:00:15. > :00:20.Now on BBC News it's time for HardTalk. We are in Paris when
:00:20. > :00:24.there's an assumption that France will play a key role in defining
:00:24. > :00:30.the European future. How does that fit with current reality? The
:00:30. > :00:35.French economy is in a mess and the public seems disillusioned with the
:00:35. > :00:40.EU and the new Socialist government has yet to define its vision for
:00:40. > :00:46.Europe. My guest today is the new Minister for Europe, Bernard
:00:46. > :00:56.Cazeneuve. Is France capable of leading at the EU out of this
:00:56. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:27.current crisis? Welcome to the show. On the eve of another European
:01:27. > :01:37.summit, evilly that the EU has decided once and for all that it
:01:37. > :01:37.
:01:37. > :01:47.cannot afford their great exit from the risen? A hopes so. At the last
:01:47. > :01:49.
:01:49. > :01:58.conference in June, we decided to say we wanted to find a way to go
:01:58. > :02:06.back to growth and to create jobs. What we decided in June together,
:02:06. > :02:16.was first of all, to rebalance the fiscal compact with the growth
:02:16. > :02:19.
:02:19. > :02:26.Compact. 20 billion euros of investment for the future. We also
:02:26. > :02:31.decided to lower seat all the banks in Europe with a new mechanism. A
:02:31. > :02:36.mechanism of surveillance of all of the banks in Europe. We also
:02:36. > :02:44.decided to have more solidarity between the countries in Europe in
:02:44. > :02:49.order to overcome that. Those three decisions would have a good
:02:49. > :02:54.consequence for the future and for the future in Greece. The specially
:02:54. > :02:59.for Greece, but with respect, the growth Compaq, money for
:02:59. > :03:04.development projects around the EU because of that, also the banking
:03:04. > :03:10.reforms that were discussed, they will not change the situation in
:03:10. > :03:15.Greece in the short-term. Greece is still buried under a mountain of
:03:15. > :03:21.debt. How many times will be European leaders kick this problem
:03:21. > :03:27.down the road and expect somehow, that Greece will escape from the
:03:27. > :03:34.economic catastrophe that it is currently experiencing. In the
:03:34. > :03:38.short-term we wait for the Twigger report. It's absolutely necessary
:03:38. > :03:45.for the Greek government to make more efforts in order to decrease
:03:45. > :03:51.the level of debt and offset the deficit and also to organise their
:03:51. > :03:57.administration. It's very important to have more efficiency with the
:03:57. > :04:04.Government of that country. We're a waiting for the Twitter report. We
:04:04. > :04:11.wait for that report next month. We will take big debt issue up after
:04:11. > :04:16.that report. With respect, we know what will be in that report, they
:04:17. > :04:22.would do plant more austerity measures. This is what I know, the
:04:22. > :04:27.figures from Greece are appalling. The economy has shrunk 25% side.
:04:27. > :04:32.The debt has not been reduced. To quote the Swedish finance minister
:04:32. > :04:37.the other day, he said in the long run, whatever we decide short-term,
:04:37. > :04:42.in the long-term, it's probable that the Greeks will leave the
:04:42. > :04:52.eurozone. We don't want that to happen. We're fighting to get that
:04:52. > :04:54.
:04:54. > :05:00.in order to avoid that issue. Why? Because if we don't succeed in
:05:00. > :05:05.maintaining the eurozone with Greece, the people will suffer more
:05:05. > :05:12.and more. We're completely aware of that situation and it's difficult
:05:12. > :05:17.in Greece. We also know that the Government there, the new
:05:17. > :05:23.government is making an effort to organise the administration and to
:05:24. > :05:31.decrease the level of debt and the deficit. I don't know what is the
:05:31. > :05:37.match report. If there are efforts in Greece in order to overcome that,
:05:37. > :05:42.we shall speak about that and help Greece in order to go further with
:05:42. > :05:47.them in the eurozone. We will make a decision. I am intrigued to hear
:05:47. > :05:51.your thoughts on that right now. For us here, it's our first
:05:51. > :06:01.opportunity to speak to a minister in the Socialist government here in
:06:01. > :06:07.Paris. You, as a socialist, are you inclined to believe that the policy
:06:07. > :06:15.adopted by the new leadership, the European Central Bank and the IMF
:06:15. > :06:20.over the last few years, been too tough, too focused on austerity
:06:20. > :06:25.measures around the sovereign periphery in Europe. As a socialist,
:06:26. > :06:30.look at all his workers protesting. They're conservative in Great
:06:30. > :06:36.Britain. This too much austerity in Europe. It's not a question of
:06:36. > :06:45.Socialists, as a socialist by there is too much austerity in Europe.
:06:45. > :06:51.It's impossible to overcome that crisis without strong initiatives
:06:51. > :06:56.of growth. This is important. Does the German driven policy that has
:06:56. > :07:03.been imposed upon Greece, Spain, Portugal, as been counter-
:07:03. > :07:11.productive? I do not say that. I stay at it's absolutely necessary
:07:11. > :07:16.to rebalance the European Policy in order to have in Europe,
:07:16. > :07:20.disciplined with an initiative for growth. That's what we wanted to do
:07:20. > :07:28.when we arrived at the Government. That was back in May. That's what
:07:28. > :07:32.we tried to do jury the conference in June with an hour partners from
:07:32. > :07:42.the EU. All of those decisions were very important. During the summer
:07:42. > :07:43.
:07:43. > :07:49.we were not confronted to speculation. It's a very important
:07:49. > :07:55.decision. That was back in June. We were able to implement all of those
:07:55. > :08:01.decisions before the end of this year. In strikes me as you, in the
:08:01. > :08:07.Socialist Party, you are deeply divided about austerity within
:08:07. > :08:13.yourselves and with the neurone country. You, before you were a
:08:13. > :08:17.minister, for years, you opposed what you call me economic
:08:17. > :08:23.liberalism from other parts of Europe. At one reason why you
:08:23. > :08:29.supported that vote No to the proposed European Constitution. Now
:08:29. > :08:34.you're a socialist in power who has put your own party to accept a
:08:34. > :08:40.fiscal compact which demands complete budgetary discipline and
:08:40. > :08:45.it basically, that you wipe out the budget deficit and never, by law,
:08:45. > :08:55.allow that to come back. It's a very strange kind of U-turn that
:08:55. > :08:56.
:08:56. > :09:02.you have made. Can I ask you to questions. In 2005, wasn't it the
:09:03. > :09:08.same text, and the second question, the same context. It was not. Here
:09:08. > :09:13.in terms of the overall issue it was the same kind of issue
:09:13. > :09:21.confronting the Socialist Party right now and you remain divided.
:09:21. > :09:27.But the exclamation is very important. In 2005, we were
:09:27. > :09:36.confronted with a situation not to have a fiscal compact and we wanted
:09:36. > :09:41.to fight against problems in Europe with less public service and more
:09:41. > :09:47.budgetary disciplines without growth and without solidarity.
:09:47. > :09:52.That's why I decided in 2005 two- boat know. Now I am in government.
:09:52. > :09:58.We want to have a new deal in Europe. We want more growth and
:09:58. > :10:03.more solidarity. It's impossible to have more solidarity and growth and
:10:03. > :10:08.have a banking union without budgetary discipline. We have to
:10:08. > :10:13.increase the level of debt and deficit everywhere in Europe. It's
:10:13. > :10:20.absolutely impossible to decrease will have that without growth. It's
:10:20. > :10:23.impossible to have growth if we're unable to decrease the debt. If you
:10:23. > :10:33.don't decrease the level of debt and deficit you will be confronted
:10:33. > :10:34.
:10:34. > :10:40.with a high level of stress. But why we have to fight against debt
:10:40. > :10:44.and deficit and to fight in order for growth and that our policy
:10:44. > :10:49.hearing France. What do you say to the senior figures in your own
:10:49. > :10:55.party who are deeply unhappy that you and the Government has now tied
:10:55. > :11:02.into this 3% target for the deficit this year and another commitment to
:11:02. > :11:06.eradicate the deficit altogether. Some say it's President Sarkozy's
:11:06. > :11:11.legacy from the National Assembly and some say it's absurd and
:11:11. > :11:21.untenable to meet that target at the moment. These are your own
:11:21. > :11:23.
:11:23. > :11:29.people. We're confronted with this text which was not written by us,
:11:29. > :11:34.the fiscal impact. If we want more solidarity and competitiveness in
:11:34. > :11:41.Europe, we need to decrease the level of debt and deficit. We were
:11:41. > :11:48.elected for that. That's why we are trying to succeed to reach that aim.
:11:48. > :11:52.Let's UN pick a bit about growth. You say you're committed to kick-
:11:52. > :11:57.starting growth in France and Europe. Do you think that the
:11:58. > :12:04.Budget, the Socialist budget here in this country focusing on the
:12:04. > :12:09.deficit reduction and raising taxes and raising taxes for businesses
:12:09. > :12:13.while maintaining public spending. Is that the best way to deliver an
:12:13. > :12:23.entrepreneurial growth in France? That is not what we're doing.
:12:23. > :12:29.That's not what we're doing. What are we doing? We're decrease in the
:12:29. > :12:33.public spending 10 billion euros. Two-thirds of the deficit reduction
:12:33. > :12:41.is about raising taxes and one third is about cutting public
:12:41. > :12:48.expenditure. One third is about cutting the public spending. One
:12:48. > :12:53.third is about taxes for the people, rich people, not all of the people,
:12:53. > :13:02.because some people in France who are suffering. We are completely
:13:02. > :13:07.aware that very difficult for us to pay more. Particularly we are in
:13:07. > :13:16.difficulties and asking the people who have the means to pay more than
:13:16. > :13:23.the others. The last point is for the bigger companies, not the small
:13:23. > :13:31.companies, not smaller structures who invest in innovation but the
:13:31. > :13:34.bigger companies. Some people who represent the employers' operation
:13:34. > :13:41.say it's beyond grave this situation for French businesses
:13:41. > :13:47.today. As a movement of entrepreneurs in your country
:13:47. > :13:51.saying that these policies you have introduced, the taxation of
:13:52. > :14:01.dividends and capital gains, that will kill off the entrepreneurial
:14:02. > :14:03.
:14:03. > :14:11.spirit in France. We have to reach the aim of the justice. It's
:14:11. > :14:19.impossible to work from the crisis of calling every day poor people to
:14:19. > :14:24.pay more and more. During the last government, the rich people were
:14:24. > :14:29.helped in a way they were never helped before. We're confronted
:14:29. > :14:35.with a tremendous crisis. It's absolutely abnormal during a very
:14:35. > :14:40.short period in front of such difficulties and such crisis for
:14:40. > :14:44.national reasons what we call patriotism to ask the rich people
:14:44. > :14:49.to pay just a little bit more in order to help their own country to
:14:49. > :14:56.overcome this crisis. This is absolutely absurd? Is it abnormal?
:14:57. > :15:06.I do not think so. It's not for eternity. It's just in order to
:15:06. > :15:16.overcome this crisis because we're in a tragic situation. The Public
:15:16. > :15:17.
:15:17. > :15:21.Accounts a run of bad situation. We You have the my unofficial New
:15:21. > :15:31.France say that you have to an 0.5% and employment next year. You have
:15:31. > :15:33.
:15:33. > :15:37.no growth. Your economy is a terrible mess. Your Own Business
:15:37. > :15:43.leaders say the climate you are creating in France is going to make
:15:43. > :15:48.attracting business talents into this country almost impossible. You
:15:48. > :15:51.have David Cameron, across the English Channel, wanting to roll at
:15:51. > :15:55.the front bar but for French business leaders and entrepreneur's
:15:55. > :16:05.because he believes that they will see London as a much more
:16:05. > :16:08.attractive place to work and invest than France. In France we are
:16:08. > :16:14.always in favour of from the relationships with our partners in
:16:14. > :16:24.Europe. Great Britain is a great partner. There are not going to
:16:24. > :16:34.argue that. And go to answer your question. We can we go -- what can
:16:34. > :16:37.
:16:37. > :16:42.we do it great, but to City -- competitiveness. It must be a bit
:16:42. > :16:47.alarming when you look at the opinion polls uneasy at Francois
:16:48. > :16:52.Hollande is now more unpopular than Nicolas Sarkozy when it comes the
:16:52. > :16:58.question of who you believe could best run the economy. Francois
:16:58. > :17:04.Hollande has the lowest approval ratings of any modern French leader.
:17:04. > :17:11.My friends do not believe in the programming of up land. We are
:17:11. > :17:18.taking very courageous decisions. We're not afraid to be unpopular if
:17:18. > :17:24.it is for the good of the country. We want to succeed. We have to be
:17:24. > :17:33.courageous but it. It is not a problem France. It at the end of
:17:33. > :17:37.the period, what will be the resorts? We will add to the
:17:37. > :17:42.conversation about how France would try to find economic growth. They
:17:42. > :17:51.thought about the wider European picture. What we have seen the last
:17:51. > :17:57.few months I important signals from the President of the European
:17:57. > :18:05.Commission, the group has its dip of the European Council, the ECB,
:18:05. > :18:15.they all say Europe is to find a way to a fiscal union with much
:18:15. > :18:15.
:18:15. > :18:21.deeper integration of its treasury, budgets, tax system and also a plea,
:18:21. > :18:31.-- automatically a deeper political union. This France share that
:18:31. > :18:41.feeling? Yes we share that feeling. If we want are the people in Europe
:18:41. > :18:52.
:18:52. > :18:56.to agree with us we have to find a solution for the crisis now. We
:18:56. > :19:02.want to be able to implement all the decisions we have taken. We
:19:02. > :19:09.want to address emergencies in Greece, Spain, France, everywhere
:19:09. > :19:14.in Europe. This is what we're trying to do. If we are unable to
:19:14. > :19:19.address emergencies right now, it would be impossible to have new
:19:19. > :19:28.treaties and more political union. When the question will be of the
:19:28. > :19:32.table, the people will say no. They did not want to be in Europe. If we
:19:32. > :19:37.do not want people to divorce from the project of Europe we have to
:19:37. > :19:44.prove that we are able to answer to what the questions and all the
:19:44. > :19:51.emergencies now. If we are in the will of that -- if we are able to
:19:51. > :19:58.do that, we can do that. How deep de think is the current French
:19:58. > :20:06.public discontent with the EU? You have spoken of at the French public
:20:06. > :20:15.losing its love for the European Union. They think in England it is
:20:15. > :20:19.the same case. If the Franco-German alliance drives Europe forward, the
:20:19. > :20:24.message you are giving is different to what we hear from Angela Merkel
:20:24. > :20:31.and the Germans. You're saying that France is in grave danger. The
:20:31. > :20:35.polls suggested is true. They want to see this integration, not more.
:20:35. > :20:43.It is not different. It is a question of murdered. It is not a
:20:43. > :20:46.question of target. We are able, with Germany, to create the
:20:46. > :20:55.conditions for a new Europe with more political union and more
:20:55. > :20:59.integration. We will be able to find a good compromise in Europe in
:20:59. > :21:09.were to go further. Many keep saying we, we must find the right
:21:09. > :21:10.
:21:10. > :21:15.way to move forward. I just wonder who this week is. You know that
:21:15. > :21:19.there are certain members of the EU were not interested in moving
:21:19. > :21:24.towards a fuller, deeper integration. Britain is perhaps the
:21:24. > :21:31.most significant nation. It does not appear interested in this
:21:31. > :21:35.philosophy. Do you think there will come a time that Britain does not
:21:35. > :21:43.want to become part of a planet of tasers interests that make a
:21:43. > :21:53.financial tack -- financial transaction tax. Do you think they
:21:53. > :21:55.
:21:55. > :22:05.will be time for the recognition of a two-speed Europe? I agree with
:22:05. > :22:08.
:22:08. > :22:15.you. Great Britain does not want to adopt the financial transaction tax.
:22:16. > :22:25.It does not want banking union. Great Britain was absolutely to
:22:25. > :22:34.stay within the market. We have to fight the institutional solutions
:22:34. > :22:42.to be able to articulate within the Intel market. If Britain seeks more
:22:42. > :22:50.and more opt-outs from different parts of the European integration
:22:50. > :22:57.project, if Britain seems more and more's there is a red carpet for
:22:57. > :23:00.European citizens in Great Britain if they want to go to France. You
:23:00. > :23:07.can roll up the red carpet for the British if you want, but my point
:23:07. > :23:12.is this. If Britain is seeking to go its own way, would you prefer to
:23:13. > :23:19.have Britain's semi-detached within the European Union or which but for
:23:19. > :23:26.Britain to make a clean break and leave? Are what Great Britain to be
:23:26. > :23:33.within the internal market and to be part of Europe. I'm sure that
:23:33. > :23:38.all the governments in Great Britain do not want to go away.
:23:38. > :23:47.They have their own approach to European issues. We have to respect
:23:48. > :23:57.that. We have to find solutions were the right disagreements. I'm
:23:58. > :23:58.
:23:58. > :24:07.sure that nobody, even in Great Britain Dr Conrad Moreira there are
:24:07. > :24:17.plenty of people. They would like to have a special position in
:24:17. > :24:20.
:24:20. > :24:24.Europe. I'm not sure that we will be happy it tomorrow morning they