:00:01. > :00:07.compensation. Up to 1,000 people have come forward with allegations
:00:07. > :00:13.1950s. 1950s.
:00:13. > :00:18.Those are the latest headlines. Now, it is time for HARDtalk. It has
:00:18. > :00:22.become known as the Marikana massacre. 34 people were killed as
:00:22. > :00:27.police in South Africa opened fire on striking miners. For many, it
:00:27. > :00:33.had echoes of Sharpeville in 1960, one of the defining events that
:00:33. > :00:37.opened the world's eye is to apartheid. For Franz Fellaini, the
:00:37. > :00:42.President of the National Union of Mineworkers, Marikana is a
:00:42. > :00:47.challenge not just to South Africa's mining industry but to the
:00:47. > :00:51.entire political system that has developed since apartheid. Is this
:00:51. > :01:01.violence evidence that the system has failed all but a tiny political
:01:01. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:28.Welcome to HARDtalk. What do you think Marikana tells us about post-
:01:28. > :01:34.apartheid South Africa? Thank you and good afternoon. Marikana tells
:01:34. > :01:40.us a number of things. In the first instance, it tells us that post
:01:40. > :01:45.apartheid, there are social details to be dealt with. In the main,
:01:45. > :01:49.there are three - unemployment, poverty and inequality. At the time
:01:49. > :01:54.of these demonstrations, you were calling for decisive action from
:01:54. > :02:02.the police and decisive action is what you got. Decisive action
:02:02. > :02:07.simply means to ask law-enforcement and prevention of loss of life. Ask
:02:07. > :02:11.for law enforcement. Any loss of life is regrettable. Our
:02:11. > :02:16.constitution does not permit anybody to take lives. This is
:02:16. > :02:20.something that is not allowed. the day, you said at a local radio
:02:20. > :02:25.station that police were patient but these people were extremely
:02:25. > :02:29.armed with dangerous weapons. Do you still believe it was their
:02:29. > :02:35.fault? It is not entirely their fault, how the police have acted.
:02:35. > :02:40.The bottom line is that by the time the police had acted, 10 lives were
:02:40. > :02:44.lost. Our call was to prevent any further loss of life, not more
:02:44. > :02:50.killings. What we had was a situation where there were in
:02:50. > :02:54.effect two rival unions. Your union, the NUM, the established voice of
:02:54. > :03:00.the workers in the mining industry for the best part of 30 years,
:03:00. > :03:04.saying to people, go back to work, this strike is illegal, and a new
:03:04. > :03:10.rival organisations saying stand your ground, fight for your rights.
:03:10. > :03:14.Isn't this an illustration of the NUM's declining authority in the
:03:14. > :03:19.mining industry? This is not about the declining authority of any one
:03:19. > :03:24.in the mining industry. If you look at the events of Marikana, there
:03:25. > :03:31.were many players and not all were mining workers. Out of the 34
:03:31. > :03:38.people who were killed, 12 were employees of Lonmin. Of the 200 or
:03:38. > :03:44.so people who were arrested, 71 not the employees of Lonmin. It is not
:03:44. > :03:48.the matter of having workers from Lonmin deciding to were is up --
:03:48. > :03:53.deciding to rise up. You are not saying that none of those people
:03:53. > :03:57.were workers and that they were not concerned with the level of wages
:03:57. > :04:02.they were receiving? Indeed, workers were concerned about the
:04:02. > :04:06.level of wages they were receiving. But two months before Marikana,
:04:06. > :04:16.they accepted a wage settlement that had been negotiated and gave
:04:16. > :04:20.
:04:20. > :04:25.us a mandate. There are of a social economic factors of our time.
:04:25. > :04:27.Zillah, one of the leaders from the so she'll -- Social Democratic
:04:27. > :04:32.Alliance, she says that the National Union of Mineworkers was
:04:32. > :04:38.not even able to go in and speak to the workers there. She says this
:04:38. > :04:43.represents the extent to which the ANC is coming apart and the
:04:43. > :04:50.alliance with the unions is also coming apart. That is
:04:50. > :04:54.misinformation. The reality is that it was a tiny number of people who
:04:54. > :05:03.were behind the violence which actually prevented us from engaging
:05:04. > :05:08.with workers. If you look at... Out of 30,000 or so, just about 5,000
:05:08. > :05:12.were on that hilltop. People were engineering and driving the
:05:12. > :05:16.findings. This was a smaller number of people than that. The strike was
:05:16. > :05:20.maintained through violence and intimidation. Without that, the
:05:20. > :05:26.strike would not have continued. There were testimony is that on
:05:26. > :05:30.11th August, a few days before the massacre, protesters were
:05:30. > :05:34.confronted with NUM members who shot at them and killed them.
:05:34. > :05:39.facts are being presented as we speak in the commission of inquiry.
:05:39. > :05:44.The police have confirmed that nobody on that day was killed. It
:05:44. > :05:48.is not factual. And this will be presented at the commission of
:05:49. > :05:53.inquiry. We talk of this as being a battle potentially between the
:05:53. > :05:56.supporters of your union and those who are challenging its authority.
:05:56. > :06:01.The question that arises from that given the dominant role that the
:06:01. > :06:11.NUM has enjoyed in the industry for so long, is how he is your union
:06:11. > :06:11.
:06:11. > :06:17.now? What is full membership? 320,000. In the last few periods of
:06:17. > :06:24.statistic taking, we have lost a few thousand members, some from
:06:24. > :06:30.London, and some from Impala. Impala would challenge will
:06:30. > :06:37.percentage. They say among their workers, NUM membership has gone
:06:37. > :06:41.from 70% to 13% in seven months. The numbers we have it is 38%.
:06:41. > :06:46.Remember, we're challenging the legitimacy of that equipment. Many
:06:46. > :06:51.workers have indicated to us they have been cut worst and intimidated
:06:51. > :06:57.and had agreements signed on their behalf. -- her worst. In essence,
:06:57. > :07:02.you except that there is a decline. This is a significant decline and
:07:02. > :07:07.it must tell you something. This is a significant decline but we must
:07:07. > :07:12.look at how it happens. It happens only where there is violence and
:07:12. > :07:18.intimidation. In a normal situation, it does not happen. People have
:07:18. > :07:24.been scared out of membership? just scared, they have been killed.
:07:24. > :07:29.Many people have been killed. There is another reason people are
:07:29. > :07:34.killed in mining and that is because of accidents. South Africa
:07:34. > :07:38.has, even now, the highest mining death-rate in the industrialised
:07:38. > :07:43.world. What does that say about the long established collaborative
:07:43. > :07:49.relationship your union has enjoyed with the mining companies?
:07:49. > :07:56.Over a period of time that we have fought those killings underground,
:07:56. > :08:01.we have reduced the mine accident rate from 1,000 per annum to less
:08:01. > :08:06.than 200 per annum. It is still the highest in the industrial world.
:08:06. > :08:11.still believe that we can still do more. It is because of greed and
:08:11. > :08:17.the pay structure. The greed of employers, basically. With the pace
:08:17. > :08:22.up to, the bonus is the incentive. Basic pay is made low. People chase
:08:22. > :08:27.the bonus. Do you except it is a failing on
:08:27. > :08:32.your part, on the part of the Union, not to have insured that there are
:08:32. > :08:38.fewer such deaths? To make sure they are the rare exception rather
:08:38. > :08:43.than a routine risk for miners? would say it is a failure on our
:08:43. > :08:48.side. Yes, we can still do more. As I have said, we have done so much,
:08:48. > :08:54.including strike action to prevent further loss of life. It is for
:08:54. > :08:57.this reason that we have called for the tightening of legislation,
:08:57. > :09:04.including having chief-executive is prosecuted and sent to jail. It is
:09:04. > :09:08.only then will there be the message that any loss of life will carry
:09:08. > :09:12.consequences. The Bishop of Pretoria was involved in a strike
:09:12. > :09:16.mediator. He said, as he was working on trying to help resolve
:09:16. > :09:21.this situation, that the Association of mine workers and
:09:21. > :09:26.construction union, the new rival union that is trying to set up and
:09:26. > :09:32.muscle in on your territory, saw the plight of the workers and were
:09:32. > :09:36.more sympathetic towards them than the NUM. That cannot be factual. We
:09:36. > :09:41.have been dealing with the issues of mine workers over 30 years.
:09:41. > :09:47.Isn't that the problem, however? You have become part of the
:09:47. > :09:51.establishment? We have nothing to lose. It is in our interest as
:09:51. > :09:56.workers to be united in confronting and poor years. We cannot kill our
:09:56. > :10:02.own members or kill potential members. It is not in our best
:10:02. > :10:06.interest. We would rather lose numbers to other unions than lose
:10:07. > :10:10.members to killing. Argues still a worker?
:10:10. > :10:17.The general secretary comes through the ranks of the Union and has
:10:17. > :10:22.worked underground, is elected by a workers. You are the chairman and
:10:22. > :10:29.deputy chairman of various high- profile financial institutions and
:10:29. > :10:36.insurance bodies. That's all according to Business Week. Is that
:10:36. > :10:45.the background workers might expect from their union boss? Some of
:10:45. > :10:50.those points are not factual. One of those places you mentioned his
:10:50. > :10:57.working for the benefit of mine workers. We have produced over 800
:10:57. > :11:01.graduates and have supplied over 3,000 bursaries. What about round
:11:01. > :11:05.mutual insurance? Mutual investments?
:11:05. > :11:14.This was about compensation of workers. It is an area of struggle.
:11:14. > :11:17.There is nothing wrong... And S One Holdings? Again, that was a
:11:17. > :11:24.deployment by the union as a result of fighting the struggle in that
:11:24. > :11:27.company, which we are organising. We must have a voice. Once I was
:11:27. > :11:33.elected as the general secretary, I resigned from the position because
:11:33. > :11:38.when I was deployed there... Another issue that has recently
:11:38. > :11:46.been raised is your salary. The Guardian and the Daily Mail
:11:46. > :11:56.reported that you receive 70,000 rand per months. Total salary is
:11:56. > :11:56.
:11:56. > :12:03.105 rand per month. That is a lot of money. Those statistics are not
:12:03. > :12:08.factual. Is it above or below that? Below. How far below? That is a
:12:08. > :12:12.matter for the union to disclose. Let me point out to you that the
:12:12. > :12:18.senses of 2012, which was published by the South African statistical
:12:18. > :12:23.authorities, says that the average Black Sabbath in household makes
:12:23. > :12:28.60,600 rand per year. -- black South African household. Your
:12:28. > :12:33.monthly salary is more what they would and per year. Are you saying
:12:33. > :12:37.you are anywhere close to what the average black South African
:12:37. > :12:44.household would be making? union determines the salaries of
:12:44. > :12:47.its employees... That is not an excuse, is it? You are in a
:12:47. > :12:52.position to say that as general secretary, in the middle of an
:12:52. > :12:57.economic crisis, when the industry is suffering, when many of your
:12:57. > :13:01."fellow workers" are on low wages, maybe you should step forward and
:13:01. > :13:06.say you don't want to take this money. We should compare apples
:13:06. > :13:11.with apples. People employed in the Union include lawyers, people with
:13:11. > :13:16.certain skills, who must be compensated according to the market
:13:16. > :13:20.in order to render quality services to the ordinary union members.
:13:20. > :13:25.this is a market, does this mean that if you do not receive that
:13:25. > :13:32.money, you would go off and work for another union? I do not
:13:32. > :13:36.determine my salary. My salary is actually below the market rate.
:13:36. > :13:41.general secretary of Cosatu, the organisation of which the NUM is a
:13:41. > :13:44.member, it represents all the trades unions in South Africa, is
:13:44. > :13:48.part of this alliance that has essentially governed South Africa
:13:48. > :13:53.since apartheid, he says that the NUM favours management and high
:13:53. > :13:58.skill work is over the wreck and file. I don't know where she gets
:13:58. > :14:01.that information. It is not a matter of us are favouring any
:14:01. > :14:06.particular workers. We look after the interests of our members across
:14:07. > :14:12.the board. The critical issue is more about the into a democratic
:14:12. > :14:17.process. People who are elected tend to the mark educated at the
:14:17. > :14:22.lower level. This marginalised the better operators. Let us extend is
:14:22. > :14:26.beyond the union and what happened specifically at Marikana to the
:14:26. > :14:31.problems facing the ANC government. The NUM has been a critical support
:14:31. > :14:35.of the ANC government. It has been an important voice in helping to
:14:35. > :14:40.fight apartheid and a bigger voice in modern South Africa. What do you
:14:40. > :14:42.think of the achievements of the 18 years since that system was
:14:42. > :14:48.demolished? There has been so much. In the
:14:48. > :14:55.first place, I no longer fear being arrested. That means that for the
:14:55. > :15:03.first time, I can participate in a regular elections. There are a
:15:03. > :15:07.number of changes that have happened. Education, empowerment -
:15:07. > :15:11.we are now allowed to occupy positions that were previously
:15:11. > :15:21.forbidden. There is a range of positive things that the ANC was
:15:21. > :15:24.Black people can get the top -- to the top in Africa, but yet there
:15:24. > :15:33.are many people who are still left behind, you were in dispute that?
:15:33. > :15:38.That is fair. The problems are behind the fall of unemployment, --
:15:38. > :15:41.poverty and inequalities. Education remains a problem. And worryingly,
:15:41. > :15:46.inequality has grown since apartheid is a poet. The gap
:15:46. > :15:50.between rich and poor is among the world's largest. This is a
:15:50. > :15:56.concerned that we have raised. It is why we have said to the African
:15:56. > :15:59.nation of Congress in this month's conference -- Congress, if they're
:15:59. > :16:03.not going to craft policies that deal with the underlying factors,
:16:03. > :16:10.they may as well be relevant. They need to come up with policies and
:16:10. > :16:17.positions that will deal seriously with the problems. A how close of
:16:17. > :16:23.eight to making themselves irrelevant? From the discussions we
:16:23. > :16:30.have had and that the policy conference earlier this year, there
:16:30. > :16:32.is no doubt that they are equally concerned about these issues.
:16:32. > :16:39.is the leadership conference in December which will decide whether
:16:39. > :16:45.or not Jacob Zuma, the President of South Africa, did re-elected as ANC
:16:45. > :16:49.leader. The President called Marikana when he was on a trip to
:16:49. > :16:55.Belgium an unfortunate incident. Nobody expected such an event. Is
:16:55. > :16:59.that true? Nobody expected that they could be such a shooting and
:16:59. > :17:03.killings. There had been strikes going on for most of the year.
:17:03. > :17:08.There has been violence and other incidents that the protests ad's
:17:08. > :17:12.public service failures. People could not have been blind to the
:17:12. > :17:18.change of mood that was gripping many in South Africa. The point he
:17:18. > :17:28.was rising is that we did not expect the skirmishes to the extent
:17:28. > :17:29.
:17:29. > :17:33.with 34 people the issue of -- 34 people. The issue of inequality is
:17:33. > :17:37.a ticking bomb. That is why every attempt had to be made to deal with
:17:37. > :17:42.that, especially with the high level of youth unemployment. It is
:17:42. > :17:49.exactly the message the former leader of the game seemed Youth
:17:49. > :17:52.League, Julius Malema, has been pushing. He actually spoke to the
:17:52. > :17:57.Marikana miners before the President did. You cannot stop
:17:57. > :18:00.someone interacting with others. You have to see it -- look at his
:18:00. > :18:06.intention. It is a serious intention to speak to them or is it
:18:06. > :18:11.about him repositioning himself? Out interest is in the broader
:18:11. > :18:15.interest of the country. This was a terrible event, which everyone
:18:15. > :18:19.subsequently acknowledges. Many people were injured and that it was
:18:19. > :18:24.a big death toll. Many people were charged with collective offences of
:18:24. > :18:30.murder. A big inquiry set up. The President seems to have been called
:18:30. > :18:34.on the hob. The President would want to speak for himself. What do
:18:34. > :18:39.you think of it? The President was out of the country in the first
:18:39. > :18:45.place. The day after the President disrupted his engagement in
:18:45. > :18:53.Zimbabwe to visit the site and took a position on the spot that a
:18:53. > :18:57.commission of inquiry must be established to look at the event.
:18:57. > :19:04.You back him before. It will be union-backed him again at the
:19:04. > :19:07.leadership conference? Those issues are internal matters. When we go to
:19:07. > :19:16.the conference it is up to the delegates who decide who we vote
:19:16. > :19:18.for. Isn't the violent also on the streets, not just in the minds, a
:19:18. > :19:24.bit of evidence that people are losing faith in the political
:19:24. > :19:32.system? That 18 years of past of -- post-apartheid South Africa just
:19:32. > :19:39.have not delivered for the majority of black South Africans? Undoing
:19:39. > :19:42.the Hunslet of apartheid will never take 18 years. There has to be that
:19:42. > :19:47.understanding in the first place. If you look at the housing, how
:19:47. > :19:52.many houses were delivered. More than the Arpad had put together in
:19:52. > :19:58.its era. And yet the number of people living in shacks has gone up.
:19:58. > :20:03.We have a decrease in the number of people -- an increase of people
:20:03. > :20:08.with flush toilets from 50% to 57%. It will take for ever to give
:20:08. > :20:13.people a decent standard of living. That is why we are telling the ANC
:20:13. > :20:19.to accelerate delivery. Why haven't you been saying this for the last
:20:19. > :20:23.18 years? We have been saying it. So they are ignoring? There have
:20:23. > :20:28.been improvement in areas and lapses in others. We are quite
:20:28. > :20:34.confident that some of the service delivery issues... That sounds a
:20:35. > :20:38.bit complacent. The President has said that people will get a clinic
:20:38. > :20:46.and a school and a library and a police station in every community
:20:46. > :20:52.by 2030. Their -- that is another 18 years away. Five years ago, at
:20:52. > :20:56.the last leadership conference, I talked to be distinguished leading
:20:56. > :21:01.figure in the ANC, a Minister for Education. He said he was
:21:01. > :21:04.astonished at how patient Paul black South Africans have been.
:21:04. > :21:10.Five years on, isn't this an indication that their patience is
:21:10. > :21:13.simply running out? It is indeed running out. That is why there is a
:21:13. > :21:20.national plan that is put together a booking of the long-term and had
:21:20. > :21:23.to deal with these issues in a well structured plan, rather than in
:21:23. > :21:27.piecemeal and on a short-term basis. The bottom line is that in order to
:21:27. > :21:31.get resources to deal with the issues, we must grow the economy.
:21:32. > :21:36.If the economy is not growing, you will not get the resources to do
:21:36. > :21:41.public spending. We then have the consequences of these strikes. You
:21:41. > :21:47.have mentioned the importance and need of the economy. Mining is a
:21:47. > :21:51.huge player. Half a million people employed directly. Goodness knows
:21:51. > :21:56.the numbers affected by the spending that comes from that. Are
:21:56. > :22:01.you worried about the prospects for the mining industry now? That
:22:01. > :22:07.investors might be scared off. The Finance Minister was talking about
:22:07. > :22:11.exactly that risk. As one miner who had been on strike told BBC in
:22:12. > :22:18.September, violence works. When they just talk, they get peanuts.
:22:18. > :22:23.When they fight them, they get pay rises of nearly 22%. These events
:22:24. > :22:29.do worry us. The interaction with mining investors, you can see that
:22:29. > :22:33.the morale is slightly lower. I think their confidence should be
:22:33. > :22:39.boosted very soon. The main concern is the consequence of these strikes
:22:39. > :22:43.where they may result in job losses. Already a number of companies have
:22:43. > :22:47.said any indication of an intention to lay off people. You have talked
:22:47. > :22:52.about policies. One of those under consideration is nationalisation of
:22:52. > :22:56.the mines. Julius Malema saying the minds belong to us and we must
:22:56. > :23:03.benefit. If we do not benefit, we must fight until we benefit. We're
:23:03. > :23:05.not scared of the white man and by implication the foreigner.
:23:05. > :23:13.Nationalisation would be one solution. Is it when you would
:23:13. > :23:16.support? The issue is what do we want out of these mines? South
:23:16. > :23:24.Africa must benefit out of the mineral resources we have in this
:23:24. > :23:29.country. They are not benefiting today. State intervention, which is
:23:29. > :23:33.structured in such a manner that they can be returned to the economy
:23:33. > :23:41.and to the people at large. So the government buying stakes in mining
:23:41. > :23:48.companies? Yes the government taking a partnership. In other
:23:49. > :23:55.instances, taking 100% ownership. The cosy relationship like that you
:23:55. > :24:00.have had for 30 years and it has not delivered. If we are to take