:00:04. > :00:14.operation. Egypt have called for a ceasefire. Now it is time for
:00:14. > :00:14.
:00:14. > :00:20.HARDtalk. My guest today is the original tree hunger. The phrase
:00:20. > :00:26.was coined back in the 1970s when she along with a group of women in
:00:26. > :00:31.India hugged trees to stop them being chopped down. Vandana Shiva
:00:31. > :00:37.has become known throughout the world for environmental campaigns.
:00:37. > :00:43.She says 1 billion people go hungry in the world because of the way
:00:43. > :00:47.about naive world view or could we end
:00:47. > :00:57.poverty and improve everyone's life by returning to old ways of
:00:57. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:23.Vandana Shiva, welcome to HARDtalk. My pleasure to be here. You have
:01:23. > :01:28.said that when people are pushed into poverty rather than, as many
:01:28. > :01:36.in the West prison, are lying there needing a rope to pull them out,
:01:36. > :01:45.what do you mean by that? First, on the tree-hugging, I want to clarify
:01:45. > :01:51.the tie was a young student volunteer. No one had to hug trees.
:01:51. > :01:56.The woman said we would and did it have to be killed. This was deeply
:01:56. > :02:03.connected to the issue of how poverty is created. Those logging
:02:03. > :02:09.operations were creating revenue so there was more money but it left
:02:09. > :02:14.less water, less for other, less fuel. Women bear the responsibility
:02:14. > :02:21.for that. They were walking extra miles to fetch water. They said
:02:21. > :02:26.that enough was enough. Poverty is created each time this a viable
:02:26. > :02:31.base of people, especially women, is destroyed. Each time a life is
:02:31. > :02:35.destroyed. Each time resources are grabbed. Is your argument that at
:02:35. > :02:41.international companies took their greedy hands of things that
:02:41. > :02:48.families, people in India, would be able to feed themselves? Would be
:02:48. > :02:56.fine? They are two big issues related to India's contemporary
:02:56. > :03:01.context. We have high levels of cruelty. If people were doing
:03:01. > :03:06.better, they would not be fighting every time their land has grabbed.
:03:06. > :03:11.One of the biggest political issues is land grabbing. The land of small
:03:11. > :03:16.farmers, and no one can be a big far more in England because of land
:03:16. > :03:22.reforms after independence, average land holdings are less than two
:03:22. > :03:27.hectare us. -- India. That is when it comes from. When you lose that
:03:27. > :03:31.and it is grab, that is poverty. You have been running a campaign
:03:32. > :03:41.for seed freedom. You talk about the way people are enslaved by the
:03:42. > :03:43.
:03:43. > :03:53.imagined when I was doing my P.H. D that I would spend so much of my
:03:53. > :03:54.
:03:54. > :03:58.time looking at the issue of seed, agriculture, land use. I started in
:03:58. > :04:03.the Movement for seed saving. I realised that corporations wanted
:04:03. > :04:08.to patent seeds. Patents are granted for inventions. Seeds are
:04:08. > :04:13.not invented. The only reason you take a patent is to collect
:04:13. > :04:19.royalties. That means that Sid is renewable by its very nature is
:04:19. > :04:22.made non-renewable. You see the consequences of this in India.
:04:22. > :04:29.Since the big companies came in and took over seed supply, especially
:04:29. > :04:35.in cotton, 270,000 farmers are committed suicide. Most of them are
:04:35. > :04:41.driven by debt. The dead is caused by high cost, non-renewable seeds.
:04:41. > :04:48.-- the debt. You are blaming the seed companies for those suicides?
:04:48. > :04:54.I am not involved in the blame game. I am first and foremost a scientist.
:04:54. > :05:00.I had done the studies. The correlations a clear. But the
:05:00. > :05:05.suicides predate the introduction? A few suicides will always take
:05:05. > :05:10.place in a society. Look at Spain since the crisis and the for
:05:10. > :05:17.closures, how many people come up lost their homes have committed
:05:17. > :05:25.suicide? The Government of India keeps track of farmers' suicides.
:05:25. > :05:29.The graph starts to climb. It starts in 1997. Everyone accepts
:05:29. > :05:36.that there is a big problem with suicides and farmers. The numbers,
:05:36. > :05:40.whichever way you look... It began in 1997, 1998. It I would imagine
:05:40. > :05:45.that you would accept that there are many reasons for farmers being
:05:45. > :05:52.under pressure. Many people would challenger's suggestion that it is
:05:52. > :05:56.down to the multinational companies. -- would challenge your suggestion.
:05:56. > :06:03.Why are farmers trapped in dead when they were not earlier? There
:06:04. > :06:10.are getting into debt for seed, chemicals because the seed are not
:06:10. > :06:17.controlling pests. Our studies show an increase in pesticide use in the
:06:17. > :06:27.area with the highest suicide rates. 8,000 % increase in the price of
:06:27. > :06:27.
:06:27. > :06:32.seats. Farmers have always had to buy seed. No. That is the issue.
:06:32. > :06:36.Seed has always been a renewable resource. Particularly in the hands
:06:36. > :06:44.of women farmers. They were the bidders, the Conservatives. They
:06:44. > :06:50.were the custodians of seed. -- breeders, concern over his. This
:06:50. > :06:58.begins with the World Trade Organisation. The argument for the
:06:58. > :07:03.patenting is that a company like Monsanto, they make the point that
:07:04. > :07:08.what they are doing is adding value. The yield on the seeds is much
:07:08. > :07:12.higher. They say no business can survive without being paid for its
:07:12. > :07:16.product. The loss of revenue would hinder their ability to invest in
:07:16. > :07:22.research and development to create new products that farmers want.
:07:22. > :07:31.They are investing $2.6 million per day creating new products to bring
:07:31. > :07:39.to the market. The farmers want this seed. There is a market for it.
:07:39. > :07:46.Firstly, I was puzzled, why are performers using the products of
:07:46. > :07:51.Monsanto? The public sector, the programme stops when a giant like
:07:51. > :07:56.Monsanto enters. The cotton research institute, one of the top
:07:56. > :08:05.and stitches in cotton, has not introduced a new variety. Are they
:08:05. > :08:13.giving us something new that has value to citizens? No one. They're
:08:13. > :08:23.offering genetically engineered products. The crop is producing a
:08:23. > :08:31.higher yield. It is not. They claim it will introduce 1,500 kilograms.
:08:31. > :08:36.doctcs. doctor who runs a gene campaign in
:08:36. > :08:42.Delhi, she is an environmentalist in many ways. She says that if the
:08:42. > :08:47.Government booted out Monsanto, it will not make the problems go away.
:08:47. > :08:51.With the success of cotton was so huge, a parliamentary committee
:08:51. > :08:55.would not after two years of deep study and talking to everyone
:08:55. > :09:00.including the Monsantos have recommended to government that this
:09:00. > :09:05.is the wrong path. If the crops were wonderful. The Government has
:09:05. > :09:09.not accepted that argument. It is a dangerous argument. You have a
:09:09. > :09:14.situation where it is widely accepted that the yields are
:09:14. > :09:21.doubled. They haven't. That is a fraud. If yields had doubled, why
:09:21. > :09:29.did farmers be in distress? yields better? No. Are they worth?
:09:29. > :09:35.They are worse if you take the overall production of a farm.
:09:35. > :09:39.Cotton has changed in India. You could have more cotton in the world,
:09:39. > :09:46.and India. You could have more cotton and the farmer's field. It
:09:46. > :09:50.does not produce more food. professor from Alabama says in the
:09:50. > :09:56.ten years since the Cotton was introduced, cotton yields have
:09:56. > :10:00.doubled in India. Cotton yields have doubled only because you don't
:10:00. > :10:06.measure the biodiversity of a basket. So you accept that, and
:10:06. > :10:13.yields have doubled. For your argument is that they have doubled
:10:13. > :10:17.but other things have suffered. is not because of the technology
:10:17. > :10:23.but because you're only growing cotton. So people who were not
:10:23. > :10:29.doing it before are now a growing it? Cotton is an Indian crop.
:10:29. > :10:35.Farmers have been growing and for centuries. This is the heart of the
:10:35. > :10:41.matter. I yield is always measured from a single crop. Output measures
:10:41. > :10:46.the whole basket full dog do you accept that yields have bubbled?
:10:46. > :10:52.Not because of the technology. The green revolution and has also
:10:52. > :10:56.claimed to have increased the yield of food. I am trying to help us
:10:56. > :11:01.fall your argument. You are accepting that yields have doubled,
:11:01. > :11:06.you accept that argument, but you are putting it down to something
:11:06. > :11:11.else. I am putting it down to replacing diversity and mixtures of
:11:11. > :11:17.crops do you grow many things to growing a single crop. It does not
:11:17. > :11:22.matter how that crop was produced. We could be beaten, it could be
:11:22. > :11:27.chemical, could be organic. That is the secret of increased yields. It
:11:27. > :11:36.is yield of a single commodity. If this was the solution to hunger in
:11:36. > :11:40.the world, why would so many people be hungry? What you have found is
:11:40. > :11:48.that as a result of the increased yields, India is now an exporter of
:11:48. > :11:56.that. It is the leading exporter in the world. Farmers are making money
:11:56. > :12:02.out of it. Yes, some have suffered. It is not true because India
:12:02. > :12:07.exported cotton during British rule. We had rights of -- riots around
:12:07. > :12:12.the price of cotton. The price has fallen even as exports have
:12:12. > :12:19.increased. More exports does not mean farmers earn more. It can
:12:19. > :12:24.often mean farmers earn less. is a huge demand for it. There is a
:12:24. > :12:29.closure of options. Why are form was only growing corn in Europe?
:12:29. > :12:34.Why are farmers in Argentina only groyne soya? This is not a
:12:34. > :12:41.reflection of choice. It is an reflection of the closure of choice.
:12:41. > :12:47.Look at Green. We know that Green, offbeat, has gone up usually when
:12:47. > :12:53.the last ten years, in fact over decades. India is now a country
:12:53. > :12:57.that is Kibble of feeding itself. You go back to the Times that you
:12:57. > :13:02.seem to be advocating a return to and it was a time when India
:13:02. > :13:07.suffered from famines, was running up huge debts to import food to be
:13:07. > :13:11.his own people. Three quick responses. There was a famine. 2
:13:11. > :13:15.million people died. It was not because of lack of rice. It was
:13:15. > :13:21.because the British Empire was extracting have the production of
:13:21. > :13:31.rice. That is why a woman came out and led a movement saying they will
:13:31. > :13:31.
:13:31. > :13:36.give their lives, not their rights. There was a call out of Bengal.
:13:36. > :13:41.Secondly, it is true that we are growing a lot more rice and a lot
:13:41. > :13:48.more heat but, exactly as in the case of cotton, this is by
:13:48. > :13:52.replacing other crops. 2 million tonnes a rotting in the barns.
:13:52. > :13:57.Every second Indian child is malnourished. Every 4th Indian is
:13:57. > :14:02.hungry, something we have not had after independence. This is all a
:14:02. > :14:06.result of it having been reduced to a commodity and being destroyed as
:14:06. > :14:16.a source of livelihood on the one hand for the farmer and a human
:14:16. > :14:17.
:14:17. > :14:26.What are you advocating? I use saying that India should go back to
:14:26. > :14:34.the farming techniques of the 1960s? -- are due. Our work of the
:14:34. > :14:39.last 25 years, since I started, the showing that we produce 2-3 times
:14:39. > :14:46.more food per acre. This has more nutrition per acre because when you
:14:46. > :14:51.grow food for nourishment, he maximise nutrition. We should have
:14:51. > :14:58.-- explain that this campaign expanse the nine seats. The whole
:14:58. > :15:06.focus on two aspects - 1, commodity production and two, chemicals are
:15:06. > :15:12.so misguided. Only 2% of the soil in the US is be eaten as food. Only
:15:12. > :15:18.8% of the colon, the rest is going for by your fuel. This is not a
:15:18. > :15:25.food system so we have to go beyond it. We need futuristic work based
:15:25. > :15:31.on the time last ecological principles of war the cycles.
:15:31. > :15:39.have been campaigning for a return to organic farming. It is moving
:15:39. > :15:45.ahead. Five states of India we are working with... Organic farming,
:15:45. > :15:52.even in modern system, we look at the European system, yields are put
:15:53. > :15:57.to beset Lola. We must focus on output. Output is double to trouble.
:15:57. > :16:03.Output means the full basket of what you produce on the farm. You
:16:03. > :16:07.need your oil seeds, you Deri, your fruit, your vegetables. It is a
:16:07. > :16:13.trick of reducing the output to a single year old and then claiming
:16:13. > :16:19.he produced more. Most of it goes to uses rather than fear. That is
:16:19. > :16:23.the reason we have starvation. When I am advocating is what the UN is
:16:23. > :16:27.advocating. There are reports showing there could be a threefold
:16:27. > :16:33.increase in food production through ecological methods. The
:16:33. > :16:39.international assessment of Science Technology Development, a body set
:16:39. > :16:43.up by the UN, says there is only one way to go - ecological.
:16:43. > :16:52.whether the problems India now has, you look at where it has come from
:16:52. > :16:55.and you look at since 1991, economic reforms and we are talking
:16:55. > :17:01.about these things happening at the same time, you had the average
:17:01. > :17:08.growth of a % in that time period. This country has been doing... The
:17:08. > :17:15.rest of the world is looking on at amazement. You are so critical.
:17:15. > :17:20.Many people will think it sounds wonderful but naive. The reality of
:17:20. > :17:26.India is that a huge growth rate by we're seeing. It has come through
:17:26. > :17:32.converting people's wealth and resources into capital and riches
:17:32. > :17:37.of a handful. I would not go into too much detail on that. If India's
:17:37. > :17:42.growth rate was converting into higher food in time once, every
:17:42. > :17:49.second child would not be wasted. This is government figures,
:17:49. > :17:59.according to a survey. We can quite statistics at each other... Poverty
:17:59. > :18:03.
:18:03. > :18:10.down from 45%. It depends on how you measure poverty. If you, a fire
:18:10. > :18:20.everything, you will spend one -- he would spend more money.
:18:20. > :18:20.
:18:20. > :18:25.country has got wealthier. No. In terms of education, it depends on
:18:25. > :18:32.what you're measuring, again. Pramod education is suffering
:18:32. > :18:37.deeply. Privatise education is growing. The provide to Asian of
:18:37. > :18:45.health, food and education, these are the debates that are every day
:18:45. > :18:50.debates in a parliament, on our streets. -- privatisation. The
:18:50. > :18:56.Indian people are not doing well, if they have lost their land which
:18:56. > :19:01.fed them. They're not doing well if they're going crash crops and
:19:01. > :19:06.commodities for exports. Even the wealthy are doing badly on the food
:19:06. > :19:12.front because we have become the hearts, the epicentre, pick-up --
:19:12. > :19:20.of obesity because of junk food. I do not believe been thrown into a
:19:20. > :19:26.junk food treadmill is progress. That is also... The answer to that
:19:26. > :19:34.his education. I come back to this argument about where India has come
:19:34. > :19:40.from and where it is going to. We look at wheat production. With
:19:40. > :19:47.production rose from 10 million tonnes from the end of the 60s to
:19:47. > :19:53.85 million tonnes a now. Per year. That is a phenomenal increase. That
:19:53. > :20:02.is surely part of the answer to why the country... no. I work across
:20:02. > :20:11.the length and breadth of my ecological farms. Everywhere ago,
:20:11. > :20:17.people used to tell me that week was 1% -2 % of our diet. We had all
:20:17. > :20:26.kinds of other grains. The only source of protein for vegetarians.
:20:26. > :20:32.measured. You are from the middle classes. You don't really know what
:20:32. > :20:38.it is like. I spent the last 25 years of my life working in the
:20:38. > :20:45.farmers of India and the setting up a farm myself for research and
:20:45. > :20:50.conservation. I measured every output of every plot of land. With
:20:50. > :20:58.ecological systems, you can reduce water use, increased productivity,
:20:58. > :21:04.get rid of fossil fuels. Let's go back in a sense to you tree-hugging
:21:04. > :21:09.days, you were prepared to put your body in the way of a big company.
:21:09. > :21:14.Is that what you want Indian people to do now? We have been putting
:21:14. > :21:24.ourselves in the way. Because we had this movement, our laws
:21:24. > :21:24.
:21:24. > :21:27.recognise that farmers have rights. And the aim of the Supreme Court,
:21:27. > :21:32.or the suggestion by of one committee, they could be a ban on
:21:32. > :21:42.GM foods. There is already a ban because two years ago, Monsanto
:21:42. > :21:51.
:21:51. > :21:56.tried to push an eggplant. Who does it come down to? It has to be
:21:56. > :22:01.democracy. Democracy means people give direction to government to
:22:01. > :22:07.regulate companies. That is how democracies are supposed to work.
:22:07. > :22:15.It is not for the corporation -- corporations. D one people to take
:22:15. > :22:25.part in direct action? Do you want them to take -- break the law.
:22:25. > :22:25.
:22:25. > :22:33.learned from grantee. That bad laws must be broken. We follow him to
:22:33. > :22:37.save patterns are a fraud on earth, biodiversity and future generations.
:22:37. > :22:42.What do you want people to do? We want people to constantly
:22:42. > :22:48.reproduced, Exchange and saved seas. Any law anywhere that treats that
:22:48. > :22:54.as a crime and diversity as a crime, is worthy of disobeying. And those
:22:54. > :22:59.farmers who have signed agreements sane they were not read use NEC's,
:22:59. > :23:03.you say break that? The problem is so many farmers will have not
:23:03. > :23:11.signed the agreement are being criminalised in a Europe because
:23:11. > :23:20.they are growing diversity. There is a New York, 2010 which I am
:23:20. > :23:25.calling for the Europeans are not to co-operate with. Is it not too
:23:25. > :23:31.late for India? It not at all. We are way ahead in the defence of the
:23:31. > :23:37.freedom of seed, in the defence of biodiversity, and the defence of
:23:37. > :23:40.freedom for farmers. Do you seriously believe you can get to
:23:41. > :23:47.the point way you would not have multinational companies who have
:23:47. > :23:52.patented seats, and you do not have GM foods in India? We do not have