:00:06. > :00:12.head of state to visit the region since Hamas took power years ago.
:00:12. > :00:19.Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
:00:19. > :00:22.Arabs have risen up against their repressive authoritarian rulers.
:00:22. > :00:29.What will their post revolution societies look like? In Egypt and
:00:29. > :00:39.twos here, power has shifted towards political Islam. -- to
:00:39. > :00:39.
:00:39. > :00:44.easier. My guest is a Mona Eltahawy. The controversial writer and
:00:44. > :00:50.feminist says genuine liberation is impossible if Arab men continue to
:00:50. > :01:00.hate Arab women. Is her message a wake-up call or a dangerous
:01:00. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:29.Mona Eltahawy, Welcome to HARDtalk. In your review, has they actually
:01:29. > :01:33.been an Egyptian Revolution? Absolutely. It began many years ago.
:01:33. > :01:41.We do not just wake up on January 25th and say, we should be used now.
:01:41. > :01:47.It is far from over. It is not finished. The spring has not turned
:01:47. > :01:51.into winter. The revolution continues. In your writing,
:01:51. > :01:57.practically of that piece he wrote for the Foreign Policy magazine,
:01:57. > :02:06.you make it sound like a man only political operating that we saw in
:02:06. > :02:13.Egypt. Is that how you feel about it then and now? No. For the civil
:02:13. > :02:20.months after 25th January, you saw many men and women five -- side-by-
:02:20. > :02:25.side. There were virginity tests that female revolutionaries were
:02:25. > :02:31.subjected to. And constant violence against women. In the constitution,
:02:31. > :02:40.only five women out of 100 are working. It is outrageous. How far
:02:40. > :02:48.can you take this idea? One thing you wrote, we have no freedom
:02:48. > :02:55.because they hate us. The title, why do they hate us?, is a play on
:02:55. > :03:01.another piece of writing. What he also said at the time, they hate us
:03:01. > :03:06.because of our freedom. I took that and turned has-it upside-down. We
:03:06. > :03:12.have no freedom because the men hate us. Are you saying we should
:03:12. > :03:17.not take it too seriously? I was being provocative. Did you mean it?
:03:17. > :03:23.I meant it to provoke and heard. Women have been heard by these
:03:23. > :03:29.virginity tests. Women continue to be heard by high levels of genital
:03:29. > :03:35.mutilation in Egypt. A few days ago, a journalist was sexually assaulted
:03:35. > :03:40.in Tahrir Square. Women have been heard by a denial of misogyny that
:03:40. > :03:45.cuts across the Middle East and North Africa. It is not limited to
:03:45. > :03:49.that part of the world. Criticism has been directed towards me
:03:50. > :03:55.because I make it seem like it is limited to that part of the world.
:03:55. > :04:01.We will get to that charge. You betrayed the global sisterhood by
:04:01. > :04:06.focusing on one region. Before we get there, we will persist with
:04:06. > :04:13.your efforts with the revolution and your conclusions. I am puzzled.
:04:13. > :04:20.There are still many very active women in today's Egyptian politics.
:04:20. > :04:24.Many of them dissociate with the message. They say, we are not
:04:24. > :04:30.helpless or victims. Mona Eltahawy has no right to speak for us.
:04:30. > :04:36.cannot speak for them. I read it in my name. But they have been
:04:36. > :04:41.generalisations. I have 3,000 words. I will move back to Egypt to write
:04:41. > :04:46.a book based on those 3,000 words. I will lay out the arguments in
:04:46. > :04:53.greater links. I had to go across the whole region, from Morocco,
:04:53. > :05:03.Tunisia. I had to deliver a message that was quick. A revolution began
:05:03. > :05:11.by a man who set himself on fire. Women's rights need to be seen.
:05:11. > :05:21.is not a homogenous region. When you talk of Egypt 2012, in the same
:05:21. > :05:21.
:05:21. > :05:24.breath of Saudi Arabia, women cannot evade or a drive, when you
:05:24. > :05:29.took them to a tour of mutilation, which is much higher in Arab
:05:29. > :05:32.countries and others, you are lumping together a region and a set
:05:32. > :05:37.of peoples who actually have different approaches TV is gender
:05:37. > :05:43.issues. Here is where I can lob them in. When you look at gender
:05:43. > :05:49.indices compiled every year, that part of the world, mostly described
:05:49. > :05:56.as Arab, but let us say Middle East and North Africa, it factors into
:05:56. > :06:04.the bottom part of gender in the seas. Of 135 countries, those
:06:04. > :06:08.countries were in the bottom 100. Even worse. Yemen was in the bottom
:06:08. > :06:15.10. I can generalise. The Arab world scores horrendously badly
:06:15. > :06:21.when it comes to gender in the seas. Each country is different. In the
:06:21. > :06:27.essay, I was asking, what drives women's in abilities to drive in
:06:27. > :06:36.Saudi Arabia and why are they treated like five-year-olds? Men
:06:36. > :06:41.can walk away if he agrees to merit -- Mary his victim of rape. Five
:06:41. > :06:49.responding with the writings he, with. Do you mean Muslim quarter
:06:49. > :06:54.rather than Arab culture? No. I was focusing on the Arab -- Arabic-
:06:54. > :07:00.speaking countries. I don't even say Arab Spring. I wanted to focus
:07:00. > :07:05.on that part of the world and look at how Islam and culture are
:07:05. > :07:09.married in this toxic relationship. Is there a difference? He message
:07:10. > :07:17.from the Arab world is different to that of Afghanistan or Pakistan?
:07:17. > :07:24.is. These countries are different. I acknowledge the different
:07:24. > :07:28.violations women are subjected to. I cannot compare Syria to
:07:28. > :07:33.Afghanistan. It would be a different essay. There are some
:07:33. > :07:37.similarities. You have Conservative interpretations of Islam where it
:07:37. > :07:47.will have intersections with Conservative into pet --
:07:47. > :07:48.
:07:48. > :07:55.People watching this will want to know personal details, whether you
:07:55. > :08:05.are an observant Muslim. That is nobody's business. All that matters
:08:05. > :08:10.
:08:10. > :08:17.is by identify as a Muslim. That is It has created a door to more
:08:17. > :08:22.progressive Muslim groups. We had a mission statement. Number one in
:08:22. > :08:32.that was anyone who utter defies as a Muslim is a Muslim. That's all
:08:32. > :08:34.
:08:34. > :08:39.that counts. When it comes to development of Arab politics, some
:08:40. > :08:48.have taken against you in a big way. But as start with a woman. She
:08:48. > :08:54.works for caged prisoners, a group in the US. She says, she sees
:08:54. > :08:59.misogyny as a global phenomenon. It is not unique to Arab women. She
:08:59. > :09:04.says, you leave millions of non Arab women, who have also victims
:09:04. > :09:10.of systemic misogyny defend for themselves. This is a global
:09:10. > :09:16.sisterhood who were mentioned earlier. When I'm on American TV, I
:09:16. > :09:21.make connections. I talk about feminism in the US and war on women
:09:21. > :09:26.in the US. I talk about the Congress and how it is the least
:09:26. > :09:36.women friendly in a long time. In my essay, I wanted to devote the
:09:36. > :09:42.3,000 words on where I come from. Can I not do that? Do I have to say,
:09:42. > :09:49.women in Pakistan, Argentina, England? What do you say to people
:09:49. > :09:55.who work in the human rights campaign committee in Egypt? Brakes
:09:55. > :10:00.are poor, a woman who works in health issues. Saying Arab man who
:10:00. > :10:10.hates Arab women present us as being needing saving. I'm not a
:10:10. > :10:10.
:10:10. > :10:16.victim. I never once in the ASA said that Arab women needed to be
:10:16. > :10:24.saved. Many activists who led the driving campaign to break the ban
:10:24. > :10:28.against women driving ended up in jail. Does it worry you that some
:10:28. > :10:34.people you characterise as a female heroes proposed to your way of
:10:34. > :10:39.thinking? But it is their right. I have differences with ways of their
:10:40. > :10:44.thinking as well. But why are you not taking this people with you?
:10:44. > :10:51.Why do they see you as an extremist? I think it is useful to
:10:51. > :10:57.be an extremist. I hate the word moderate. It helps to be extremist.
:10:57. > :11:02.I'm pushing and provoking, and going towards the left, hoping to
:11:02. > :11:08.create a bigger space for those who want to be in the middle. Women do
:11:08. > :11:13.not have to agree with what I say. What comes to me is when I'm in
:11:13. > :11:19.Egypt, young people come up to me, not involved in communities for
:11:19. > :11:26.activism, and they say, we love your essay, can we start up
:11:26. > :11:31.something? I wonder if you have been driven by personal rage. You
:11:31. > :11:36.have suffered certain experiences which most women watching this
:11:36. > :11:41.programme could only imagine. I am referring specifically to November
:11:41. > :11:47.last year, when you were detained by the security forces in the
:11:47. > :11:57.demonstrations. But after Mubarak. You found yourself detained four
:11:57. > :11:57.
:11:57. > :12:04.hours. You were beaten and sexually assaulted. Yes. He was so enraged.
:12:04. > :12:10.-- you were so enraged. I have been a writer for more than 20 years. My
:12:10. > :12:16.rage has been consistent. What happened to me pushed me over the
:12:16. > :12:21.edge. I had been writing columns for the Guardian since the January
:12:21. > :12:27.25 Revolution began. If I go through my columns, I kept asking
:12:27. > :12:34.the question, where is the rage against the mileage -- violations
:12:34. > :12:40.of women's rights? I expected, this is a new Egypt. I thought there
:12:40. > :12:49.would be thousands in the streets, saying, this cannot happen. I began
:12:49. > :12:54.to think, we need to make a huge fuss. I would have to be clear...
:12:54. > :13:01.Was the experience an example of misogyny? Many human beings are
:13:01. > :13:11.brutally assaulted by Egyptian security. Where does the point
:13:11. > :13:12.
:13:12. > :13:17.about misogyny come into all this? The regime did what it did to me.
:13:17. > :13:22.That is the same regime that suppresses everyone in Egypt and
:13:22. > :13:31.violates their rights. There is another level of suppression with
:13:31. > :13:38.Egyptian women. That is at culture at large. I went to the anniversary.
:13:38. > :13:44.I had two broken homes. I was trying to get to the CNN Office. I
:13:44. > :13:50.saw a crowd of men. When my palms were not broken, I fight back. I
:13:50. > :13:56.needed the help of a man to get through the crowd of men. At that
:13:56. > :14:02.moment, it is not about the regime but culture. Eight culture that we
:14:03. > :14:12.have to fight against for the revolution to succeed. When you
:14:12. > :14:17.talk about being groped, having your breasts prodded, magenta --
:14:17. > :14:24.your genital area or field, you say that males, even revolutionary
:14:24. > :14:30.males, a demanding political reform and want to do that to you.
:14:30. > :14:35.same day that this happened to me, I hit a man in Tahrir Square. He
:14:35. > :14:43.gripped my backside. If you hear about the levels of sexual assault
:14:43. > :14:49.and harassment in Egypt, it is an epidemic. The BBC called it an
:14:49. > :14:53.epidemic during a documentary. In 2006, according to a survey, more
:14:53. > :15:03.than 80% of people face strict sexual harassment on a daily basis
:15:03. > :15:07.
:15:07. > :15:12.in Egypt. Those figures are How do you think the men who have
:15:12. > :15:19.sacrificed their health feel when you hear them damned as males as
:15:19. > :15:23.part of a system and a patriarchy which hates women? I hope they will
:15:24. > :15:27.say I do not hate women and I will make sure women are not forgotten
:15:27. > :15:35.or rejected in the revolution because historically they have been.
:15:35. > :15:40.In Egypt, we have had a feminist movement since 1923 but it ebbs and
:15:40. > :15:44.dips. From these men a would like to hear that we will not allow
:15:44. > :15:48.women's rights to continue to deteriorate. We will fight for
:15:48. > :15:54.their rights to be improved and that is an essential part of the
:15:54. > :15:58.revolution. Egypt has had elections since the toppling of Hosni Mubarak.
:15:58. > :16:02.We know what those elections yielded, power to the Moslem
:16:02. > :16:08.Brotherhood and seats to a party you have a Angell rhetorical fire
:16:08. > :16:13.at a number of times, that is democracy. That is what Egyptians
:16:13. > :16:18.want right now. It is only democracy if you think that is
:16:18. > :16:22.putting a piece of paper in a box. That is the start of a long road
:16:22. > :16:26.towards democracy. Given what Egypt has been through in the last 20
:16:27. > :16:33.months, it was the first free and fair election and very important.
:16:33. > :16:40.You cannot deny the results of elections. And extreme secularists
:16:40. > :16:46.like yourselves performed badly in the elections. I do not deny any of
:16:46. > :16:51.those results. But our current President only got 25 per cent. He
:16:51. > :16:57.ended up winning the presidency because he and the other candidate
:16:57. > :17:00.went on to the second round. It is a flawed system but it produced our
:17:00. > :17:06.first free election. There were many violations. I'm not contesting
:17:06. > :17:11.the result but the road towards the elections. I am questioning how
:17:11. > :17:16.free the choice was. We had 60 years of military rule, so it makes
:17:16. > :17:22.it impossible to operate in the middle ground between the regime
:17:22. > :17:27.and the Islamists. Is there an arrogance in your approach to these
:17:28. > :17:32.democratically elected politicians. He dismissed the opposition as men
:17:32. > :17:36.stuck in the 7th century. A quarter of parliamentary seats are held by
:17:36. > :17:42.people who believe that mimicking the original ways of the profit is
:17:42. > :17:46.an appropriate prescription for modern life? The fact is, Egypt has
:17:46. > :17:53.to find a place for this powerful body of opinion. It involves men
:17:53. > :17:58.and women. We have to find a place for them. It is now a dissolved
:17:58. > :18:06.parliament. They are not there anymore. This is a fact we cannot
:18:06. > :18:09.ignore. Some of those men. At end of women. Women can internalise
:18:09. > :18:16.their own subjugation and oppression. I will give you
:18:16. > :18:21.examples of how damaging those men are to revolutionary Egypt. Many of
:18:21. > :18:28.them belong on the constitutional committee writing the constitution.
:18:28. > :18:33.Along with many secularists. they worry me because they are
:18:33. > :18:39.extreme Islamists. They believe it is OK for a nine-year-old girl to
:18:39. > :18:45.get married. They believe that female genital manipulation is a
:18:45. > :18:50.form of female beautification. You cannot vote for people who deny
:18:50. > :18:54.other people their rights. Write some men to give a high ceiling to
:18:54. > :19:02.the majority of people get rights and not take us down to the lowest
:19:02. > :19:06.common denominator. In earlier in this interview, you acknowledge
:19:06. > :19:11.that going to the extreme and being provocative you find quite useful
:19:11. > :19:16.because it opens up the ground behind you. But surely at this
:19:16. > :19:22.point, it is morning due to -- my tutor say the Moslem Brotherhood
:19:22. > :19:26.are trying to reach out to mainstream Egyptians and none
:19:26. > :19:33.extreme opinion. They are saying things like they want to find very
:19:33. > :19:37.significant roles for women. They want to find a way of acknowledging
:19:37. > :19:43.Sharia law from the constitution. They are trying to find common
:19:43. > :19:49.ground. Is it useful in that context for you to persist with
:19:49. > :19:52.your extremism? Is a very useful. As long as there is someone saying
:19:52. > :19:57.nine year-old girl should be married. Why hold them up as the
:19:57. > :20:04.key arbiter of where Egypt is going? I'm glad you asked me that.
:20:04. > :20:06.The Moslem Brotherhood has tried to move itself to the centre. The
:20:06. > :20:13.opposition of playing this nasty game of trying to pull towards the
:20:13. > :20:18.right, they understand that they will tell them -- us they have sold
:20:18. > :20:22.up. He will cede the right-wing ground to the opposition and they
:20:22. > :20:26.will be a disaster especially for women's rights in Egypt. Have you
:20:26. > :20:31.considered running for political office in Egypt? The is it because
:20:31. > :20:36.you would not attract the vote. do not know if I chordal wouldn't.
:20:37. > :20:41.I do not want to. To attract those folks, I will have to offer a
:20:41. > :20:47.compromise. I do not want to. If there is someone on the extreme
:20:47. > :20:50.right, I will remain on the extreme left. Many in Egypt would see you
:20:50. > :20:56.as a woman who spends so much time in the West and spending half your
:20:56. > :21:00.time and the United States, but you are no longer genuinely of Egypt in
:21:00. > :21:07.the way they are. G sometimes worry that should take on what is
:21:07. > :21:11.happening in the arable today feeds into an analysis, clash of
:21:11. > :21:18.civilisations approach to the differences between Western values
:21:18. > :21:22.and Arab values that many worry is very dangerous? I reject the Clash
:21:22. > :21:27.of civilisations argument. I do not believe different civilisations
:21:27. > :21:32.have different rights. People have the right to be free and everybody
:21:32. > :21:38.has the same needs and values. do believe in generalising about
:21:38. > :21:45.failings and the culture of the Arab world? If a revolution called
:21:45. > :21:49.me a backwards as finest pitch this is a problem. They are uttered
:21:49. > :21:54.those words. Our religion -- revolution is about freedom and
:21:54. > :22:00.dignity. It is not about values between the east and the West, it
:22:00. > :22:04.is about the values of men taking women seriously. I'm about to move
:22:04. > :22:09.back to Egypt full time and locating to Cairo because this is
:22:09. > :22:15.an exciting moment. A moment when I can contribute. I cannot change
:22:15. > :22:19.things in New York but I can help things in Cairo. He said you could
:22:19. > :22:25.not change things and you're, you're a calmly facing criminal
:22:25. > :22:30.proceedings in New York because you got in a spat with the pro-Israeli
:22:30. > :22:34.group and you felt they were racist. They denied that and you said they
:22:34. > :22:39.were hate mongers. When you got involved in that fight and you
:22:39. > :22:44.ended up painting over some of the posters with a spray paint can did
:22:44. > :22:51.you think, they are simply pursuing a provocative and extreme agenda in
:22:51. > :22:56.the same way I do. What right have I got to try to shut them up?
:22:56. > :23:00.was a moment when I thought I could change something in New York.
:23:00. > :23:05.use see my point? You thrive on free expression but you appeared to
:23:05. > :23:11.be trying to stop other people expressing what they wanted to say.
:23:11. > :23:19.That is not what I was trying to do. I saw a new yorker ripped the
:23:19. > :23:22.poster in half. What I was trying to do was, judge called what I
:23:22. > :23:28.called hate speech protected political speech. I wanted my
:23:28. > :23:33.speech to go on their speech. used a spray-paint to obliterate
:23:33. > :23:38.their poster. It was see-through and it was pink. You can still see
:23:38. > :23:42.the word I was trying to make a point. That hate speech must be
:23:42. > :23:47.made socially unacceptable. We have to commit the dots between hate
:23:47. > :23:53.speech and hate crimes. Five days after that the man said my
:23:53. > :23:58.brother's local mosque on fire. you take this attitude and that
:23:58. > :24:02.activism back to Cairo with you? Have slowly. I will work with a