:00:04. > :00:11.names before hand. Most of the victims were students.
:00:11. > :00:19.Kenya is a country with big ambitions to be East Africa's
:00:19. > :00:24.powerhouse economy, and, as is dominant regional player. And yet
:00:24. > :00:29.seated problems. Its political culture is disfigured by violence
:00:29. > :00:32.and tribalism, corruption is ingrained and poverty deep-rooted.
:00:32. > :00:37.Today my guest is deputy prime minister and presidential candidate
:00:37. > :00:47.Musalia Mudavadi. Which version of Kenya will prevail as the country
:00:47. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:09.prepares for national elections Musalia Mudavadi, welcome to
:01:10. > :01:12.HARDtalk. Thank you very much. must begin with events in Somalia
:01:12. > :01:22.because they have been major developments in the last few days
:01:22. > :01:29.involving Kenyan troops, amphibious people are entirely behind this
:01:29. > :01:36.major commitment Kenya is making in Somalia? They are, absolutely. They
:01:36. > :01:42.are fully behind the Kenyan defence unstable Somalia for a very long
:01:42. > :01:52.time. What has been happening in the region is that we have been
:01:52. > :02:02.starting to see repercussions in movemen
:02:02. > :02:17.
:02:17. > :02:20.militant Islamist force? Yes. They Kenya. D not think that there is a
:02:20. > :02:24.greater risk Al-Shabab will try to bring the violence to Kenyans
:02:24. > :02:31.that e is that risk but this is a situation
:02:31. > :02:38.we do not want terrorists to become the dominant force and run affairs
:02:38. > :02:42.in the region. We have seen grenade attacks on churches and other
:02:42. > :02:50.public places, an attack on a Sunday school which left at least
:02:50. > :02:55.one child dead. I am wondering if this violence spreads inside your
:02:55. > :03:01.country, will people ask whether it was wise for the government to
:03:01. > :03:09.commit to such a major intervention beyond the border? I think we have
:03:09. > :03:14.to appreciate that Kenya is not there alone. Kinnear is there with
:03:14. > :03:21.other African Union troops. The international community is behind
:03:21. > :03:31.this intervention. But now it seems Kenya's role is dominant. You
:03:31. > :03:31.
:03:31. > :03:36.probably remember the words of Colin Powell. He said, if you go in,
:03:36. > :03:44.there is this the last of the - you break it, you own it. If you now
:03:44. > :03:47.have thousands of troops inside Somalia, and you have killed
:03:47. > :03:57.civilians, you will now have to convince some mullions that Kenya
:03:57. > :04:01.is a force for good. That means the commitment could go on and on.
:04:01. > :04:06.But I would like to say that Kenya's intervention was very well
:04:06. > :04:13.measured. Kinnear has made a difference by being part of the
:04:13. > :04:16.Amazon troops. Since they came in, there has been significant success
:04:17. > :04:22.in dealing with Al-Shabab. If you look at what has happened in
:04:22. > :04:27.Somalia, they just went through an election, they have a new President.
:04:27. > :04:30.This was not possible previously. For them to be able to conduct an
:04:30. > :04:37.election were they now have a parliament that is beginning to
:04:37. > :04:41.function. But Al-Shabab has not gone away. It is likely they will
:04:41. > :04:46.mount an insurgency campaign now from the bush, rather than from the
:04:46. > :04:50.towns. That could actually be more damaging for your troops and
:04:50. > :05:00.civilians in the country. There is that risk but I think it would be
:05:00. > :05:10.worse if we were to lay back and let things go. Somalia has not
:05:10. > :05:13.
:05:13. > :05:23.received sufficient international attention. Just to be clear, as you
:05:23. > :05:26.
:05:26. > :05:34.look at Somalia today, Kenya's military and economic commitment is
:05:34. > :05:42.indefinite? It is. We would like the international community to play
:05:42. > :05:50.a more aggressive role. We have seen positive support through
:05:50. > :05:59.United Nations resolutions and Amazon troops. I believe that if we
:05:59. > :06:04.want to find a lasting solution, we should make sure that international
:06:04. > :06:08.attention remains focused on Somalia. A final thought about
:06:08. > :06:14.Somalia. I have talked about the danger that Al-Shabaab might try to
:06:14. > :06:17.bring violence to your own country and people. It is not just about
:06:17. > :06:21.their operatives trying to cross the border, it is also about
:06:21. > :06:26.tensions within Kenyan society itself. You have hundreds of
:06:26. > :06:31.thousands of Somali refugees who are now resident in your country.
:06:31. > :06:36.You also have a significant Muslim population, some of whom appear to
:06:36. > :06:41.be increasingly radicalised. They may become more so as a result of
:06:42. > :06:47.what they see your troops doing in Somalia. I hope we do not get to
:06:47. > :06:52.that extreme position. We have seen some unfortunate incidents, but let
:06:52. > :07:00.me say the Kenyan people are very resilient. By and la
:07:00. > :07:06.confidently say that the Muslims in Kenya are very clear that this is
:07:06. > :07:11.not about a religious battle. We have seen those attempts to tie it
:07:11. > :07:17.to a religious conflict. But Kenyon was once a very clear that this
:07:17. > :07:25.issue is not about religion. It is about terrorism. You must be aware
:07:25. > :07:34.of the tensions in cities like Mombasa. Probably the most active
:07:34. > :07:38.place for Islamist preachers in your country. We have always who
:07:38. > :07:48.say that "Che ha is gaining credence among the youth in the
:07:48. > :07:49.
:07:49. > :07:56.city." it would be very unfortunate. Our security agencies are very
:07:56. > :08:02.clear and firm making sure we do not get to that level. It should
:08:02. > :08:12.not be seen as a religious battles. I'm confident that ultimately, the
:08:12. > :08:14.
:08:14. > :08:18.region will prevail. Any attempts to try and try this on a religious
:08:18. > :08:25.basis have been met by a lot of restrained by Christians and
:08:25. > :08:29.Muslims. People outside your country might be more convinced
:08:29. > :08:35.that -- that reason will prevail would not that internal tensions
:08:35. > :08:40.are rising across Kenya, leaving aside the issue of Somalia and was
:08:40. > :08:46.on feeling inside your country. Generally, there is a feeling that
:08:46. > :08:51.over the last year, we have seen a significant rise in into communal
:08:52. > :09:00.tension and violence. Your government appears incapable of
:09:00. > :09:06.calming things down. That is not true. What has happened in Kenya is
:09:06. > :09:12.very significant from a positive angle. I'm not just saying that
:09:12. > :09:17.because I am a Kenyan. I want to point out that Kenya has
:09:17. > :09:21.successfully brought in a constitution. Kinnear is preparing
:09:21. > :09:26.for a general election. We had not seen these extreme national
:09:26. > :09:30.tensions. As we have. What about the fact mass graves have been
:09:30. > :09:37.discovered in villages have been destroyed and we have seen tribal
:09:37. > :09:41.disputes escalate into massacres? Those unfortunate incidents but
:09:41. > :09:46.they're not running across the entire country. Whatever happened
:09:46. > :09:52.was quickly quelled. We had villages destroyed, women and
:09:52. > :09:55.children murdered. We have had allegations that local politicians
:09:55. > :10:04.and police are they incited the violence or stood by and let it
:10:04. > :10:07.happen. Equally, the authorities were able to investigate. Some of
:10:07. > :10:12.the people who could have been behind this were -- are likely to
:10:12. > :10:21.face charges. Our intervention has been quite formidable and fairly
:10:21. > :10:27.tidy. Apart from what has happened, there were no other serious cases
:10:27. > :10:31.of conflict. Other incidences over the last few months, we have had
:10:31. > :10:35.senior politicians and members of the government it -- accused of
:10:35. > :10:42.inciting into communal violence. It seems there is a political culture
:10:42. > :10:46.at work in a country which allows politicians to indulge in this sort
:10:46. > :10:53.of tribal infighting. That is the culture that is being eliminated
:10:53. > :10:59.now. It is not being eliminated in due respect. A Human Rights Watch
:10:59. > :11:04.recent report said that for decades, Kenyan police have failed to
:11:04. > :11:09.investigate politicians implicated in such violence. Politicians are
:11:09. > :11:16.facing such charges today. there are many others indulging in
:11:16. > :11:20.the same activity. We have to go by the rule of law. Those who have
:11:20. > :11:25.been found with sufficient evidence have been taken to court. That
:11:25. > :11:34.includes government ministers. Colleagues of yours are prepared to
:11:34. > :11:40.indulge in this sort of tension, why is that? These are essentially
:11:40. > :11:44.people who do not have a serious agenda. I think when we have an
:11:44. > :11:52.independent director of Public Prosecutions charging them, it will
:11:52. > :11:56.be a deterrent against anyone else who wants to do the same thing. I
:11:56. > :12:01.think it is positive that a messages being sent to Kenya's
:12:01. > :12:05.political society, that they can't continue in the traditional way.
:12:05. > :12:09.What sort of message d think it sense that two of the most senior
:12:09. > :12:14.politicians in your country now face trial before the International
:12:14. > :12:21.Criminal Court in The Hague, facing serious charges of involvement in
:12:21. > :12:31.crimes against humanity? It is unfortunate. The issue of
:12:31. > :12:35.
:12:35. > :12:41.politicians in Kenya facing such a trial, there is national guilt. If
:12:41. > :12:47.we were to go back into be election process of 2007, there is a sense
:12:47. > :12:50.of national guilt. We went wrong as a nation. The International
:12:50. > :12:55.Criminal Court clearly believes that Kenya's own judicial system is
:12:55. > :13:01.not capable of delivering justice for what happened after that
:13:02. > :13:07.election. That was then. I can tell you now that under the new
:13:07. > :13:14.constitution, there is a major injure -- adjustment taking place.
:13:14. > :13:19.We have a new chief justice. Nine of the judges have not been able to
:13:19. > :13:27.go through the vetting process. We are seeing major reforms in Kenya's
:13:28. > :13:36.judiciary. I can tell you confidently that Kenya's judicial
:13:36. > :13:41.system is beginning to see a time for the better. I can tell you
:13:41. > :13:46.confidently that one of the senior politicians I am referring to
:13:46. > :13:51.facing these charges at The Hague now seems to command more than 20%
:13:51. > :13:59.support in polls looking forward to the presidential election. He
:13:59. > :14:02.seemed to get around 8%. What does it say that a man like him, facing
:14:02. > :14:09.very serious charges, seems to be significantly popular with the
:14:09. > :14:16.people of your country? This is the interesting thing about Kenya's
:14:16. > :14:25.political system and society. The popularity issue is something else.
:14:25. > :14:31.This will be determined by the voters. The Kenyans are very clear
:14:31. > :14:41.that we are not going to progress into a violent situation as we get
:14:41. > :14:43.
:14:43. > :14:46.to the election. The Kenyan people want the international community to
:14:46. > :14:56.appreciate the positive changes that have taken in the judicial
:14:56. > :15:07.
:15:07. > :15:10.He denies all the allegations he faces in the Hague was. You
:15:10. > :15:16.represent a political establishment the people no longer find credible.
:15:16. > :15:21.Do you agree with that? I do not agree. The Kenyan people have a
:15:21. > :15:31.chance, come March next year, to make the change that desire. You do
:15:31. > :15:35.not really represent change. It is difficult to see what you represent.
:15:35. > :15:41.You are a fee is credit of the current President. He's people who
:15:41. > :15:43.used to be your friends describe you as a free Leader whose
:15:44. > :15:49.credibility is non-existent and represents everything that is wrong
:15:49. > :15:53.with the economic life of the country. You are all scrapping for
:15:53. > :15:59.power without an ounce of ideological conviction between you.
:15:59. > :16:07.I am very different. I speak for myself. I do not speak for the
:16:07. > :16:12.other candidates. Kenya is at the brink of a major transition. We
:16:12. > :16:16.have a new constitution. We have a President who would not be on the
:16:16. > :16:22.ballot. Kenyans have an opportunity to make a choice. I offer myself
:16:22. > :16:28.forward to the people of Kenya. I am somebody who is not poor rising.
:16:28. > :16:33.I am a to implement the new constitution. I am confident that I
:16:33. > :16:38.will be elected on that basis. it is question of the potential
:16:38. > :16:48.election, there are many candidates with their names put forward. One
:16:48. > :16:49.
:16:49. > :16:53.of them is you. If it does politicians pull proceed with their
:16:53. > :16:57.trial at the Hague, would be wise for a different opera -- opposition
:16:58. > :17:06.candidates to come up with one key presidential candidate they could
:17:06. > :17:15.unite around and challenge? Do you believe that should happen. I think
:17:15. > :17:19.Kenyans... The basis of any coalition from the party that I
:17:19. > :17:29.represent, we are not coming together simply to defeat somebody
:17:29. > :17:30.
:17:30. > :17:38.else. We have to be clear first. If you are getting into a partnership
:17:38. > :17:48.with anybody, what do they think of the economy? What are their views
:17:48. > :17:58.on violence and other policies? That should be the basis. So no
:17:58. > :17:58.
:17:58. > :18:07.deals? No deals with any other potential candidates to pull you
:18:07. > :18:12.re- sources in your battle against the President? We are or competent.
:18:12. > :18:18.We would like everyone to have the opportunity. I am focused that I
:18:18. > :18:22.must win the hearts of the Kenyan people. The talk about the economy.
:18:22. > :18:27.Polling evidence tells me that when Kenyans were asked what the most
:18:27. > :18:34.important issues are that is facing the country, they put down
:18:34. > :18:40.employment. No. Today. Corruption. And the feeling that politics is
:18:40. > :18:45.corroded by corruption. Can you explain to me, as a member of the
:18:45. > :18:50.government in a long-standing MP, why the parliament has just voted
:18:50. > :18:57.through of a massive revamp of the parliament building itself which
:18:57. > :19:01.involved the spending, this is almost unbelievable, the spending
:19:01. > :19:07.of $300,000 of hi-tech new shares with computers onboard for every
:19:08. > :19:12.parliamentarian. 350 or so of these shares. It will cost a lot of money.
:19:12. > :19:20.A common to many Kenyans, politicians are simply feeding at
:19:20. > :19:28.the trough. I don't think that is exactly accurate. We have to look
:19:28. > :19:33.at it from a different perspective. The parliament has been expanded to
:19:33. > :19:43.accommodate more parliamentarians based on what is going to happen in
:19:43. > :19:44.
:19:44. > :19:50.the new constitution. These materials are local. I am sorry.
:19:50. > :19:55.You cannot tell me that local materials and up to chairs in the
:19:55. > :19:59.Upul Tharanga costing $300,000. One of your colleagues says, it is
:19:59. > :20:09.completely ridiculous that MPs would sit on seat by any standards
:20:09. > :20:17.could put up a small house for someone in Kenya. This is the
:20:17. > :20:27.Kenyan National Assembly. They have put it up. It may reflect a
:20:27. > :20:31.situation where a looks bad. It is bad. This is a country that
:20:31. > :20:35.actually is going through an enormous economic struggle and MPs
:20:35. > :20:43.of Fame's round the world for being the best paid in the entire world.
:20:43. > :20:48.Their overall package including expenses comes over $150,000 a year
:20:48. > :20:55.US. You as a minister gets more than that. It is unacceptable for
:20:55. > :21:00.most Kenyans the repetitions in your country behave. Politicians
:21:00. > :21:10.will not be a board determined this anymore. We have gone beyond that.
:21:10. > :21:11.
:21:11. > :21:16.We have reached a stage where Kenya and has a commission. It will
:21:16. > :21:20.harmonise all aspects of a packagers, the earnings of public
:21:20. > :21:26.officers. This includes Members of Parliament. The whole notion that
:21:26. > :21:34.Members of Parliament are setting up packages for themselves is gone.
:21:35. > :21:40.What we see, in this lady's bag rapport, is that Kenya's economy is
:21:40. > :21:45.underperforming in East Africa. If look across the region, Kenya has
:21:45. > :21:51.more import restrictions than many neighbouring countries. You have a
:21:51. > :21:55.growth of 5% but basic given the potential it should be higher. It
:21:55. > :22:01.should match the other fast-growing countries but you're not doing it.
:22:01. > :22:06.There is something wrong there. I do not think we have the highest
:22:06. > :22:10.import restrictions. Not the high as. But it is not free in the way
:22:10. > :22:15.the World Bank would like to see if. I think Kenya is the most liberal
:22:15. > :22:20.of the economies in the region. I can talk comfortably above this. I
:22:20. > :22:25.said as the Minister of Finance. And er in terms of opening up for
:22:25. > :22:30.trade and all aspects of import tariffs, Kenya is more liberal than
:22:30. > :22:34.other countries in the region. that is the case and USAir in Port
:22:34. > :22:39.-- confident, why are semi people worried that given the discovery of
:22:39. > :22:43.oil in Kenya and your president talking about the major
:22:43. > :22:52.breakthrough in the presents for the economy, why as any people
:22:52. > :23:02.worried that that resource bonus that you now have could be wasted?
:23:02. > :23:05.
:23:05. > :23:15.Those operas and us. -- are plasmas. We think it will be utilised
:23:15. > :23:15.
:23:15. > :23:19.positively for the Kenyan people. Countries like Norway who have good
:23:19. > :23:27.policies about the utilisation of the natural resources. And there
:23:27. > :23:34.are other countries that have not done so well. They tend to be wet
:23:34. > :23:43.corruption -- where corruption is not an epidemic. There is a
:23:43. > :23:48.positive aspect here. We were not strike this oil immediately. I can
:23:48. > :23:54.tell you very confidently that we ALP working on policy positions
:23:54. > :23:58.that will make sure any natural resources that are discovered in
:23:58. > :24:01.Kenya will be for the good of the country and were not just benefit a
:24:01. > :24:08.few people. This is something we are working on. The parliament is
:24:09. > :24:15.working to legislate some of these issues. With the VAT, we were said