:00:04. > :00:14.George Entwistle. He will take up the post in March. That is it from
:00:14. > :00:16.
:00:16. > :00:23.Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk from Jerusalem. My guest
:00:23. > :00:26.today is Israel's President, Simon Peres. The last week has been
:00:26. > :00:32.dominated by a renewed confrontation between Israel and
:00:32. > :00:35.Hamas in Gaza. Sustains exchanges of fire have caused hundreds of
:00:35. > :00:41.casualties, most of them Palestinian. But the basic dynamic
:00:41. > :00:47.of the conflict appears unchanged. In a region that has been
:00:47. > :00:57.destabilised by the Arab uprisings, are Israel's leaders making wise
:00:57. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:16.President Simon Peres, and welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. What do you
:01:16. > :01:23.believe Israel has achieved with this sustained bombardment of the
:01:24. > :01:31.Gaza Strip? It was not a choice. Israel has had to respond to
:01:32. > :01:37.provocation. Because of the fact day-in and day-out they fired
:01:37. > :01:43.missiles against civilian life, schools, other things without a
:01:43. > :01:51.trace. I hear, who is winning the war? I think the real problem is
:01:51. > :02:01.who is winning the peace, not the war. Gaza is a test. In Gaza we did
:02:01. > :02:11.it unilaterally, we left Gaza in 2005. We took out our army. We took
:02:11. > :02:11.
:02:11. > :02:17.out our settlements, 20 settlements, and close to 9000 settlers. We
:02:17. > :02:23.forced them to go out of Gaza and we had to mobilise and 70,000
:02:23. > :02:28.policemen. They left Gaza, they took out the settlements and the
:02:28. > :02:33.settlers. You pulled out of Gaza and then you put military force
:02:33. > :02:40.around Gaza. Ewan short the Gazan economy could not succeed by
:02:40. > :02:45.blocking all export and many imports. It has more poverty than
:02:45. > :02:51.ten years ago. The cars and people are living in what they described
:02:51. > :02:58.as a present -- Gazan. That is the reason more than any other why
:02:58. > :03:05.Hamas has such deep roots in Gaza. -- a prison. I'm not so sure. They
:03:05. > :03:15.are using force to have deep roots. We have spent millions of dollars
:03:15. > :03:17.
:03:17. > :03:24.after we left to build a modern economy, to export strawberries for
:03:25. > :03:28.example. We gave them everything. understand that that is the Israeli
:03:28. > :03:35.position. But it seems to me the question that you have to face
:03:35. > :03:40.today as a nation is this, you can eliminate Hamas' rocket launchers,
:03:40. > :03:46.you can even assassinate a Hamas' military chiefs, but you cannot
:03:46. > :03:51.eliminate Hamas itself from Gaza. So what is the strategic objective
:03:51. > :03:57.here? We don't want to eliminate Hamas. We want to eliminate the
:03:57. > :04:03.actions and the position of Hamas, the fact they don't want to make.
:04:03. > :04:07.We are not against the people of Hamas -- make peace. Do you think
:04:07. > :04:15.by killing more than 100 people so far, including significant numbers
:04:15. > :04:21.of children and women, do you think that you are encouraging Hamas, and
:04:22. > :04:30.the people who support Hamas, to change their strategy? It does not
:04:30. > :04:36.happen unless they fire at us. Let's be fair... Hamas is firing
:04:37. > :04:42.missiles, close to several hundred per day, more or less. But what is
:04:42. > :04:47.terrible and what people don't understand is that every morning at
:04:47. > :04:52.7am/8:00am, when children go to school, every morning they fire 35
:04:52. > :04:59.missiles against children. We are better organised, we admit. Then
:04:59. > :05:07.the children go back at 3pm/4pm, another 35 missiles! What are they
:05:07. > :05:15.doing? The only thing that they are trying to censor is the bringing in
:05:15. > :05:20.of arms for long-range missiles. -- we are trying to. Why spend so much
:05:20. > :05:26.money on 10,000 missiles? On building them? As we speak right
:05:26. > :05:35.now it is uncertain whether a truce, a ceasefire, of some description
:05:35. > :05:40.can be implemented. But here's the question. If there is a pause or a
:05:40. > :05:44.truce, it is unlikely, is it not, that anything will have changed in
:05:44. > :05:49.the long term. You may say that you have some promises from Hamas, some
:05:49. > :05:56.guarantees. They may say that they too have won some victories over
:05:56. > :06:02.you. What will change in the dynamic of this relationship?
:06:02. > :06:09.through talking. We have said publicly, if Hamas is ready to talk,
:06:09. > :06:13.to negotiate, why not? Your message doesn't tally with the message of
:06:13. > :06:19.some members of the current Netanyahu government. I wonder what
:06:20. > :06:25.you think when you hear for example Interior Minister any shy earlier
:06:25. > :06:31.in this crisis according to a reputable newspaper here, they
:06:31. > :06:37.reported he said Israel should send - es. -
:06:37. > :06:45.- Eli Yishai. What do you think of that mind said? I don't know if he
:06:45. > :06:55.said it but it is his view. We are like a democracy from Great Britain.
:06:55. > :06:57.
:06:57. > :07:02.-- mindset. I am talking about the in the government. He is the senior
:07:02. > :07:06.minister of the interior, he does not run the foreign policy. The
:07:06. > :07:12.official position of the Israeli government is for a two state
:07:12. > :07:17.solution. That is what everybody is saying. That is what we are saying.
:07:17. > :07:21.Who is stopping it? If the Gazans agreed to a two state solution and
:07:21. > :07:27.stop firing, we can have that. If they want to destroy Israel there's
:07:27. > :07:31.no reason we should participate in committing suicide. The point is
:07:31. > :07:36.surely that you have to begin a dialogue with your enemies before
:07:36. > :07:41.your enemies have laid down their weapons. Israel reached out to fat
:07:41. > :07:48.are and the PLO when you were still at war with them. The question now
:07:48. > :07:55.is why not change the strategic dynamic here by establishing a
:07:55. > :08:02.negotiation, a dialogue, a contact with Hamas? They don't want one.
:08:02. > :08:07.I may say so, the individual who was assassinated, Ahmed Al Jabari,
:08:07. > :08:15.was in an indirect negotiation with a peace activist in this country,
:08:15. > :08:22.Gershon Baskin, Gershon Baskin says from Jabari was that he wanted to
:08:22. > :08:28.talk about. A few days later his Royal killed him. Gershon Baskin
:08:28. > :08:35.was given the chance to talk. -- Israel killed him. Israel stopped
:08:35. > :08:41.Jabari, they killed him. In the morning they are was an order to
:08:41. > :08:46.shoot at the bus of Israeli children. Why? Who gave the order?
:08:46. > :08:51.We have to be realistic? Why are they shooting at schools, at
:08:51. > :08:59.kindergartens? Somebody is responsible. You can't say that his
:08:59. > :09:03.dialogue. -- is dialogue. It's not done and it cannot be accepted.
:09:03. > :09:07.Let's talk about the diplomatic context in which this crisis is
:09:07. > :09:14.unfolding. Something fundamental has shifted since Operation cast
:09:14. > :09:20.led, the last time Israel tried to dismantle the Hamas military threat.
:09:20. > :09:28.What has changed is the Arab Spring. We have seen in Egypt for example
:09:28. > :09:32.the rise of a new government led by a Muslim Brotherhood. I just wonder
:09:32. > :09:38.if you believe that this presents a whole new set of problems for
:09:38. > :09:45.Israel in terms of the diplomacy around the confrontation? A set of
:09:45. > :09:52.problems and a set of Hope's. It is not just one way traffic. -- hopes.
:09:52. > :09:56.I must say I'm pleasantly surprised by the responsibility taken on by
:09:56. > :10:02.the President of Egypt, the member of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the
:10:02. > :10:06.way he is playing it right now. I have respect for it. I want to make
:10:06. > :10:11.it clear, the conditions put against us, otherwise people will
:10:11. > :10:17.question it, there's a quartet made of four members, the Americans, the
:10:17. > :10:22.Russians, us and the Egyptians. They put the conditions before
:10:22. > :10:28.Hamas, not us. They say if you do three things Israel will begin
:10:28. > :10:35.immediately negotiating. Stop shooting, recognise Israel, start
:10:35. > :10:42.talking. Let Hamas do it. And there won't be any problems. These other
:10:42. > :10:46.condition of the most objective all-embracing diplomatic Group.
:10:46. > :10:51.question is getting to the heart of trust between you and Egypt. As
:10:51. > :10:57.part of a deal to the escalate the Gaza crisis, you need the Egyptians
:10:57. > :11:04.to guarantee the arms flow into Gaza will be stopped, that Sinai a
:11:04. > :11:10.will be safe from any sort of G Hardy Militant threat. You need to
:11:10. > :11:16.believe that Cairo can deliver on promises it makes. -- jihadi. I'm
:11:16. > :11:24.asking you whether the Israeli public really believes that?
:11:24. > :11:29.assure you that the Israeli public wants peace. It does not get any
:11:29. > :11:33.pleasure for them to see any suffering in Gaza. Not just Egypt,
:11:33. > :11:38.look at the whole change in the region. Look at the fact that your
:11:38. > :11:44.erstwhile ally, Turkey, for five years now has been extraordinarily
:11:44. > :11:48.critical of Israel and Prime Minister Erdogan basically talks
:11:48. > :11:53.about his role as a terrorist nation. You have problems in your
:11:53. > :11:57.partnership with Jordan. -- about Israel. The monarchy is looking
:11:57. > :12:04.more unsteady there. You don't know what is going to happen in Syria.
:12:04. > :12:12.So what? That is the question. answer is that the Arab nations are
:12:12. > :12:17.in a transitional period. Things are unsettled. The wake up in the
:12:17. > :12:21.Arab world has nothing to do with Israel. What's happening in Syria
:12:21. > :12:26.has nothing to do with Israel. What happened in Tunisia has nothing to
:12:26. > :12:31.do with Israel. What happened in Egypt has nothing to do with Israel.
:12:31. > :12:36.They are trying to find their own way. We are not their enemies. We
:12:36. > :12:42.do not hate them, we don't attack them, we don't demand anything from
:12:42. > :12:47.them. We gave back the land to Egypt. We gave back the land to
:12:47. > :12:51.Gaza. What do they want us to do? There's a young generation, please
:12:51. > :12:57.don't forget it, in the Arab world, which is sick and tired of the
:12:57. > :13:07.poverty, of the oppression, of the lack of food and hope. They are
:13:07. > :13:13.
:13:13. > :13:18.trying to change it. It's a new I want to focus on what Israel can-
:13:18. > :13:27.do. And when you talk about people being sick and tired, what it seems
:13:27. > :13:31.to me is that, Palestinians are sick and tired on Israel insisting
:13:31. > :13:41.on the development of more and more Jewish settlements on occupied land.
:13:41. > :13:43.
:13:43. > :13:50.They are now beyond 600,000. It is getting larger. When that happens,
:13:50. > :13:54.Palestinians do not believe in talk of now to state solution. -- of a
:13:54. > :14:04.two-stage solution. Hamas is telling them to forget about the
:14:04. > :14:06.
:14:06. > :14:14.solution. We took up the settlers and the settlements. Usually need
:14:14. > :14:19.to think about the expense of Jewish settlements. It is a
:14:19. > :14:29.fundamental obstacle to peace. started with a Gaza. Look what
:14:29. > :14:30.
:14:30. > :14:40.happened. They are preventing the implementation of peace, not us. It
:14:40. > :14:41.
:14:41. > :14:49.was one of their most known decisions. We have talked a lot
:14:49. > :14:54.about Gaza. Let us talk about the West Bank. The government has, in
:14:54. > :15:04.its actions, particularly on settlement policy, effectively
:15:04. > :15:10.
:15:10. > :15:20.undermined their credibility. previously negotiated settlement.
:15:20. > :15:25.
:15:25. > :15:30.But we stopped and negotiation. That was a mistake. We could start
:15:30. > :15:40.the negotiations without prior conditions. I advised that we have
:15:40. > :15:44.
:15:44. > :15:52.to negotiate. In the West Bank we have 350,000 settlers. A including
:15:52. > :16:01.East Jerusalem have over 600,000. That is different. East Jerusalem
:16:01. > :16:11.is a different problem. Going to the West Bank. 350,000 set close a
:16:11. > :16:17.
:16:17. > :16:23.settled. -- sat close. Some people say that it is 5%. We said that we
:16:23. > :16:28.should put them somewhere else. They agree. But the other extreme
:16:28. > :16:35.right partners in the coalition are not saying that at all. The truth
:16:35. > :16:41.is surely in the words of a respected Israeli commentator. He
:16:41. > :16:51.said this very recently, it has settlement project is actually
:16:51. > :16:52.
:16:52. > :16:57.achieving its goal. The situation on the ground is irreversible. The
:16:57. > :17:06.solution of solving the problems between the Israelis and
:17:06. > :17:13.Palestinians is no longer available. What I am saying is that after
:17:14. > :17:23.talking to the Prime Minister and working over the details, we are
:17:24. > :17:25.
:17:25. > :17:31.taking away 5%. You want continuity, we will provide you with continuity.
:17:31. > :17:35.We do not get rich from it. I do not want to sound rude, you sound
:17:35. > :17:39.as though you live in a different country from the Prime Minister
:17:39. > :17:44.when you talk about negotiations. The message from the Israeli
:17:44. > :17:54.government right now, and you are largely a figurehead president, the
:17:54. > :17:57.
:17:57. > :17:59.message from the government is that if Mahmoud Abbas goes ahead with
:17:59. > :18:08.the Observer state status, the Israeli government will look at
:18:08. > :18:14.ways of toppling it. I am not a figurehead. Do not forget it. I
:18:14. > :18:24.went to talk to mum would a bus with the knowledge and empowerment
:18:24. > :18:26.
:18:26. > :18:33.of the prime minister. -- Mahmoud Abbas. The Prime Minister said so.
:18:33. > :18:40.Not the defence minister. We are co-operating with him. We would
:18:40. > :18:45.like to see the West Bank flourishing. This is the policy in
:18:45. > :18:55.effect, not my dream. One more issue I would like to raise with
:18:55. > :18:56.
:18:56. > :19:02.you before we go. That is the issue of Orion. -- Iran. You have
:19:02. > :19:08.criticised the Prime Minister's insistence that Israel must retain
:19:08. > :19:11.the right to take unilateral military action against Iran if
:19:11. > :19:16.Israel believes that Iranian nuclear ambitions threaten the
:19:16. > :19:23.Israeli state. You stated that unilateral action would be a
:19:23. > :19:32.mistake. Is that still your position? My position is that
:19:32. > :19:37.position. Try and prevent the building of a nuclear arsenal.
:19:37. > :19:43.First of all, by economic sanctions and political pressures. Telling
:19:43. > :19:49.the Iranians that other options are on the table. If you do not tell
:19:49. > :19:57.them, they will not listen to you. The one who has to conduct it is
:19:57. > :20:02.the President of the United States. The United States has a power over
:20:02. > :20:09.Israel's military actions in regards to Iran? We do not mind
:20:09. > :20:16.that the United States will do what. We cannot build a coalition. We
:20:16. > :20:26.cannot do which alone. We have worked together. We're all of the
:20:26. > :20:29.
:20:29. > :20:35.same opinion. Let them do what. I trust President Obama. I think he
:20:35. > :20:43.is fair-minded. I trust his words. I believe this is an American
:20:43. > :20:53.policy that cannot fail. I am shocked when I saw the papers about
:20:53. > :20:54.
:20:54. > :21:01.the nuclear tests. I used ten to have respect for Fidel Castro. Now
:21:01. > :21:11.I cannot look at him. He wanted to bomb the West. We had a situation
:21:11. > :21:11.
:21:11. > :21:17.here. I trust the Americans. It is an American and British interest.
:21:17. > :21:21.The West cannot afford it. fundamental difference between US
:21:21. > :21:26.President of the state and the Prime Minister, who does not, in
:21:26. > :21:33.the end, believe that Israel should invest will of its trust in the
:21:33. > :21:40.United States to tackle the Iran problem. It seems to me from his
:21:40. > :21:47.public statements and joyous that there is a definite gap. When I was
:21:47. > :21:57.very young, I was taught to judge people on their records. Do not
:21:57. > :22:06.judge them on their speeches. Israel did not go at it alone.
:22:06. > :22:16.Israel accepted the American position. Syria now has a
:22:16. > :22:20.
:22:20. > :22:23.collection of chemical weapons. Who knows what Bashar al-Assad will do?
:22:24. > :22:28.We should not go at it alone in my cards to terrible weapons in the
:22:28. > :22:32.hands of irresponsible people. final question. You're approaching
:22:32. > :22:42.the end of your term as president. Do you believe there will be
:22:42. > :22:52.military action begins to run Mac before you leave? -- Iran? I
:22:52. > :22:58.believe the United States and Russians will deal with it. I am