, one month later he has a
:07:22. > :07:28.cash flow on his investment. The value of money is different from
:07:28. > :07:31.the one we are investing in in Kurdistan. I am one discussing the
:07:32. > :07:41.politics. You know the government in Baghdad is extremely angry. Rory
:07:42. > :07:45.
:07:45. > :07:55.are now -- the President complained to ObamaCare earlier this year....
:07:55. > :08:00.
:08:00. > :08:06.-- a President Obama.... How you see it is not how the Americans see
:08:06. > :08:16.it. That's how you see it... It's the opinion of the American
:08:16. > :08:19.
:08:19. > :08:22.Administration, Ex on Mobile, that kind of thing. -- Exxon Mobile....
:08:22. > :08:26.These are the large companies of the United States working in
:08:26. > :08:30.Kurdistan. But it comes with a health warning. What I'm saying is
:08:30. > :08:33.your perspective is not one that is shared. It is not shared by the
:08:33. > :08:39.government in Baghdad, that you have the right to do what you were
:08:39. > :08:43.doing, striking of these contracts with these companies. Also, a big
:08:43. > :08:47.support of Iraq, like the United States - that is what the State
:08:47. > :08:54.Department is saying. That is different to what we are hearing
:08:54. > :08:58.behind the scenes. So what they say to you "carry on". The constitution
:08:58. > :09:02.is on our side, that is number one. Every side has a number of lawyers
:09:02. > :09:07.to look at the constitution of Iraq and satisfy their clients to say
:09:07. > :09:12.that it is safe to invest there. they are telling you one thing
:09:12. > :09:17.behind Baghdad's back. I am not saying exactly that. The State
:09:17. > :09:21.Department can say what they're like. Importantly, they are not
:09:21. > :09:27.deterring any single investor. That's what's important. Secondly,
:09:27. > :09:34.I will quiddity very nicely - if I have a million barrels of oil in
:09:34. > :09:38.two years' time, Iraq needs it. At the end of the day we will win the
:09:38. > :09:42.money. You think you have the right and the Kurdistan regional
:09:42. > :09:46.government to control your exports? We have every right to do that with
:09:46. > :09:50.oil and gas, as long as we do what transparently, according to the
:09:50. > :09:54.constitution, and the revenue does for all people. You are building
:09:54. > :10:02.this new pipeline, because there has been the existing one from the
:10:02. > :10:05.time of Sudan Hussein -- Saddam Hussein, in Turkey - you would like
:10:05. > :10:09.to build a new one going into Turkey. You should be able to
:10:10. > :10:16.export may be a million barrels per day into Turkey. Correct? Putin
:10:16. > :10:20.Turkey signed that deal with? Your regional government, or Baghdad? --
:10:20. > :10:23.who did. If the private sector initiative on both sides of the
:10:23. > :10:27.border. That kind of thing - a pipeline going from one country to
:10:27. > :10:34.another, you would think it would require a deal between sovereign
:10:34. > :10:41.states? Not necessarily, as long as the revenue is counted - we should
:10:41. > :10:45.not have... It's just a private deal? The government of Iraq has a
:10:45. > :10:49.right to ask where the money is. What has Baghdad said to you about
:10:50. > :10:53.this pipeline? No nothing has been discussed. They didn't sign?
:10:53. > :10:57.haven't signed either. At the moment it's just a proposal on a
:10:57. > :11:05.pipeline - it's on the agenda. know what I'm getting at - the
:11:05. > :11:07.undercurrent in his conversation we are having is that - how far does
:11:07. > :11:14.the could stay and regional governments seek its oil and gas
:11:15. > :11:18.wealth as an enabling factor to it becoming independent -- Kurdistan.
:11:18. > :11:24.We don't want to get back into the cage where everything is controlled
:11:24. > :11:31.by Baghdad, like we had for 50 years. Out revenue being used by
:11:31. > :11:34.ink bombs and bombing people. happened under Saddam Hussein. Are
:11:34. > :11:38.you saying that could happen under this government? If you don't have
:11:38. > :11:40.checks and balances... Are you seriously saying that this
:11:40. > :11:45.government might carry out something like the terrible
:11:45. > :11:49.massacre where the Iraqi... I am not saying that, I'm saying that
:11:49. > :11:59.the Iraqi people - the capability is there because the democracy is
:11:59. > :12:03.not matured yet. We are quite right to be cautious, to be worried about
:12:03. > :12:07.what we have witnessed in the past and to be very careful of how we
:12:07. > :12:12.move forward into the future. What is wrong with implementing the
:12:12. > :12:17.constitution which united Iraq? The constitution of Iraq had Kurdistan
:12:17. > :12:22.sitting outside of Iraq. We would get half of our revenue from the
:12:22. > :12:26.United Nations in the food for oil programme. Now we are part of the
:12:26. > :12:30.constitution - that is our certificate. I'll put it the other
:12:30. > :12:34.way - you have been autonomous since 1991, you have your own armed
:12:34. > :12:39.forces. You have relative peace and prosperity. You are a haven of
:12:39. > :12:48.stability when you look at Iraq. Why wouldn't you want to seek
:12:48. > :12:52.independence? First of all, I would say that it is in our blood to one
:12:52. > :12:57.day want nationhood. It's enshrined in the constitution of Iraq as our
:12:57. > :13:03.right. Are we actually working towards independence? The answer is
:13:03. > :13:08.No. Really, is that the case? Absolutely. It's not a policy of my
:13:08. > :13:12.government to go for independence. Is that the case? The President of
:13:12. > :13:15.the Kurdistan regional government said on Al-Jazeera television - he
:13:16. > :13:22.talked about the fact that Iraq, in his words, is moving towards a
:13:22. > :13:24.catastrophe. He talked about a dictatorship, referring to the
:13:24. > :13:27.current government. He said he would put a referendum to the
:13:27. > :13:32.Kurdish people that they would never accept a return to
:13:32. > :13:38.dictatorship. I would be the same answer. What he said as if we are
:13:38. > :13:42.moving towards dictatorship, we have no choice but to come back to
:13:42. > :13:52.the people and ask them for a verdict. So, it wasn't just a
:13:52. > :13:53.
:13:53. > :13:57.sensible idea of mine when I said... What I'm trying to say is that Iraq
:13:57. > :14:00.has its own constitution and we can exist peacefully, no Kurd would
:14:00. > :14:10.like to be independent, because we are better off in a democratic,
:14:10. > :14:10.
:14:10. > :14:15.wealthy Iraq. The Orwell we have is a lot of oil, -- oil. We will get
:14:15. > :14:19.more by sharing with Iraq. If I start with what we have an Baghdad
:14:19. > :14:23.doesn't give me my share, then the constitution will be negated. When
:14:23. > :14:28.you have the constitution negated upon, you are in your right to
:14:28. > :14:35.search for an alternative.... Iraq could produce as much as 12
:14:35. > :14:45.million barrels per day, which is more than Saudi Arabia. Sticking
:14:45. > :14:46.
:14:46. > :14:56.with Rory on a -- the President... We know he has had a lot of issues
:14:56. > :15:06.
:15:06. > :15:09.He is his own Minister of Defence and Interior Minister. Do you feel
:15:09. > :15:15.that in the capital of Kurdistan that you are feeling signs of a
:15:15. > :15:22.dictatorship and you are thinking, what can we do about this? My job
:15:22. > :15:32.is a technocrat, I look at the oil. And you're part of the government.
:15:32. > :15:32.
:15:32. > :15:39.I have seen that on the oil side. It applies to the other sectors,
:15:39. > :15:48.where it is security or defence. I put it to you, Iraq is poor at the
:15:48. > :15:54.moment. We don't have services. Why do I need to go by at sixteens
:15:54. > :15:59.before I build my electricity network? Think about that. Iraq
:15:59. > :16:02.needs to move to reconstruction first. You say you don't want to
:16:02. > :16:07.speak politically, but it is clear President is on the record as being
:16:07. > :16:12.openly hostile. He tried to help bring about a third of no
:16:12. > :16:21.confidence in the Iraqi Parliament to try and bring him down. The
:16:21. > :16:25.President of the United Iraq also reckoned there. It is beginning to
:16:25. > :16:31.look as if the Kurds in Iraq are destabilising the Federal
:16:31. > :16:36.Government in Baghdad. Quite opposite. If it was not for the
:16:36. > :16:40.role of those two, you would probably have a civil war in Iraq.
:16:40. > :16:47.We have always been there as a separating presence between the
:16:47. > :16:50.Iraqi people. If you ask any of our friends, the role of Kurds in
:16:50. > :16:56.Baghdad is trying to bring the parties together to make it
:16:56. > :17:03.function. Yes, we had difficulties and nobody can hide, but at the end
:17:03. > :17:10.of the day, Iraq has some democratic instruments remaining.
:17:10. > :17:17.At the elections, people can choose again. I just came back from
:17:17. > :17:23.Baghdad after oil negotiations. It seemed to be a very positive
:17:23. > :17:26.atmosphere. My colleagues are supportive and doing something
:17:26. > :17:31.together, regardless of the political stand-off at. You said a
:17:31. > :17:35.moment ago that Kurds can always dream about what can it be referred
:17:35. > :17:39.to as a greater Kurdistan. We sought at the beginning of last
:17:39. > :17:44.century that there was a move to some help build a Kurdistan there
:17:44. > :17:52.would you die the Kurdish people of Iran, Syria, Iraq and Turkey. --
:17:52. > :17:58.United. You, out of these four countries, are in the strongest
:17:58. > :18:05.position. You have enjoyed relative be done -- freedom over the past
:18:05. > :18:14.two decades. Again I can relate not bouncer that exactly the way you
:18:14. > :18:19.put it. What I can say, looking at Iraqi Kurdistan, it is a good model
:18:20. > :18:25.for other countries to look out. There's nothing wrong with people
:18:25. > :18:31.in neighbouring countries to aspire to have the same rights as we have.
:18:31. > :18:35.Have we we can implement them. People thinking of politically co-
:18:35. > :18:43.existing within their own borders, but demanding equal rights. There
:18:43. > :18:50.is nothing wrong with that. reason I mention this is that Iraq
:18:50. > :18:53.borders Syria, there are about one million Kurds in Syria, and we know
:18:53. > :19:02.that the President has gone on the record and said there are training
:19:02. > :19:04.camps inside Iraqi Kurdistan for Syrian Kurds to have fled and the
:19:04. > :19:10.id is that perhaps if the time is right they would go from these
:19:10. > :19:14.training camps into Syria to help in the fight against Bashar al-
:19:14. > :19:23.Assad, but also to assert themselves. I heard that. It was
:19:23. > :19:27.not quite that. He did say that. What he actually said was the role
:19:27. > :19:32.was to fall. One was to get the Kurds not to fight each other, not
:19:32. > :19:37.to have enough fighting within the Kurdish areas. Secondly, to keep
:19:37. > :19:41.them away from any fighting against any other groups, which is also
:19:41. > :19:48.famed for considering what has happened in Syria. The Kurdish area
:19:49. > :19:53.is still relatively unharmed because the Kurds conformed. This
:19:53. > :19:57.was on Al Jazeera TV... These people are being trained to defend
:19:57. > :20:04.themselves in the event of attack, not to go attack anybody else.
:20:04. > :20:08.has confirmed, on a Al Jazeera TV, but his administration has been
:20:08. > :20:12.chaining it the Kurdish Syrian fighters on its territory and that
:20:12. > :20:20.a good number of young Syrian Kurds could be deployed. He has said that.
:20:20. > :20:24.He's On the Record as saying that. They are being training camps. They
:20:24. > :20:31.could go into fighting. Not for fighting. Were Iraqi Kurds going to
:20:31. > :20:37.help them fighting? No. That is out of the question as the conflict
:20:37. > :20:43.becomes wider, Kurdistan has not taken any decision whatsoever to
:20:43. > :20:47.actually go into Syria and defend anybody. If the situation changed
:20:47. > :20:53.and if the national community comes at last Kurdistan how things can
:20:53. > :20:57.develop, that is a different matter. You have got one Kurdish Syrian
:20:57. > :21:03.leader saying, we are able to govern ourselves, we have the power
:21:03. > :21:08.for it. That is Syria. You're talking about how you have good
:21:08. > :21:11.ties with Turkey, but if you look at the state a 20 million Kurds -
:21:11. > :21:16.there are many documented reports that say they have been
:21:16. > :21:21.discriminated at best or persecuted at worst - and yet here is the
:21:21. > :21:27.turkey and all the Kurds in Turkey St, we want to use our own language
:21:27. > :21:33.and assert ourselves. How do you square that? If you look about two
:21:33. > :21:40.or three years ago, the situation was very tough -- tents. Nowra
:21:40. > :21:46.relationship is fantastic. They are number one trade partner. You also
:21:46. > :21:49.to allow them at the militants, the Turkish Kurdish militants, to
:21:50. > :21:54.operate from the mountainous region between the two countries. We are
:21:54. > :22:00.not allowing them by choice. don't move against them.
:22:00. > :22:06.situation is recognised now. This conflict is still there. It is a
:22:06. > :22:14.political solution required to be found. This government in Turkey
:22:14. > :22:22.has done fantastic there. I think we should credit them. There has
:22:22. > :22:26.been conflicts between the two groups over the past ten years.
:22:26. > :22:29.not saying the job is finished. don't feel torn between your
:22:29. > :22:38.Kurdish brothers and sisters in Turkey are trying to also maintain
:22:38. > :22:43.good ties with the Government? do not believe any situation can be
:22:43. > :22:47.solved with conflict. It needs to be done by dialogue. When you look
:22:47. > :22:52.at the shake-up in the Middle East going on, people are saying this,
:22:52. > :22:56.but I'll give you one person who has gone on record as saying this,
:22:56. > :23:00.a professor of Middle Eastern Studies who says, although it is
:23:00. > :23:04.too early to talk about the emergence of a Greater Kurdistan,
:23:04. > :23:09.and imagined community resonates deeply across Turkey, Syria, Iraq
:23:09. > :23:16.and Iran. Will we see him independent Greater Kurdistan in
:23:16. > :23:20.your lifetime? I hope so, but that is not the objective at the moment.
:23:20. > :23:30.There is nothing wrong to have a greater Kurdistan, whether it is
:23:30. > :23:33.
:23:33. > :23:36.part of this country or that country. If you look at the map of
:23:36. > :23:45.Europe, even Iraqi Kurdistan is bigger than half of the countries.
:23:45. > :23:50.There is nothing wrong with that. We are priding ourselves on moving
:23:50. > :23:54.towards independence. We are working as part of a bigger the
:23:54. > :24:00.Republic. The Republic of Iraq is a constitution. We love the