:00:03. > :00:13.France and Italy. Now on BBC News, it is time for
:00:13. > :00:14.
:00:14. > :00:19.HARDtalk. The European Union's formative
:00:19. > :00:24.years were shaped by a Franco- German motor. Could it be that when
:00:24. > :00:30.the EU Imogen's from his prolonged debt crisis, a German-Polish
:00:30. > :00:34.partnership may play a dominant role? Poland's economy is growing,
:00:34. > :00:39.as its its diplomatic ambitions, so it is sniffy CAD that the Polish
:00:39. > :00:44.Foreign Minister has backed in Germany's vision. -- it is
:00:44. > :00:54.significant. But do polls really want to cede their hard-won
:00:54. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:27.sovereignty to Brussels and Berlin? Welcome to HARDtalk. In the post-
:01:27. > :01:30.communist years, it is fair to say that Poland's number one foreign
:01:30. > :01:39.policy priority was the alliance with the US. You seem intent on
:01:39. > :01:45.changing that. The US is still important in the area of security,
:01:45. > :01:51.our most important ally. But the European Union is a much more
:01:51. > :01:57.intimate relationship because it encompasses all areas, or areas of
:01:57. > :02:04.public activity. You described Germany as Poland's friend and ally
:02:04. > :02:07.above all. Britain is also very important to us. But Britain is not
:02:07. > :02:13.a neighbour. It was very nice of you in your introduction to say
:02:13. > :02:18.that Poland has an ambitious foreign policy, and it is true that
:02:18. > :02:23.we have a history, we were Communist for 400 years, with other
:02:23. > :02:28.countries, we had a history of successful feudalism, and with
:02:28. > :02:34.other countries, we think we have ideas to contribute to the future
:02:34. > :02:42.of Europe. You are by far the biggest of the relatively new
:02:42. > :02:47.member states in the EU. When you said, one year ago, in Berlin, when
:02:47. > :02:50.you said quiet, I fear German power less than I feared German
:02:50. > :02:55.inactivity, that made enormous waves right around the Continent.
:02:55. > :03:02.You appear to be giving the signal that you wanted Germany to seize
:03:02. > :03:09.the reins, to guide and direct the future of Europe. We wanted Germany
:03:09. > :03:13.to take action on saving the eurozone, to lead on reforms. Since
:03:13. > :03:19.then, there have been several packages to help Greece, while at
:03:19. > :03:25.the same time, encouraging Greece to carry out reforms, and we may
:03:25. > :03:30.now be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. The survival of the
:03:30. > :03:34.eurozone is in the vital interests of even non members. To put it
:03:34. > :03:38.crudely, you wanted Germany to get its wallet out, that he understood
:03:38. > :03:42.that in getting its wallet out, in underpinning the European economy
:03:42. > :03:49.and going down the track of their sharing, which in the long run
:03:49. > :03:53.Germany will have you do, you recognise that Germany will want to
:03:53. > :03:59.see the deepening of Europe's institutions, the integration of
:03:59. > :04:04.the EU in a way that has not been seen before. Germany carried out
:04:04. > :04:09.economic reforms which may Germany competitive, inside the eurozone,
:04:09. > :04:15.we can have a successful economy and an unsuccessful economy.
:04:15. > :04:19.Germany is an economically the most powerful. But the European Union is
:04:19. > :04:27.a system in which she cannot dominate. If you compare it to a
:04:27. > :04:33.company, Germany is the largest shareholder, with 13% up. You have
:04:33. > :04:37.9%, we have 7%, on any important issue, you need a coalition of
:04:37. > :04:43.shareholders to get anything done. But the biggest beneficiary and the
:04:43. > :04:48.biggest shareholder, Germany, has the biggest responsibility.
:04:48. > :04:54.talking about Germany be way you have, the indispensable power, you
:04:54. > :04:59.have upset a number of people in Poland. The leader of the
:04:59. > :05:04.Conservative Party that you work proposing a subjugated role that
:05:04. > :05:11.threatened Polish independence. He said you were opening the way for a
:05:11. > :05:17.forthright. We have Euro-sceptics and Poland as well. They are
:05:17. > :05:26.sometimes quite emotional. But I see a resounding office in
:05:26. > :05:31.Parliament with a constitutional majority. There is a lot of hostile
:05:32. > :05:38.rhetoric about Europe. Both in Poland and in Britain. It does not
:05:39. > :05:42.help to build good solutions. We have a crisis and we need
:05:42. > :05:47.institutional arrangements that will work, and that kind of
:05:47. > :05:51.rhetoric is not helpful. But what we have is a nation that has
:05:51. > :05:55.escaped the yoke of Soviet communism, which appeared to be
:05:55. > :06:00.fiercely proud of its independence within the European Union, and like
:06:00. > :06:06.Britain, was very and fantasist in his view of how Europe should work,
:06:06. > :06:12.and yet you have thrown all of that over for an alliance with Germany,
:06:12. > :06:18.which appears to be all about creating, more Europe, a feudal
:06:18. > :06:24.Europe. Is that what you really want? You cannot compare the
:06:24. > :06:28.European Union would our subjugation under the Soviet system.
:06:28. > :06:33.But many Poles think the greatest achievement of throwing off the
:06:33. > :06:40.Soviet Communist rule was achieving genuine independence, and sovereign
:06:40. > :06:44.independence. We still had it. In the European Union, we can
:06:44. > :06:54.voluntarily applied to the EU and be admitted, we applied, we were
:06:54. > :06:57.
:06:57. > :07:01.rejected first, and then we were admitted after a referendum. We
:07:01. > :07:06.hold some aspects of state security for the greatest benefit for all
:07:06. > :07:11.members. Both Britain and Poland ceded the sovereign power to
:07:11. > :07:16.negotiate treaties with the European Commission. We are much
:07:16. > :07:22.richer for it, because Europe as a whole can negotiate with the United
:07:22. > :07:31.States, with China... as an equal. Neither Britain nor Poland could do
:07:31. > :07:35.that a loan. That is an achievement that stands. The point is that you,
:07:35. > :07:40.alongside your new best friend, the German Foreign Minister, want to go
:07:40. > :07:45.much further. He issued a joint declaration calling for a directly
:07:45. > :07:50.elected European President, an end to national veto power, in a whole
:07:50. > :07:55.host of important areas, you want to see fiscal as well as monetary
:07:55. > :08:00.union, you want to see a European Monetary Fund, and you want to see
:08:00. > :08:04.an evolution towards a European military capability. In all of
:08:04. > :08:10.these areas, it is not a question of pulling the sovereign tree in
:08:10. > :08:15.trade and economic areas, you want to go much further. In the words of
:08:15. > :08:20.the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, we want to be a superpower.
:08:20. > :08:25.In the end, the European Union is not just about trade, it is about
:08:25. > :08:29.politics, maintaining the influence of us, the West, in a world in
:08:29. > :08:39.which is becoming a smaller proportion, -- in which we are
:08:39. > :08:43.becoming. We can still be very rich, but unless we stick together, we
:08:43. > :08:49.cannot maintain the implements that our wealth and our population
:08:49. > :08:53.entitles us to. Without wishing to sound rude, I am tempted to ask
:08:53. > :09:01.where you have been the last few years. Have you been watching
:09:01. > :09:06.Polish public opinion, which at the moment seems deeply sceptical, it
:09:06. > :09:12.seems deeply sceptical about joining the euro. We had just won a
:09:12. > :09:18.general election, and the euro has already been discussed in Poland.
:09:18. > :09:25.It was part of our treaty to the EU, and we had a referendum on it. We
:09:26. > :09:33.are treaty applies to to join. What am remains is the time and rate of
:09:33. > :09:37.exchange. To the end of this Polish parliament, we will fulfil did --
:09:37. > :09:42.fulfil the criteria, and in the next Parliament, provided the
:09:42. > :09:46.eurozone sort itself out, we will be ready to join. Your own
:09:46. > :09:51.government is saying that you will meet the conditions for entry by 20
:09:51. > :10:00.beat Dean, so are you saying there is some doubt that you will fulfil
:10:00. > :10:04.your obligation? -- by 2015. It has to be a meeting of minds and
:10:04. > :10:10.circumstances. While the eurozone is in turmoil, it is not a good
:10:10. > :10:18.time to join. But you want to go much further. Serious mistakes were
:10:18. > :10:22.made. The problem was that the treaty on growth and stability
:10:22. > :10:28.relied on the goodwill of member states, and the treaty was breached
:10:28. > :10:33.60 times. That is why I believed the problem in the eurozone is at
:10:33. > :10:38.court a problem with governance. That is why we need to go further
:10:38. > :10:43.with integration, so that crisis like that are prevented. We hope
:10:43. > :10:48.that Britain will help us, with his genius for building institutions,
:10:48. > :10:53.will help us to create solid European institutions. This is
:10:53. > :11:00.where I find a very confusing message, on the one hand you are
:11:00. > :11:03.saying that you see Europe's future in much more profound integration,
:11:03. > :11:08.even a United States of Europe are your long-term vision, and at the
:11:08. > :11:18.same time, you back away from Poland's specific commitment to
:11:18. > :11:19.
:11:20. > :11:24.join the euro. You suggest that the EU has made fundamental mistakes.
:11:24. > :11:29.We have not fulfilled the criteria yet. As soon as we have, we will
:11:29. > :11:35.make a judgement as to whether the eurozone is ready to have asked.
:11:35. > :11:44.Poland's position is different from Britain's. We had a delegation, in
:11:44. > :11:47.time, we have an opt-out. We will ratified the fiscal treaty and we
:11:47. > :11:53.will have the right to be included in those discussions which concern
:11:53. > :12:00.the future of the eurozone, because we will one day be part of it.
:12:00. > :12:05.There is also a discussion about a banking union. Should I take that
:12:05. > :12:13.you are an enthusiastic supporter of a banking union? Under the right
:12:13. > :12:18.conditions. We have very effective banks to position -- very effective
:12:19. > :12:24.bank supervision. As you say yourself, our economy has
:12:24. > :12:32.cumulatively grown by 18% in the last four years, average for
:12:32. > :12:36.Britain, but for the EU as a whole, is 0%. That may be why your finance
:12:36. > :12:45.minister, he said, we are not interested in joining a banking
:12:45. > :12:50.union. He said we were not happy with the initial proposals. As our
:12:50. > :13:00.banking supervision is very sound, over 60% of bank assets are foreign
:13:00. > :13:06.owned. We have to make sure that the subsidiaries are treated fairly
:13:06. > :13:11.and that we also have some authority over it. I understand
:13:11. > :13:15.that from what we have discussed, your ambition is profound when it
:13:15. > :13:18.comes to the picture of the EU. How are you going to get around the
:13:18. > :13:23.fact that for the fundamental changes that you want to see happen,
:13:23. > :13:29.the states that are more sceptical, I am thinking about the UK, there
:13:29. > :13:36.are objections will have to be overcome. At the moment, profound
:13:36. > :13:40.treaty change requires unanimity. They are discussing a new budget
:13:40. > :13:47.and it cannot happen without the acquiescence of all nations,
:13:47. > :13:51.including the UK. They insist on a freeze in the EU budget. Do you
:13:51. > :13:56.think it is acceptable for one nation to dictate that? Let's take
:13:56. > :14:02.it apart. We would like to have Britain on board because Britain is
:14:02. > :14:07.an important country, an important garden -- guard of the liberal
:14:07. > :14:15.rules within the Common Market. But I would like you to get one thing
:14:15. > :14:21.absolutely straight, we agree with the ambition to have a freeze in
:14:21. > :14:31.real terms, if this is what the British Government want to achieve,
:14:31. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:39.it is achievable. This Budget ends in 2013. If you take the 2013
:14:39. > :14:43.Budget proposal as the base, add the inflation, that is exactly the
:14:43. > :14:49.commission's proposal. What the British position is different.
:14:49. > :14:58.Britain wants to take as the base, the multi- annual budget, a single
:14:59. > :15:07.annual budget, and an artificially low one in 2011 and lock it in.
:15:07. > :15:17.That amounts to a very drastic cut. It is of 200 billion. This is why
:15:17. > :15:19.
:15:19. > :15:25.Far won't get too technical about the Budget that I've raised that
:15:25. > :15:31.because it's the most pressing case of how the EU makes decisions. The
:15:31. > :15:38.way currently makes decisions, the UK has the right to veto the future
:15:38. > :15:43.budget. It's a multi- Annual budget. They end under the treaty, we will
:15:43. > :15:49.have an annual budget and that will be converted by a qualified vote
:15:49. > :15:55.and what will happen is very technical. This is important. The
:15:55. > :16:01.National rebate is undermined. Holland is the fourth largest
:16:01. > :16:07.contributor to that British rebate. The Polish. The actual budget will
:16:07. > :16:12.be bigger than the Commission proposal. It's the last Budget plus
:16:12. > :16:15.the inflation. He fewer are indeed with the Germans moving the
:16:15. > :16:21.European Union forward in that profound way you will have to
:16:21. > :16:26.overcome the logjam decision making process. I was struck by something
:16:27. > :16:33.you said in Oxford recently. He said, a direct message to the UK,
:16:33. > :16:39.please don't expect us to help you wreck all paralysed the EU. Does
:16:39. > :16:44.that mean you foresee a future where frankly, if the British
:16:45. > :16:49.continue to use locking procedures and to veto that, they will have to
:16:49. > :16:52.leave the European Union? British people and the British
:16:52. > :16:57.Government are the best judges of your national interests. We would
:16:57. > :17:03.be sorry to lose you we have been friends and allies the years. We
:17:03. > :17:09.would like to have you contributing. I think it's important to explain
:17:09. > :17:13.to the British people, firstly the economic advantages of the EU and
:17:13. > :17:19.the political ones for example. We're just imposed tougher
:17:19. > :17:24.sanctions on Iran which are having an effect. Britain alone could not
:17:24. > :17:32.do that. The EU is a force multiplier for everyone. We can do
:17:32. > :17:38.things we cannot do on our own. Foreign Savell, the US a tells
:17:38. > :17:42.Britain that you are more valuable as an ally and a member of the EU
:17:42. > :17:46.because you can affect decisions made in that here you because in
:17:47. > :17:51.the end it's about the distribution of power and influence. You know
:17:51. > :17:56.Britain very well, you were educated at Oxford. You have many
:17:57. > :18:02.friends in senior political circles. You acknowledge that the European
:18:02. > :18:07.Union you want to create, we did speak about at in detail, the
:18:07. > :18:14.fiscal union, foreign policy, political power, the European army,
:18:14. > :18:19.this vision you have, cannot happen with Britain on board given that
:18:19. > :18:23.Britain's current political temperament is that agreed? Tony
:18:23. > :18:29.Blair thought that creating a European superpower was a good goal.
:18:29. > :18:34.David Cameron has said creating Britain as a kind of offshore
:18:34. > :18:39.Switzerland would be contrary to the British national interest. What
:18:39. > :18:43.I like to see. The thing you can change the mind the British public?
:18:43. > :18:48.You will and the Germans, do you think you can make these arguments
:18:48. > :18:51.loudly enough you can turn what is roughly two-thirds of the British
:18:51. > :18:57.population at believes leaving the union most maybe the most sensible
:18:57. > :19:04.thing? It would be much better if British politicians made a
:19:04. > :19:07.patriotic argument about be usefulness of the EU to Britain. We
:19:07. > :19:11.believe and I believe that your interests and trade partners and
:19:11. > :19:18.political interests lie within Europe and we can achieve much more
:19:18. > :19:23.together. Let's talk about one aspect of the Polish strategic
:19:23. > :19:26.position which I hinted at, the Changing nation of the new
:19:26. > :19:32.relationship with the United States. To focus more attention on the
:19:32. > :19:36.future of Europe, the EU think you've been deeply disappointed by
:19:36. > :19:42.the relationship with the United States and Barack Obama has gone?
:19:42. > :19:49.Actually, since last week, for the first time, we have a permanent
:19:49. > :19:54.present of US troops in Polish ground and we have aspired to that.
:19:54. > :19:59.Barack Obama or authorised contingency plans for the defence
:19:59. > :20:05.of central Europe and NATO. In a sense, you are correct, it's not
:20:05. > :20:11.there is less of the United States in Poland but there's more of the
:20:11. > :20:17.European Union. That here you, particularly on continent, is a
:20:17. > :20:20.very intimate relationship and thrust the fact that the Polish-
:20:20. > :20:26.German border and was fourth over for years, now we barely notice it
:20:26. > :20:32.as you drive across without any passport. That's a revolutionary
:20:32. > :20:39.change. We don't want to return to the politics of the 20th century
:20:39. > :20:45.because we have suffered more. Specific week, about President
:20:45. > :20:51.Obama, it's fair to say that you felt betrayed when he made a U-turn
:20:51. > :20:57.and broke the portion bit astray she commitment to key elements of
:20:57. > :21:02.the missile defence system. signed an annex to that agreement.
:21:02. > :21:08.The new Configuration of that system which is due to be built
:21:08. > :21:13.starting in 2015 and completed by 2018 is a much better system for
:21:13. > :21:21.the defence of Europe. The Bush proposal was a preferred site of
:21:21. > :21:24.the American system. This poll and want its own system? The every
:21:24. > :21:29.country has some component and we will build one of the components
:21:29. > :21:36.that can be linked to the joint NATO system. This is what Robert
:21:36. > :21:41.Gates wrote. This has what he said when he left his post as the
:21:41. > :21:45.Defence Secretary, he said NATO has been a pillar of the Polish
:21:45. > :21:51.security strategy for a long time and the blunt reality is this a
:21:51. > :21:55.dwindling appetite of the US to expand and spend funds on behalf of
:21:55. > :21:58.nations such as European NATO members that are at unwilling to
:21:58. > :22:05.devote the necessary resources to be serious partners in their own
:22:05. > :22:09.defence? I'm afraid that that's a call to maintain the defence
:22:09. > :22:17.expenditure. Britain and the Polish people are amongst the leaders.
:22:17. > :22:22.This NATO in crisis? Is it the relevant? As a former Defence
:22:22. > :22:27.Minister I know how long it takes to build up the capabilities. To
:22:27. > :22:32.procure major defence systems and that takes about a decade so I will
:22:32. > :22:41.join the call to all of the NATO allies to maintain their spending
:22:41. > :22:46.at about 2% of the GDP. Does NATO feel irrelevant? We had just
:22:47. > :22:50.carried out an operation in Libya and we have had growing trouble in
:22:51. > :22:56.Afghanistan and hopefully we will leave the Afghan government in
:22:56. > :23:01.charge. Major has evolved. The Soviet opinion is no longer with us.
:23:01. > :23:06.I love those words. There is no it existential challenge. The Soviet
:23:06. > :23:10.Union is no longer with us but Vladimir Putin is very much with
:23:10. > :23:13.you and you personally seen to be involved in an effort to warm the
:23:13. > :23:20.relationships between the Polish people and the Russians. Is that a
:23:20. > :23:28.good policy given the way we see him running Russia? As we saying
:23:28. > :23:32.Holland, you cannot choose your neighbours. We have reconciled with
:23:32. > :23:36.Germany and we are working towards reconciliation with Russia. There's
:23:36. > :23:44.been good declarations on the part of the church leaders about the
:23:44. > :23:49.crimes of the past. We have a working relationship. He also seems
:23:49. > :23:54.you've won a reduction in the Russian gas price? That is
:23:54. > :23:59.important that God gave the Russians oil and gas. The way he
:23:59. > :24:04.runs his own country and interferes with others. We have a commercial
:24:04. > :24:11.relationship. We export a lot to Russia and we have to negotiation