:00:05. > :00:15.with pleading on the brain. -- bleeding. It is time for
:00:15. > :00:19.HARDtalk. Ukraine has just held parliamentary
:00:20. > :00:24.elections. A cause for celebration, the flowering of democracy in a
:00:24. > :00:31.former Soviet republic? Not if you read the reports of international
:00:31. > :00:34.election monitors. Eight years after the Orange revolution, when
:00:34. > :00:40.some -- with some of the DUP mayor's leading critics serving
:00:41. > :00:47.long sentences in jail, has Ukraine made his choice? As it turned its
:00:47. > :00:57.back on membership of the EU? We have the man who advises the
:00:57. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:29.Welcome to HARDtalk. Initially, the day after these parliamentary
:01:29. > :01:33.elections at the end of last month, you held a press conference in
:01:33. > :01:38.which she said that until now, not one observer mission has expressed
:01:38. > :01:43.any significant remarks about the election. You got that one wrong,
:01:43. > :01:50.didn't you? There were a record number of international observers
:01:50. > :01:57.watching the Ukraine elections. 3,800, representing 35
:01:57. > :02:04.international organisations, and 28 countries. Many of them have
:02:04. > :02:10.already made their reports. Most of them are quite positive. The most
:02:10. > :02:15.important report of the lot talks about an abuse of power, I should
:02:15. > :02:19.say that we have not had the final results, but all the indications
:02:19. > :02:24.that it say your party is going to claim victory, it talks about an
:02:24. > :02:31.abuse of power, the excessive role of money in the election, that
:02:31. > :02:41.democratic progress in Ukraine seems to have been reversed.
:02:41. > :02:41.
:02:41. > :02:44.report is not ready yet. This was their interim report. It issues a
:02:45. > :02:51.statement the next day after the election. There is a lot of
:02:51. > :02:55.criticism. But at the same time, the statement says are that the
:02:56. > :03:00.election happened in a democratic and principled manner.
:03:00. > :03:04.statement says, 28th October parliamentary elections work
:03:04. > :03:08.characterised by the lack of a level playing field, caused
:03:08. > :03:12.primarily by the abuse of administrative resources, of
:03:12. > :03:22.campaigner party financing, and lack of balanced media coverage. It
:03:22. > :03:26.is a step backwards. Many observers in Ukraine state that the election
:03:26. > :03:32.happened in a transparent and democratic manner. Why do you think
:03:32. > :03:42.they said that? Wait for the final report. Do you think that they
:03:42. > :03:48.
:03:48. > :03:54.would change their opinion altogether? It is a mixture of
:03:54. > :04:00.stamens -- statements. It is not a report. It detectors recently, the
:04:00. > :04:09.report by the European Parliament, it is quite balanced. -- if you
:04:09. > :04:16.check. You talk about some positive comments. There is a welter of
:04:16. > :04:20.criticism. The head of the election monitors, he says, one should not
:04:20. > :04:26.have to visit a prison to hear from leading political figures in a
:04:26. > :04:31.country. Obviously talking about the jailing of Yulia Tymoshenko
:04:31. > :04:41.among others. That is a criticism that is unlikely to change come the
:04:41. > :04:42.
:04:42. > :04:52.final report. Why they should visit people in prison, is it normal
:04:52. > :04:57.
:04:57. > :05:02.procedure in the UK? The judiciary is an independent system. The
:05:02. > :05:06.uranium court, after a long investigation, sentenced the former
:05:06. > :05:13.prime minister to jail. -- Ukrainian court. Millions of people
:05:13. > :05:18.in my country believe that the court took a right decision. This
:05:18. > :05:21.is not a unique case in the European Union. We know just
:05:21. > :05:29.recently, two former prime ministers were sentenced to jail as
:05:29. > :05:34.well. I want to get into the issue of Yulia Tymoshenko in detail in a
:05:34. > :05:39.little while, but you point, you say that these are just interim
:05:39. > :05:44.findings, but it is unlikely they are going to change their position
:05:44. > :05:50.180 degrees. Let me talk to about something else that is raised by
:05:50. > :05:55.the head of the Elysee office for democratic institutions. He said,
:05:55. > :06:01.the lack of appropriate responses by the authorities to the various
:06:01. > :06:07.electoral violations has led to a climate of impunity, which
:06:07. > :06:14.significant -- significantly limit political pluralism. That is a
:06:14. > :06:18.pretty trenchant criticism of your political climate inside Ukraine.
:06:18. > :06:28.would like to stress that our judicial system is independent of
:06:28. > :06:33.political processes. If European politicians want to comment, please
:06:33. > :06:38.do. A D take these comments seriously? It is not the odd member,
:06:38. > :06:42.we are talking about Hillary Clinton, Catherine Ashton, the head
:06:42. > :06:49.of the European Union follows think this might foreign policy arms,
:06:49. > :06:54.talking jointly about their worry, they regret, their concern. Does
:06:54. > :06:59.that give you any pause for thought? Let's wait for the final
:06:59. > :07:09.report. Have they been presumptuous about talking about their worry and
:07:09. > :07:10.
:07:10. > :07:16.they regret and their concern? are rare member state. We should
:07:16. > :07:21.listen to what our colleagues from organisations where we are a member
:07:21. > :07:29.say about us. Hillary Clinton has already share it -- said, we shared
:07:29. > :07:35.the view of the monitors. It constituted a step backward for
:07:35. > :07:45.Ukrainian democracy. This is the US's top diplomat saying that your
:07:45. > :07:46.
:07:46. > :07:55.elections were a step backward. think it is a political statement.
:07:55. > :08:00.Again, the report is not ready yet. Let me give you one specific
:08:00. > :08:04.example, the behaviour of the prime minister's son, he gave every child
:08:04. > :08:10.in his county a satchel full be kitted out for school before the
:08:10. > :08:16.election. -- fully. The Independent court said it was not Bibury
:08:16. > :08:25.because children do not have the vote. -- not bribery. But their
:08:25. > :08:31.parents do. The law on elections was adopted with the vast majority
:08:31. > :08:38.in the parliaments with a constitutional consensus. Of course
:08:38. > :08:45.there are shortcomings in the law. But it got a positive assessment
:08:45. > :08:53.from the European institutions. I'm here to say that the government and
:08:53. > :09:03.the ruling party, we are committed to further reforming the electoral
:09:03. > :09:04.
:09:04. > :09:08.legislation in Ukraine. It is not just about electoral legislation.
:09:08. > :09:13.It is also about some pretty fundamental things. Let me bring
:09:13. > :09:21.you back to the case of Yulia Tymoshenko. You have already said
:09:21. > :09:26.this was a case that was settled by an independent court. And this is a
:09:26. > :09:30.member of the European relays -- called on foreign relations. It has
:09:30. > :09:40.demonstrated that Ukraine does not have a will of law, it is no rule
:09:40. > :09:40.
:09:40. > :09:46.of law at all. You cannot get more criticism than that. We have been
:09:46. > :09:56.going for a democratic way for 20 years only. We were part of the
:09:56. > :09:56.
:09:57. > :10:05.Soviet Union. We moved quickly into the way of democracy. So in the
:10:05. > :10:12.last years, Ukraine had many reforms. Today we are much closer
:10:12. > :10:16.to European standards. Much closer, and yet you have got Hillary
:10:16. > :10:21.Clinton saying that we call upon the Darfur of Ukraine to put an
:10:21. > :10:25.immediate end to the selective prosecution of political opponents.
:10:25. > :10:35.-- the government of Ukraine. She is talking about Yulia Tymoshenko
:10:35. > :10:36.
:10:36. > :10:42.among others. Ukraine is not unique. So the fact that other countries
:10:42. > :10:47.abuse human rights... she was convicted. Before that, the
:10:47. > :10:52.Romanian prime minister was also put in jail. That is why the case
:10:53. > :10:58.of Tymoshenko is not unique in Europe. But the difference is that
:10:58. > :11:02.large numbers of outside observers, including at the most senior level,
:11:02. > :11:08.they have not criticise the judicial process in Italy, but they
:11:08. > :11:13.have slammed the process in Ukraine. Do think they have got it in for
:11:13. > :11:17.Ukraine because of some silly reason? There is a significant
:11:17. > :11:22.difference between Italy and Ukraine. Italy is already in the
:11:22. > :11:32.European Union. Ukraine is only going to sign an association
:11:32. > :11:33.
:11:33. > :11:41.agreement. Ukraine is of a big interest for European Union
:11:41. > :11:50.countries. Our government, we are all committed to continue
:11:50. > :11:56.democratic reforms. Ukraine today is the most of as democracy, post-
:11:57. > :12:01.Soviet era. Off the Baltic states. You talk about the association
:12:01. > :12:06.agreement. I want to talk about that. Before we do, let's broaden
:12:06. > :12:10.the issue of human rights beyond Yulia Tymoshenko. Last year, you
:12:10. > :12:16.achieved the dubious distinction of making it into the general press
:12:16. > :12:19.release for Amnesty International's annual report. Of all the scores of
:12:19. > :12:23.countries they could have chosen, they said that our volunteer
:12:23. > :12:26.observers noted the deterioration of the situation with the
:12:26. > :12:33.observance of fundamental human rights, the number of allegations
:12:33. > :12:38.of torture, pre-trial detention centres. It increased last year.
:12:38. > :12:45.You talk about the steps you have made, but it seems you have gone
:12:45. > :12:54.backwards. On the contrary, the seed Ukraine has adopted a new
:12:54. > :13:03.Criminal Procedure in court. The last code was adopted in 1960. We
:13:03. > :13:12.are reforming our criminal system, investigation system, and the
:13:12. > :13:18.criminal proceeding code was prepared. European institutions to
:13:18. > :13:22.have said, in turn, that you had ignored their rulings in a way that
:13:22. > :13:27.does not just damage Ukraine, but undermines the whole European
:13:27. > :13:31.system of law. The European Court of Human Rights have had to handle
:13:31. > :13:36.down what is a private judgement against you, a way of trying to
:13:36. > :13:43.force you to comply with their rulings, because up until now, you
:13:44. > :13:53.had ignored a dozens of them. is why we are changing our
:13:54. > :13:55.
:13:55. > :14:00.legislation. In a few days, it will happen. This is a very big step
:14:00. > :14:07.away from the former Soviet system in Ukraine, and after the new code
:14:07. > :14:16.will be implemented, there will be less and less cases, as you
:14:16. > :14:20.The trouble is, as you often see in countries that are emerging, all
:14:20. > :14:25.say they are emerging, from repressive starts when they adopt
:14:25. > :14:29.new constitutions and new laws, they go through the show but
:14:29. > :14:35.essentially nothing really changes underneath because it is the same
:14:35. > :14:45.closed system of interest. Why should people believe that the new
:14:45. > :14:45.
:14:45. > :14:55.Ukraine process will be different? Ukraine has clearly shown that this
:14:55. > :14:56.
:14:56. > :15:03.is the most developing democracy. One example, Ukraine has the number
:15:03. > :15:10.four precedent now through its history. We had many times a
:15:10. > :15:16.transfer of power. -- president. My party, the ruling party, was two
:15:16. > :15:20.times in the opposition and this is a unique situation. Compared with a
:15:20. > :15:27.northern and eastern neighbours, for example. That me ask you about
:15:27. > :15:33.one specific case. The Russian opposition activist, who recently
:15:33. > :15:36.was in kier for attending to apply for asylum. He was, it seems,
:15:36. > :15:42.kidnapped by the Russian authorities and spirited back to
:15:42. > :15:47.Moscow, where he was tortured and confessed to organising riots. He
:15:47. > :15:50.was not extradited. Amnesty says that rather than request
:15:50. > :15:56.extradition, the Russian authorities bypassed any judicial
:15:56. > :15:59.or administrative process in getting him back to Moscow. That is
:15:59. > :16:05.clearly a legal. Are Ukrainian authorities going to investigate
:16:05. > :16:11.this? I am a politician, not a criminal investigator. Do you think
:16:11. > :16:16.they should? Absolutely. It is under investigation now. I have
:16:16. > :16:24.heard the statement by the officer of the prosecutor immediately after
:16:24. > :16:30.this case was reported. They start of the criminal investigation.
:16:30. > :16:34.Let's see what will be the conclusion. When it comes to
:16:34. > :16:41.investigating other abuses, within the Ukraine, there are a lot of
:16:41. > :16:47.people who say that there is an endemic culture of corruption. Take
:16:47. > :16:52.for example your law, nor number 9634, which places off state
:16:52. > :16:55.enterprises outside the law when it comes to tendering. In other words,
:16:55. > :17:00.they can dole out state funds without any accountability or
:17:00. > :17:09.competition. We are talking about tens of billions of dollars. Isn't
:17:09. > :17:13.this a charter for corruption? Ukraine is a young democracy.
:17:13. > :17:21.Corruption in the east - like in the post Soviet space goes down to
:17:21. > :17:25.Soviet times. We have been trying to fight corruption. But this is a
:17:26. > :17:31.law that specifically excludes state enterprises from having to
:17:31. > :17:36.tender for projects. So, they have got about two-thirds of public
:17:36. > :17:40.funds to disperse. Tens of billions of dollars. As I said, no
:17:40. > :17:50.competition for accountability. It's a charter for people to siphon
:17:50. > :17:51.
:17:51. > :17:59.off money. I am not ready to respond. Your interpretation of the
:17:59. > :18:09.law seems to be not right. In what sense? Because all companies can be
:18:09. > :18:12.
:18:12. > :18:18.part of tenders. What we have adopted is to loan public
:18:18. > :18:22.procurement. It says that all companies, public and private, can
:18:22. > :18:26.take part in the tenders. In effect, what we have had recently, a
:18:26. > :18:31.scandal of the school buses for a these incredibly overpriced school
:18:31. > :18:36.buses were bought. There were death traps for children. In some cases,
:18:36. > :18:42.children managed to get off month before the bus has burst into
:18:42. > :18:49.flames. -- moments before. You may say there is competition. The
:18:49. > :18:56.evidence from be -- from within is that it is not working. Since the
:18:56. > :19:02.President won his Office, he is fighting against corruption in the
:19:02. > :19:08.Ukraine. By now, more than 4,000 criminal cases have been launched
:19:08. > :19:12.against officials in the Ukraine. What is important here, some of
:19:12. > :19:21.members of the current government are under investigation now and
:19:21. > :19:25.some of them are already in jail. For example, I can say that the
:19:25. > :19:31.former head of the State Committee for financial services was put in
:19:31. > :19:37.prison for four years. That was on charges of corruption. Let me ask
:19:37. > :19:41.you about how this is being viewed from abroad. Again, I am quoting
:19:41. > :19:45.from your press conference the day after the elections, he said the
:19:46. > :19:50.positive results of these elections would affect the mood in the
:19:50. > :19:54.European Union. You said to have gotten closer to the signing of
:19:54. > :19:58.this important agreement on association with the EU, the first
:19:58. > :20:07.step towards perhaps eventual membership for the Ukraine. Isn't
:20:07. > :20:11.that just a fantasy? If you think about the way in which people are
:20:11. > :20:17.feeling these elections, the way in which people view the Ukraine?
:20:17. > :20:24.said, there are dozens of positive reactions to the elections in the
:20:25. > :20:29.Ukraine. If you check all 35 statements by 35 international
:20:29. > :20:35.organisations, you will find a dozen positive reactions. It makes
:20:35. > :20:40.you wonder why, for the first time in 15 years, there will not be the
:20:40. > :20:44.European Union Ukraine some that this year. It was postponed because
:20:45. > :20:52.of the election. -- summit. A statement from the European
:20:52. > :20:58.Commission... It will take place next year. In regards to the
:20:58. > :21:04.Ukrainian elections, I would refer to a statement by your MP, the
:21:04. > :21:13.British MP, Mr Whittingdale, who assessed the Ukrainian elections as
:21:13. > :21:18.a positive step on the path to democracy. In the meantime, you
:21:18. > :21:25.have other members from the EU, such as the chairman of the
:21:25. > :21:30.Committee on European Union affairs in the Bundestag, saying that until
:21:30. > :21:36.the case against Yulia Tymoshenko is closed, the associated agreement
:21:36. > :21:42.between the Ukraine and the EU will be blocked. No chance of progress.
:21:42. > :21:45.Again, it's a political statement. But it is also a statement of fact,
:21:45. > :21:49.that you will not get disassociation agreement that you
:21:49. > :21:55.desperately need. There are 27 national parliaments in the
:21:56. > :22:02.European Union. We have 27 different opinions. But there is a
:22:02. > :22:06.unanimous opinion in regards to Yulia Tymoshenko. At what happened
:22:06. > :22:10.in your Euro 2012 championships. Leader after leader of boycotted
:22:10. > :22:16.Games in the Ukraine because they did not want to be seen endorsing
:22:16. > :22:20.the Ukrainian government because of the Yulia Tymoshenko problem.
:22:20. > :22:30.not a characteristic of this leaders. Sport should not be mixed
:22:30. > :22:34.
:22:34. > :22:38.with politics. This was set in ancient times. What is positive,
:22:38. > :22:43.the Ukrainian championship went incredibly positively. There are
:22:43. > :22:48.many positive statements on that. With regards to the satiation
:22:48. > :22:56.agreement, I am not sure that the associated agreement is more
:22:56. > :23:02.positive food European producers because it contains a deep and
:23:02. > :23:07.comprehensive free trade agreement. -- for European producers. The
:23:07. > :23:11.Ukraine will open for European business. Is it the truth that as
:23:11. > :23:18.the former US ambassador to the Ukraine, it was pointed out that
:23:18. > :23:22.you have miscalculated on this? In his words, the President has
:23:22. > :23:26.overseen a democratic progression in the Ukraine. He has played a
:23:26. > :23:35.geopolitical game in which he appears to assume that the West and
:23:35. > :23:45.will overlook his Democratic black -- backsliding. This is a
:23:45. > :23:54.miscalculation. Thank you. You are trying to refer to people who
:23:54. > :24:04.intervention. That is why they politicians in the Ukraine. We were
:24:04. > :24:09.
:24:09. > :24:13.not supporters, my party, of that. failure. It failed to give to the
:24:13. > :24:18.Ukrainian people through democratic reforms. My governme governme governme governme