:00:02. > :00:07.trial in the International Criminal Court in the Hague. One of them
:00:07. > :00:17.there, William Ruto, is here today. I Kenya's politicians failing their
:00:17. > :00:25.
:00:25. > :00:31.people? William Ruto, welcome to HARDtalk.
:00:31. > :00:37.I want to talk politics and I want to talk justice with you. Let us
:00:37. > :00:41.start with justice. You are scheduled to face trial at the
:00:42. > :00:48.International Criminal Court in the Hague in April of 2013. Do you
:00:48. > :00:58.intend to present yourself before the court? I have presented myself
:00:58. > :00:59.
:00:59. > :01:05.before. I have taken myself there when I was requested. I intend to
:01:05. > :01:11.present myself at any other time in the future. So if, as is currently
:01:11. > :01:20.planned, there is a trial and you are put on trial in 2013, you will
:01:20. > :01:25.be there? I did not say that. I will be there. I just think
:01:25. > :01:33.everybody wants to know. There is enormous scrutiny on this case. You
:01:33. > :01:37.know that people around the world are watching. It 10 is another test
:01:37. > :01:44.case for international justice. It is a time when you are running for
:01:44. > :01:53.the presidency of Kenya next year. At a time when you are absolutely
:01:53. > :02:01.committed to go to the ICC in April, one month after the election.
:02:01. > :02:09.In that case, what is your message to the Kenyan people? If you
:02:09. > :02:13.succeed in winning the presidency, almost the first thing you will do
:02:13. > :02:21.is absent herself from the country, and judging the way the ICC works,
:02:21. > :02:28.it is very unlikely you would be given bail. In effect, you would be
:02:28. > :02:32.an absent president on trial in a foreign country. I am surprised
:02:32. > :02:42.that you are already aware that I will not be given bail. Really
:02:42. > :02:43.
:02:43. > :02:48.surprised. But the way the ICC has worked in the past, usually
:02:48. > :02:58.offenders are not. To the best of my knowledge, and on the advice of
:02:58. > :03:02.
:03:02. > :03:10.my a Chinese, we have not breached any of the conditions attached to
:03:10. > :03:16.the trial. -- my attorney's. We have done the best we could to keep
:03:16. > :03:24.the limits that were signed to us. That is why are we are conducting
:03:24. > :03:29.this case. I do not see any of the circumstances that were attached to
:03:29. > :03:37.it our trial changing. Therefore, there will be absolutely no reason
:03:38. > :03:43.for any body to change the parameters of the way the case is
:03:43. > :03:51.being conducted. To the best of my knowledge, I will appear in the
:03:51. > :03:56.heyday, as has happened in the past, the case will proceed. We will be
:03:56. > :04:02.required, once in a while, to be personally presented in court.
:04:02. > :04:06.Which we will. In the rest of the time, we will conduct our business.
:04:06. > :04:14.See you think it is practical and feasible for you to be both
:04:14. > :04:22.President of Kenya, if you succeed in the campaign, and a defendant at
:04:22. > :04:32.the ICC? Taking into account that both the ICC process and the
:04:32. > :04:35.
:04:35. > :04:40.constitution of Kenya hold me as a man who is innocent, I do not find
:04:40. > :04:49.any difficulty in being President of Kenya as the case is running
:04:49. > :04:55.against me. Do you think the Kenyan people will want a leader who, as I
:04:55. > :05:00.have be looking at the documents before the ICC now, a leader who,
:05:00. > :05:05.in your case, faces charges of being a co-conspirator in crimes
:05:05. > :05:11.against humanity, is alleged to have been a key planner of a
:05:11. > :05:14.campaign of violence in your home territory, who is alleged to have
:05:14. > :05:21.supervised the purchase and distribution of weapons, given
:05:21. > :05:25.instruction on homes to be targeted and people to be displaced? Is that
:05:25. > :05:33.the sort of man, facing those sorts of charges, that should be seeking
:05:33. > :05:39.the highest office in Kenya? That is the message that my competitors
:05:39. > :05:46.would want. To persuade the Kenyan electorate to not support me. But
:05:46. > :05:51.if the people of Kenya, despite that campaign, which the people of
:05:51. > :05:55.Kenyan no, because they know me, they know what I'll do. They know
:05:55. > :06:04.the charges that have been filed against me. They can make their
:06:04. > :06:09.choice. Whether, on the basis of those charges, they can go ahead
:06:09. > :06:15.and support me or not. If they choose to vote for me, it shows
:06:15. > :06:22.very clearly that they have an idea as to how we ended up with this
:06:22. > :06:28.kind of charges. But the people cannot know if you are innocent or
:06:29. > :06:35.guilty. There is a very basic principle that a man is presumed
:06:35. > :06:41.innocent until proven guilty. But the court has not yet heard the
:06:41. > :06:51.evidence. Given the gravity of the charges, and the nature of the
:06:51. > :06:53.
:06:53. > :07:03.evidence against two that we have seen from a variety of sources, we
:07:03. > :07:03.
:07:03. > :07:08.know that they are very serious. On that basis, do you really think it
:07:08. > :07:18.is for the best for Kenya for you to pursue the presidency?
:07:18. > :07:22.
:07:22. > :07:28.Absolutely. To help this country. A gang of people can conspire in a
:07:28. > :07:38.corner. We have spoken about Kofi Annan. Kofi Annan has nothing
:07:38. > :07:38.
:07:38. > :07:47.against me. Those reports have been discredited. But I pointed to
:07:47. > :07:53.evidence. I have got a report that name due with a very specific
:07:53. > :07:58.allegations and accuses you of a key role in the killing of hundreds
:07:58. > :08:03.and the displacement of thousands of people in your home territory.
:08:03. > :08:08.Did to know there are two Kenyan human rights report by the same
:08:08. > :08:11.commission, saying different things? Are you aware? I am aware
:08:11. > :08:16.that you will challenge the allegations that have been put
:08:16. > :08:21.before you. But I am also aware that lots of witnesses have been
:08:21. > :08:29.interviewed. The evidence against you is not just based on a couple
:08:29. > :08:34.of voices. It is based on a whole number. Are you also aware that all
:08:34. > :08:43.those witnesses, especially the key witnesses, have also confessed that
:08:43. > :08:48.they are criminals? Are you also aware? Do you want to believe a
:08:48. > :08:54.person who says that they are a criminal? That I am accusing
:08:54. > :09:01.William Ruto of this and this and this? I know that you have
:09:01. > :09:05.challenged the credibility and ferocity of the witnesses who are
:09:05. > :09:13.key to the case against two. But I also know there are serious
:09:13. > :09:23.allegations that your supporters have intimidated and tried to
:09:23. > :09:27.discredit witnesses. They have even conspired, and this is a quote from
:09:27. > :09:37.the minutes of a meeting of the so- called friends of Honourable
:09:37. > :09:39.
:09:39. > :09:49.William Ruto, to move against witnesses. You should not give any
:09:49. > :09:58.justice to this interview. You should have let me bring quotes to
:09:58. > :10:02.counter what you are saying. This is not about the case at the ICC.
:10:03. > :10:11.It is about how your own friends and supporters have responded to
:10:11. > :10:19.the fact. I have no friends like these. They do not exist. It is a
:10:19. > :10:29.publication of your sauce. You should not try and give credibility
:10:29. > :10:30.
:10:30. > :10:34.to a sauce that is not unverified. These minutes are quite clear. They
:10:34. > :10:43.say that people should be presented with limited options. They should
:10:43. > :10:53.be given a handsome cash incentive or more or punitive measures.
:10:53. > :10:58.
:10:58. > :11:03.is garbage. It is garbage from the sewer. This organisation... Is a
:11:03. > :11:10.figment of an evil opposition. to sit before me now, the idea, and
:11:10. > :11:18.again it comes with details, the idea that you incited your people
:11:18. > :11:25.to act of violence against the supposedly enemy in your midst is
:11:25. > :11:35.something that you flat out, categorically deny? Let me tell you.
:11:35. > :11:35.
:11:35. > :11:43.Some of the estates, let me tell you, whatever is being said about
:11:43. > :11:50.planning about the buying of guns, about other allegations, absolute
:11:50. > :11:56.fantasy. It did not happen. Including facts that are so obvious
:11:56. > :11:58.that even on dates when I was allegedly supposed to be
:11:58. > :12:08.distributing guns in my house, there is documentary evidence as to
:12:08. > :12:11.
:12:11. > :12:15.where I was. Miles and kilometres from my house. In a public place.
:12:15. > :12:22.Captured by the Kenyan free media. What further evidence could you
:12:22. > :12:27.need? It is not just do who faces trial at the ICC. There are three
:12:27. > :12:35.other senior Kenyan figures. One of them, who like you is running for
:12:35. > :12:39.Do you think that it is likely before the March election and
:12:39. > :12:44.before the ICC trial that you and Carew Kenyatta can come to some
:12:44. > :12:50.sort of understanding for political deal that only one of you will only
:12:50. > :12:55.go forward to actually fight this presidential election? Why would we
:12:55. > :12:58.do that? They are Kenyans that believe you would do it because you
:12:58. > :13:02.will reach an understanding that should one of you become President
:13:02. > :13:06.the other will take a very senior position, perhaps vice president,
:13:06. > :13:11.and the understanding will be that both of you will operate on the
:13:11. > :13:16.understanding that you will use the amenity powers that will come with
:13:16. > :13:23.the presidency to insure that the ICC trial never happens. We have
:13:23. > :13:28.absolutely no intention of interfering with the ICC process.
:13:28. > :13:36.Absolutely none. My quest for the presidency of Kenya has nothing to
:13:36. > :13:44.do with the ICC process. I was a candidate at the nomination stage
:13:44. > :13:51.in 2007. Cantata was a candidate in 2002. There was no ICC. There was
:13:51. > :13:57.no ICC when I was a candidate for the podium nominations in 2007.
:13:57. > :14:01.Therefore I am running this time around... Nobody should ever think
:14:01. > :14:05.that we are trying to run for President mealy because we are
:14:05. > :14:11.suspects. Right? We are running because we believe we are leaders
:14:11. > :14:16.and we have a contribution to make to this country.And in Kenya as a
:14:16. > :14:20.very successful businessman. I think it is fair to say that you
:14:20. > :14:25.have never allowed your political career to stand in the way of
:14:25. > :14:35.making money. Would you say that is there? That is a very wrong
:14:35. > :14:37.
:14:37. > :14:43.statement. -- fair. First despite my humble background I have worked
:14:43. > :14:49.hard. I work very hard. Everybody appreciates in this country that
:14:49. > :14:53.Willian Ruto works very hard. suppose what I'm getting at is
:14:53. > :14:57.whether politics in this country actually makes it easier to make
:14:57. > :15:01.money. In many countries politicians are genuinely full-time
:15:01. > :15:06.politicians and when they go into public life they at the very least
:15:06. > :15:11.put their business interests into blind trusts, or have other people
:15:11. > :15:16.run them, and leave business altogether. For your information I
:15:16. > :15:21.don't do any business. You don't do any business at all? Whatever
:15:21. > :15:30.business interests I have they are done by people who run those
:15:30. > :15:33.businesses on a professional basis, and that's it. And you have faced
:15:33. > :15:37.serious allegations of corruption, you fought them and you have won
:15:37. > :15:41.court cases and you have had your name cleared. But as we have
:15:41. > :15:49.discussed, and I think you've agreed, Kenyon needs politicians
:15:49. > :15:56.who are frankly seemingly squeaky- clean. Do you fit that bill? I do.
:15:56. > :16:02.If you are accused of something you are taken to court, because
:16:02. > :16:09.accusation is an allegation. Right? And you are cleared by the court.
:16:09. > :16:15.Guilty or not guilty. If you are cleared by the Court, are you are
:16:15. > :16:19.innocent or are you guilty? Let's put it that way. It seems strange
:16:19. > :16:23.that allegations seem to be attracted to you, with it is the
:16:23. > :16:28.Kenya Tight Lines scandal, whether it was the maize scandal when you
:16:28. > :16:33.were in agriculture. -- pipelines. You seem to attract these legal
:16:33. > :16:43.difficulties if I can put it that way. Why do you think that is?
:16:43. > :16:44.
:16:44. > :16:49.you come from a background like mine and you work hard, and people
:16:50. > :16:54.cannot just place me, Willian Ruto, the son of who? How can he come
:16:54. > :16:58.this far? There must be some short cuts he has done. Therefore we have
:16:58. > :17:02.to check. There is a real discussion at the moment in Kenya
:17:02. > :17:08.as to whether the candidate running for President should be allowed to
:17:08. > :17:11.spend as freely as he once in the campaign. There has been talking
:17:11. > :17:17.Parliament of curving campaign spending, of implementing new
:17:17. > :17:21.campaign finance regulation, do you support that? I do. By believe that
:17:22. > :17:26.Kenyans should be able to make choices -- I believe. These choices
:17:26. > :17:30.should be on the basis of what these candidates stand for, not on
:17:30. > :17:35.the basis of how much money they have. You I know are raising an
:17:35. > :17:41.awful lot of money. You have had your 100,000 shinning a-plate
:17:41. > :17:45.dinners, some have made many millions of shillings, you and can
:17:45. > :17:49.data are perhaps seen as the best endowed financially of the
:17:49. > :17:57.presidential candidates, you might dispute that. But how much are you
:17:57. > :18:07.prepared to spend to win this election? I am prepared to spend
:18:07. > :18:11.
:18:11. > :18:17.the money enough to take me to the position, what policy programmes I
:18:17. > :18:22.have for this country. That is how much I need to be able to be
:18:22. > :18:26.elected President of Kenya. I need to be able to explain myself to as
:18:26. > :18:36.many Kenyans as I can, time allowing. How much do you think it
:18:36. > :18:39.
:18:39. > :18:46.will take? You have talked about us raising $41 million... 41 million
:18:46. > :18:53.schillings, which is a lot of money. But in terms of politics and how
:18:53. > :19:01.much you need to spend, even to produce election material alone,
:19:01. > :19:06.that money is not enough. All right? So you will spend your own
:19:06. > :19:10.money, Your Own Business Money? will spend money from friends.
:19:10. > :19:15.much would you spend? Hundreds of millions of Kenyan shillings?
:19:15. > :19:20.will make it available to the people of Kenya to see. When we
:19:20. > :19:24.carried out our fund-raising we did not do it under cover. We brought
:19:24. > :19:28.it to the public domain. And if I may say so you have always talked
:19:28. > :19:32.about transparency and you may be more than can utter have said yes
:19:32. > :19:38.I'm wealthy but I am prepared to account for every single penny that
:19:38. > :19:45.I have made. Now on HARDtalk will you tell the Kenyan people how much
:19:45. > :19:51.you are worth? I don't think that's a discussion for here. You are the
:19:51. > :19:57.man that says transparency is Keith. I am not in the League of the rich
:19:57. > :20:01.people of Kenya -- he's keep. But I am not a poor man. The problem for
:20:01. > :20:06.Kenya is that political insecurities and instabilities seem
:20:06. > :20:12.to have slowed down Kenya's attractiveness to foreign
:20:12. > :20:18.investment. How do you persuade the world that Kenya is not facing a
:20:18. > :20:25.new period of instability, as this election campaign unfolds? You have
:20:25. > :20:33.put it correctly. The single critical issue that we must address,
:20:33. > :20:41.and that is going to determine this election, is how to build the
:20:41. > :20:45.economy. Who has what it takes to grow the economy of Kenya? Our
:20:45. > :20:51.neighbours are growing the economy at 12 %. Across in Ghana they are
:20:51. > :20:56.growing the economy at 13 %. Our economy is growing at 4.5 %.
:20:56. > :21:02.There's no reason why the Kenyan economy cannot grow by double
:21:03. > :21:12.digits. Right? And there are clear specific growth areas that if you
:21:13. > :21:15.
:21:15. > :21:21.have a government, and specifically a leader, who has a track record
:21:21. > :21:26.like I have. In ministry that I have run in this country, I took
:21:26. > :21:31.the Minister of Agriculture to the heights of number one. I went to
:21:31. > :21:35.the Ministry of higher education and I did the same. This country
:21:35. > :21:40.requires a leader who is a performer, he knows where the
:21:40. > :21:42.trouble is and he goes for it and he unravels it. To go back to the
:21:42. > :21:47.beginning, you think you can deliver that message and persuade
:21:47. > :21:52.the outside world that you know how to deliver that economic growth for
:21:52. > :21:58.Kenya at the same time as appearing before an international tribunal
:21:58. > :22:02.charged with serious crimes against humanity. You see no contradiction
:22:02. > :22:09.there whatsoever? I see no contradiction at all. Because this
:22:09. > :22:14.is a job I have to do for Kenya. As for the allegations, they are
:22:14. > :22:22.allegations. Right? And the people of Kenya are the jury. If the
:22:22. > :22:27.people of Kenya decide that they have seen the allegations against
:22:27. > :22:32.William Ruto, he has at what it takes to run his country. But the
:22:32. > :22:37.jury sits in The Hague. And all the evidence can find you guilty and
:22:38. > :22:42.that means you will be a President in a jail in a foreign country.
:22:42. > :22:46.jury are the Kenyan people. We are talking about an election here, we
:22:46. > :22:51.are not conducting the case in the election. It is not about the case
:22:51. > :22:55.in The Hague, it is about electing a president for Kenya who will take