:00:14. > :00:17.cause to unimaginable terror. For more than 40 years, Greenpeace
:00:17. > :00:21.has campaigned against environmental degradation. This
:00:21. > :00:30.month it is mobilising its activists to make a stand on saving
:00:30. > :00:36.the planet at the UN climate change conference. Is anyone listening to
:00:36. > :00:40.what they have to say? My Guest is Kumi Naidoo, executive director of
:00:40. > :00:50.Greenpeace International. Does the organisation need a new vision to
:00:50. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:16.make an impact, and if so, what is Kumi Naidoo, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:16. > :01:22.Thank you. Climate change is very much on the back burner. That might
:01:22. > :01:28.reflect a failure by Greenpeace, doesn't it? Climate change is now
:01:28. > :01:33.being talked about much more than it ever has. But it is still too
:01:33. > :01:39.little, too late, to be perfectly honest. We're winning important
:01:39. > :01:46.battles, but we are losing the war. The reality is, if we follow what
:01:46. > :01:51.he signs says we are not acting fast enough. Important players are
:01:52. > :01:55.not getting involved. We need to keep momentum and actually kit
:01:55. > :02:00.political leaders to recognise that nature does not negotiate. We
:02:00. > :02:05.cannot change the science, we have to change the politics. When you
:02:05. > :02:13.say, not winning fast enough and a lot of talk, but no real action,
:02:13. > :02:18.can I say that it is more extreme than that? The International Energy
:02:18. > :02:26.Agency has said that climate change is slipping down the agenda. Why is
:02:26. > :02:31.it happening? When we say we are failing on climate change, who look
:02:31. > :02:35.we're failing. We are failing our children and Grinch children.
:02:35. > :02:43.you've except that Greenpeace is responsible for the collective
:02:43. > :02:47.failure? Absolutely. So long as we have not got an allegiance to
:02:48. > :02:57.recognise that life on this planet is threatened. We have not been
:02:58. > :02:59.
:02:59. > :03:09.good enough. Why is Greenpeace failing to make it very loud voice
:03:09. > :03:16.and high media profile message through? Is the message confused?
:03:16. > :03:21.Had come from a background of human rights activism. If you are dealing
:03:21. > :03:25.with poverty, you can take a camera and show homeless people or
:03:25. > :03:30.children starving to get your understanding immediately. With
:03:30. > :03:34.human rights, it is the same. You can show pictures of torture. The
:03:34. > :03:43.difficulties with climate change is that you cannot. Atkins and people
:03:43. > :03:50.get it. It is an accumulative problem. You cannot show carbon as
:03:50. > :03:54.a result of burning oil and gas. The enemy that is holding us back,
:03:54. > :03:58.and the one to use the word enemy quite deliberately, because when
:03:58. > :04:04.you look at United States they are one of the countries that carries
:04:04. > :04:08.the biggest responsibility and there is not enough movement. I
:04:08. > :04:13.jokingly say that the United States is the best democracy that money
:04:13. > :04:19.can buy. When you look at where the money comes from, for every member
:04:19. > :04:24.of Congress there are three full- time lobbyists, up to seven. They
:04:24. > :04:28.are aided by the oil and gas industry. They want to make sure
:04:28. > :04:32.that no progressive climate legislation is passed. You say the
:04:32. > :04:39.enemy is the United States? Know, the enemy is the oil and gas
:04:39. > :04:46.companies. Not only in the US, but in Canada and the parts of the
:04:46. > :04:54.world. They are beholden to the interests of will and gas. Also,
:04:54. > :04:57.South Africa. It depends on coal. Absolutely. I want to continue with
:04:57. > :05:04.Greenpeace and its role and why your message is resonating with
:05:04. > :05:10.people. But you have been giving it for more than 40 years. You use a
:05:10. > :05:12.very all-encompassing language. For example, in May this year, you said
:05:12. > :05:17.that you're winning strategic battles but you are losing the
:05:17. > :05:26.planet. That is a massive statement. People cannot get their head around
:05:26. > :05:32.it. Unless people understand the enormity of what we're facing, and
:05:32. > :05:35.yes it is a big issue, but what we are facing is big. We're talking
:05:35. > :05:43.about climate change destroying large parts of this planet. Right
:05:43. > :05:51.now in Africa, we are seeing impact that are taking lives. 400,000
:05:51. > :06:00.lives being lost every year. It looks like just another ethnic
:06:00. > :06:06.conflict. Use it when you talk about other rights, it is much
:06:06. > :06:10.harder because it is more gradual. Are you not responsible for that,
:06:10. > :06:18.because you are using open statements? Let me develop that
:06:18. > :06:21.thought. You used very negative language. You said, may be what
:06:21. > :06:27.will wake us up is that we are talking about a dramatic increase
:06:27. > :06:30.in catastrophic weather effects. Water shortages, the collapse of
:06:30. > :06:36.agricultural systems, millions of climate refugees from Africa
:06:36. > :06:41.heading for Europe. This is happening already. Is that a
:06:41. > :06:47.responsible statement? All these Africans coming to Europe. Is that
:06:47. > :06:55.a responsible statement? What is responsible is to speak the truth.
:06:55. > :07:00.Even when it is not popular. you are trying to scare people.
:07:00. > :07:04.it is the truth and if people want to be scared by it, then by all
:07:04. > :07:10.means, get scared by it. We cannot censor the reality of what we're
:07:10. > :07:15.seeing. When I look at the work we're doing in the Democratic
:07:15. > :07:24.Republic of the Congo, or what is happening to oceans in West Africa,
:07:24. > :07:28.where fishing is taking the wealth of the oceans, these are scary
:07:28. > :07:38.things that are happening. It is not Greenpeace that is saying that
:07:38. > :07:40.
:07:40. > :07:43.migration is going to happen. makes you think that these tactics,
:07:43. > :07:52.think about the Fukushima disaster, that did not turn the world of
:07:52. > :08:02.nuclear power. I can quote to six countries since Fukushima. Italy
:08:02. > :08:08.has a referendum. Switzerland, the United Arab Emirates, Germany.
:08:08. > :08:16.look at what they are replacing it with. Take Germany. What are they
:08:17. > :08:21.replacing it with? Germany today is the first country in the world that
:08:21. > :08:28.is reaching the point of the majority of its energy coming from
:08:28. > :08:37.renewable sources. Greenpeace is not saying... But to have countries
:08:37. > :08:45.in Africa that is building nuclear reactors. Do scaremongering tactics,
:08:45. > :08:50.that kind of negative message, does it actually work? I do not think it
:08:50. > :08:56.is scaremongering. We talk about solutions a lot of the time. The
:08:56. > :09:01.media chooses to pick up on the more high-profile actions that we
:09:01. > :09:10.take. Most of their work is not what is for trade in the quibble
:09:10. > :09:19.media. -- portrayed in the global media. We're building alliances
:09:19. > :09:21.with trade union leaders. We are looking at an alliance. But the
:09:21. > :09:28.high-profile media campaigns you are renowned for are deliberately
:09:28. > :09:38.done to catch the eye of the media. And now you are blaming us for
:09:38. > :09:42.covering that? To be absolutely wanted coverage. We have a solution
:09:42. > :09:50.called the energy revolution. We're implementing it in different
:09:51. > :09:54.countries. How countries based on energy efficiencies and serious
:09:54. > :10:04.investment by 2015, we can wean ourselves of our dependence of
:10:04. > :10:09.
:10:09. > :10:14.fossil fuels and nuclear. But it is not what penetrates. I think
:10:14. > :10:19.speaking the truth, saying how serious things were. I am a father.
:10:19. > :10:26.I am concerned about my daughter and all the children in my life. My
:10:26. > :10:33.niece and nephews. What is at stake here is absolutely fundamental. It
:10:33. > :10:38.is more fundamental than every other challenge. That goes back to
:10:38. > :10:42.what we were saying at the beginning. The message is confusing.
:10:42. > :10:50.Even if you accept the message on global warming and that we have to
:10:50. > :10:55.take some action, you have got to fix up the picture. Looking again
:10:55. > :10:59.at the tactics. You say that we in the media focus on the high profile
:10:59. > :11:07.campaigns. What happened in August this year when you enter another
:11:08. > :11:14.campaigner were arrested when you went on an oil rig? You got
:11:14. > :11:24.arrested. You wanted us to pay attention to that. That was last
:11:24. > :11:27.
:11:27. > :11:32.year. You had a busy August this year. We have a philosophy from the
:11:32. > :11:38.early days. If there is an environmental crime that is
:11:38. > :11:45.happening, we need to get out there, documented, draw global attention
:11:45. > :11:52.to it. Even if it is committing an illegal act. Absolutely. All
:11:52. > :11:56.struggles. Mahatma Gandhi was below five and thrown in prison. Nelson
:11:56. > :12:00.Mandela, Martin Luther King. History teaches us that when
:12:00. > :12:05.humanity is faced by a terrible injustice or challenge, those
:12:05. > :12:14.struggles and the move forward. Decent men and women need to stand
:12:14. > :12:24.up and say enough is enough. There was a court case which Greenpeace
:12:24. > :12:24.
:12:24. > :12:32.was prevented from joining a protest. But it gives you the right,
:12:32. > :12:36.as Greenpeace, unelected officials, to do something like that? Several
:12:36. > :12:41.countries and many corporations were involved and that operation.
:12:41. > :12:46.What gives you the right to break the law on the behalf of humanity?
:12:46. > :12:51.As a young activist I got hold this all the time. Who are you, you are
:12:51. > :12:57.nobody. If they are unjust laws, if there are wars that are now illegal
:12:57. > :13:05.activity to go on, if there are laws that say environ mental
:13:05. > :13:09.destruction is OK, we have the moral responsibility that overrides
:13:09. > :13:14.and all of us who understands what is happening need to do what.
:13:14. > :13:23.people have been doing it for decades. Absolutely. Slavery was
:13:23. > :13:28.not illegal. Apartheid was not illegal. But what about Norway. It
:13:28. > :13:38.is a country that has high human rights abuse and so on. Even it is
:13:38. > :13:40.
:13:40. > :13:50.involved. Should they not be doing it either? Absolutely. Why is the
:13:50. > :13:50.
:13:50. > :13:58.Arctic important? I am an African. It is a cold place to go. But the
:13:59. > :14:04.Arctic is a refrigerator of the world. It regulates the climate.
:14:05. > :14:14.This year, while we were there, we have hit the lowest level of a
:14:14. > :14:19.pixie ice. With Hurricane Sandy, it was an additional factor. Not the
:14:19. > :14:23.only factor. But it melted. Scientists are saying that by the
:14:23. > :14:33.end of this decade if we do not act now the ice could be completely
:14:33. > :14:35.
:14:36. > :14:39.gone. We will actually be moved Those countries that are drilling
:14:39. > :14:43.have a slightly different perspective. The Premier of green
:14:43. > :14:49.land, who in response to the actions that you too, told the
:14:49. > :14:59.Financial Times they Greenpeace has succeeded in impeding Greenland's
:14:59. > :15:00.
:15:00. > :15:05.occupation -- opportunity for securing the future of green land's
:15:05. > :15:08.people. There is a right for economic development. Even the
:15:08. > :15:16.communities involved are saying that we accept this kind of
:15:16. > :15:21.development. It is all right. Why should you think differently?
:15:21. > :15:26.Greenpeace is committed to sustainable development. I am
:15:26. > :15:29.committed to eradicating poverty. I believe it can happen in a way that
:15:29. > :15:35.takes people out of poverty but does not need to put people in
:15:35. > :15:39.deeper poverty by destroying the environment. Environmental
:15:39. > :15:47.destruction impacts on poor people much more than it does on rich
:15:47. > :15:51.people. Rich people can jump in their cars and drive away. But the
:15:51. > :15:55.point that I am trying to make, as executive director of Greenpeace
:15:55. > :16:02.International, is that the shock tactics which are embodied in your
:16:02. > :16:10.emission statement. -- mission statement, civil disobedience, are
:16:10. > :16:15.not illegal acts. These tactics that they use deny you a place
:16:15. > :16:19.inside the tent, a way you can be engaging with governments, with
:16:19. > :16:28.corporations, and trying to influence the debate from within,
:16:28. > :16:33.rather than being a rebel voice. The reality is that anybody,
:16:33. > :16:37.anywhere on the streets of any country, you ask them what speeds
:16:37. > :16:43.the loudest, and they will say that actions have -- speaks louder than
:16:43. > :16:48.words. We have been talking and talking and negotiating. We are
:16:49. > :16:52.inside all those forums. What about the one in France that is going to
:16:52. > :17:00.talk about energy transition. Greenpeace says they are not going
:17:00. > :17:03.to be involved. The Institute for sustainable development are going
:17:03. > :17:11.to be sitting inside these talks. But Greenpeace say that it is
:17:11. > :17:16.against their principles. We make an assessment about where but there
:17:16. > :17:24.is going to be a lot of talk and nothing is going to come out of it
:17:24. > :17:30.because of the make up. You do not know that. The irony is, the civil
:17:30. > :17:34.disobedience were, is not even 15% of what we do. Most of what we do
:17:34. > :17:40.is being in those negotiations. Look at the British Government.
:17:40. > :17:47.Greenpeace UK has been in the news because it had an undercover
:17:47. > :17:51.reporter talking to senior Conservatives, it does not see eye
:17:51. > :17:55.to eye with its Liberal Democrat partners in the government, and the
:17:55. > :18:00.idea was to try and name and shame the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
:18:00. > :18:04.George Osborne, into showing that he has gone soft in Greenpeace
:18:04. > :18:09.because it is too expensive. That is a clear example of how
:18:09. > :18:14.Greenpeace is trying to name and shame. It is not a monopoly of
:18:14. > :18:18.Greenpeace. Political leaders promise certain things in the
:18:18. > :18:24.election and they do not deliver. It is our responsibility as
:18:24. > :18:29.citizens to hold them to account and to expose them for lying and
:18:29. > :18:34.not following the truth. Especially when they are dragging their feet,
:18:34. > :18:37.and we have one-to-one meetings with various governments, I can
:18:38. > :18:42.quote you with any number of heads of state that I have met this year,
:18:43. > :18:47.and we have one-to-one meetings, they agree with us 100% that time
:18:47. > :18:57.is running out, the situation is serious and so on, but once we
:18:57. > :18:57.
:18:57. > :18:59.walked out, what we have, business as usual. You have not done
:18:59. > :19:04.anything in this investigate undercover mission that tells us
:19:04. > :19:08.anything that we did not know about the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He
:19:08. > :19:16.has reaffirmed his commitment to the Government's autumn -- energy
:19:16. > :19:20.promise. He said that we should not prize British business out of the
:19:20. > :19:27.world economy. We will not be able to achieve those goals, businesses
:19:27. > :19:32.will fail and our country will be poorer. It is blatantly wrong. He
:19:32. > :19:36.is wrong in his overall assessment and we have to call him out. Looked
:19:36. > :19:41.at how governments have responded to the financial crisis. They have
:19:41. > :19:45.tried to put one Band Aid over another band aid. What is needed is
:19:45. > :19:49.to bring the challenges of the economy, Equity, poverty and
:19:49. > :19:55.ecology together. We cannot continue to treat them as if they
:19:55. > :19:59.are different. You look at all the opinion polls. Francois Hollande
:19:59. > :20:03.made a statement after six months and says that his priority is
:20:03. > :20:08.growth and creating jobs. In the presidential election, climate
:20:09. > :20:14.change hardly featured. It is not even in the top ten. The
:20:14. > :20:16.politicians are reflecting what the people who elected them believed.
:20:16. > :20:21.The politicians in most of the dominant countries reflect what
:20:21. > :20:27.people are telling them, they reflect of the interests of the
:20:28. > :20:32.most powerful sectors of society, banks, oil, and coal companies.
:20:32. > :20:38.They are not reflecting the interests of ordinary people. The
:20:38. > :20:42.reality is the job creation potential of moving to a green
:20:42. > :20:46.economic future is significant. When we sat down with Angela Merkel,
:20:46. > :20:52.and we made the arguments, trillions of euros of taxpayers'
:20:52. > :21:00.money that goes into nucleic only generates 30,000 jobs. -- into
:21:00. > :21:05.nuclear energy. In every country around the world, we can have a
:21:05. > :21:12.double. We can have a win for jobs and a win for the Environment, if
:21:12. > :21:17.our governments invested now. is the money coming from? Look at
:21:17. > :21:21.the global fund that was set up in Copenhagen. It was supposed to have
:21:21. > :21:30.$100 billion every year to help the developing world tried to combat
:21:30. > :21:40.global warming. Not a penny in the pond. That is why you are failing,
:21:40. > :21:47.
:21:47. > :21:52.there is not the money. Let me do the two are examples. In Doha, we
:21:52. > :21:56.expect movement on the growing climate fund. It is pathetic that
:21:56. > :22:05.the resources are not available. This was supposed to be fast-track
:22:05. > :22:11.funding. It has been going on for years. Secondly, we want another
:22:11. > :22:15.cure turf. We hope that the US dynamic will shift. President Obama,
:22:15. > :22:22.sadly, for the first time in his acceptance speech, he said we have
:22:22. > :22:27.to act against the warming planet, and we hope that they will come
:22:27. > :22:34.from a slightly different position, and a recognition that we would I
:22:34. > :22:40.get into the tipping Bight. The time mind that we are on right now,
:22:40. > :22:45.if we get a binding treaty in 2020, that is too late. You want to
:22:45. > :22:50.recruit to the Pope to your cause. Not specifically the Pope, but
:22:50. > :22:54.every religion in the world, if you pick up the Bible or the Koran,
:22:54. > :22:57.there are gems of environmental wisdom. I think our religious
:22:57. > :23:02.leaders have been deafening in their silence by not standing up as
:23:02. > :23:07.strongly as they should, to speak for the Environment, which is also
:23:07. > :23:10.got's creation, and to talk about climate change. More and more of
:23:10. > :23:17.them are getting involved, but I appeal to them to get more actively
:23:17. > :23:21.involved. I know as executive director you fly all over the world,
:23:21. > :23:28.but your headquarters are in Amsterdam. The Netherlands is a
:23:28. > :23:34.nation of cyclists. What about your own green credentials? I am on my
:23:34. > :23:39.bicycle and on foot quite a lot. The important thing is the struggle
:23:39. > :23:43.for justice, whether it is environmentally justice, social
:23:43. > :23:47.justice, the struggles are not popularity contest. Those who
:23:47. > :23:51.choose to stand up and push for the struggles have to accept that you
:23:51. > :23:54.are going to be unpopular because you are going to say things that
:23:54. > :23:59.are unpopular and which suggest transformational change is
:23:59. > :24:06.necessary. Whether in Amsterdam or in Africa, the time has come for a