:00:01. > :00:11.private jet from Monterrey to Toluca on Sunday after she had
:00:11. > :00:21.
:00:21. > :00:28.performed in a concert. It is time for HARDtalk. This week HARDtalk is
:00:28. > :00:31.in Oslo for the annual Nobel Peace Prize award ceremony. In 2012 the
:00:31. > :00:34.prize has been awarded to the European Union which has, according
:00:34. > :00:36.to the panel, for over six decades contributed to the advancement of
:00:36. > :00:39.peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe. Jose
:00:39. > :00:49.Manuel Barroso has been President of the European Commission since
:00:49. > :00:58.
:00:58. > :01:08.2004. Is Europe's economic crisis in danger of threatening its pace?
:01:08. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:20.Jose Manuel Barroso, welcome to HARDtalk. Were you surprised when
:01:20. > :01:27.you heard the EU had won the prize? We were very proud and humbled by
:01:27. > :01:33.the prize. To be honest I was not completely surprised the stock in
:01:33. > :01:39.2009 there were rumours we could be awarded this prize. -- surprised. I
:01:39. > :01:44.think it is a well deserved prize because of everything the EU has
:01:44. > :01:53.achieved in 60 years. When you think where Europe was and where it
:01:53. > :01:58.is now, it is a large contribution of the EU. You will know the
:01:58. > :02:06.reaction in some parts of Europe, not least in Greece, the main
:02:06. > :02:09.opposition party, Syriza, saying the decision cheaper and the Nobel
:02:09. > :02:18.institution. They say they are experiencing a war situation on a
:02:18. > :02:25.daily basis. I will respond against those who brought Greece to this
:02:25. > :02:30.situation. The people who do not pay taxes. If it was not the EU,
:02:30. > :02:35.Greece would already be in default. They would not be added to pay for
:02:35. > :02:42.their public services. The EU is not the cause of the problems of
:02:42. > :02:45.Greece. We are trying to be the solution. It is partly as a result
:02:45. > :02:51.of their efforts to be involved with the euro that have caused
:02:51. > :02:59.these problems. Angela Merkel says the euro is more than a currency,
:02:59. > :03:05.it is the symbol of unification. 50 years of freedom and peace. Trying
:03:05. > :03:11.to get that project going has caused their problems. I do not
:03:11. > :03:17.agree. I do not think the euro was the problem. Since Lehman Brothers
:03:17. > :03:22.collapsed other countries have had very difficult fiscal policies.
:03:22. > :03:27.They had to use huge amounts of taxpayers' money to save their
:03:27. > :03:32.banks. There are specific challenges for the EU area, but it
:03:32. > :03:39.is not a euro crisis we are going through. Some countries like
:03:39. > :03:46.Iceland, not even in the EU, they have these difficulties. Some
:03:46. > :03:54.countries in the EU like Latvia, they have these tough adjustment
:03:54. > :03:59.programmes. It is completely false politically and philosophically...
:03:59. > :04:05.We have the German Chancellor saying, it maybe Europe's most
:04:05. > :04:15.difficult hours since World War II. Of course. It is not because of the
:04:15. > :04:16.
:04:16. > :04:22.EU. It is a crisis in the eurozone. Yes, but not in the eurozone alone.
:04:22. > :04:31.Britain is not in the eurozone. It is not a crisis of the eurozone. It
:04:31. > :04:37.is a specific challenge for the eurozone. It is not a eurozone
:04:37. > :04:42.crisis alone. That idea, that what the euro symbolises, the
:04:43. > :04:49.unification of Europe, if Greece is forced out of the euro, would that
:04:49. > :04:57.make you think you should hand the Nobel Peace Prize back? Not at all.
:04:57. > :05:02.The Nobel Peace Prize is to honour the achievements of the EU. I am
:05:02. > :05:10.completely sure it was extremely important the role of the EU
:05:10. > :05:20.regarding peace. Not only... Parklea and encouragement to ensure
:05:20. > :05:21.
:05:22. > :05:26.the euro survives? -- partly. it is an encouragement. Is it an
:05:26. > :05:36.encouragement to keep Greece in the euro? Even without the Nobel Peace
:05:36. > :05:37.
:05:37. > :05:44.Prize we are doing everything we can. Against many of the crisis,
:05:44. > :05:54.Greece is still with us. I hope they will stay. Yet we have many
:05:54. > :05:56.
:05:56. > :06:03.people, not least the chief executive of Kim -- PIMCO saying
:06:03. > :06:07.there is insufficient commitment to keep Greece in the eurozone. They
:06:07. > :06:13.say it is hard to find many officials who believe the revamped
:06:13. > :06:21.Greek programme will restore jobs as ability. Senior economists
:06:21. > :06:28.presuming that Greece will a said. They are saying that but so far it
:06:28. > :06:36.has that happened. -- exit. I do not think it is going to happen.
:06:36. > :06:43.People underestimate the level of integration we have in the EU. I
:06:43. > :06:53.think there is a real determination. If you ask me, would you like to
:06:53. > :06:54.
:06:54. > :06:57.have a stronger position in the EU? Yes. We are working on a three-year
:06:57. > :07:01.crisis. The European Commission have been urging all the
:07:02. > :07:09.governments of the EU, including the richest countries, to do their
:07:09. > :07:17.part to support Greece as well. The EU is a union of democracies.
:07:17. > :07:21.Sometimes decisions take a little longer. The EU Commission is
:07:21. > :07:29.independent from our governments. There is consistent determination
:07:29. > :07:35.to do everything to keep Greece on board. Your solution is greater
:07:35. > :07:41.integration of the country's. only that. The first step of that
:07:41. > :07:47.would be a banking union. The point of that is to allow the European
:07:47. > :07:52.Stability Mechanism to pump money directly into Spain's banks for
:07:52. > :08:00.example. The process of getting this union in place is taking time.
:08:00. > :08:05.The most recent suggestion is that could not happen until 2014. Are
:08:05. > :08:15.Spain's bangs going to be OK until then? I am sure we are going to
:08:15. > :08:18.
:08:18. > :08:24.solve the problem. The banks are already being recapitalised. They
:08:24. > :08:29.will not need much more than 45 billion euros maximum. The first
:08:29. > :08:36.operations have been authorised. About the banking union I want to
:08:37. > :08:45.tell you, it is a very important point, it is important for the
:08:46. > :08:50.credibility of what we are doing in the euro area. We propose a single
:08:50. > :08:56.supervisory mechanism. It will not be in a position where it can bail-
:08:56. > :09:02.out banks until 2014? I cannot predict the timing. It depends on
:09:02. > :09:12.the decisions of the member states. It could not be any sooner. Iron
:09:12. > :09:12.
:09:12. > :09:19.Age in the governments to do it as soon as possible. -- I am urging.
:09:19. > :09:25.When the mechanism is working and ready, it will be possible to make
:09:25. > :09:31.the direct implementation through the supervisory mechanism. Does it
:09:31. > :09:39.cover all banks? That is what France wants. Just the big ones
:09:39. > :09:45.like Germany wants? It will cover all... The ECB cannot check on a
:09:45. > :09:48.daily basis for the 6,000 banks of the euro area. When Germany's
:09:48. > :09:54.finance minister says it will be very difficult to get approved by
:09:54. > :09:59.the German parliament to have all German banks under Euro supervision,
:09:59. > :10:04.no-one believes that will work. believe it will be adopted. It will
:10:04. > :10:09.not be credible to have only the ECB making supervision of the big
:10:09. > :10:18.banks. We have seen some of the systemic problems come from
:10:18. > :10:25.relatively small banks. Look at Spain. It can have a systemic
:10:25. > :10:30.impact. It needs to have the possibility to go, if needed, to
:10:30. > :10:38.check the situation in any bank. There will be a division between
:10:38. > :10:42.what the ECB can do at the central level with national supervisors.
:10:42. > :10:48.The national supervisors will still be there. There is a problem with
:10:48. > :10:56.it. It also applies to these other ways you intend to integrate the EU
:10:56. > :11:01.countries. How do you reassure those who are outside it that they
:11:01. > :11:08.are not losing out on the single market? That it is a level playing
:11:08. > :11:15.field. That is a very important issue. We are a union of 27, very
:11:15. > :11:22.soon 28. We have to make the union in a way that does not put in
:11:22. > :11:32.question the integrity of the single market. It is possible to do
:11:32. > :11:36.
:11:36. > :11:40.given there is sufficient political will. In fact, to be honest, the
:11:40. > :11:45.British Government has been extremely clear on this. They say
:11:45. > :11:53.they support further integration of the euro area. Britain, knowing the
:11:53. > :11:58.market's... This is not just Britain. A lot of countries outside
:11:58. > :12:03.the euro who may sign up to the banking supervisor, but they are
:12:03. > :12:08.concerned about voting rights. If they are not able to have as much
:12:08. > :12:13.as a say as those in the euro under the Banking supervision, it is hard
:12:13. > :12:21.to see how you can ensure she have a level playing field. There is a
:12:21. > :12:25.compromise. It is being discussed among the countries. For Europe's
:12:25. > :12:29.long-term credibility it is important we have financial
:12:29. > :12:34.stability in the euro area. We have to have reinforced governance in
:12:34. > :12:40.the euro area with more integration. I think it is possible. We are
:12:40. > :12:47.going to do it. We are very close to a compromise on that. You have
:12:47. > :12:51.set out your blueprint, it is remarkable in terms of what you
:12:51. > :12:57.have put together sovereignty, 2014, sharing decisions on national
:12:57. > :13:01.budgets. In the next ten-year having a European Treasury that
:13:01. > :13:07.would control the central budget and have powers over national
:13:07. > :13:12.budgets. That sounds like a European federal government. In a
:13:12. > :13:21.way you have been clear that it is. The euro area needs that. That is
:13:21. > :13:27.quite clear. This is a matter where all the economists agree. We need
:13:27. > :13:33.smart integration. The credibility of the currency relies on the
:13:33. > :13:37.solidity of the political construct behind it. This kind of further
:13:37. > :13:43.integration is indispensable. can you have a single market that
:13:43. > :13:49.has 27, nearly 28, a European federal government that applies to
:13:49. > :13:54.a smaller group within that? First of all, the euro is the currency of
:13:54. > :13:58.the EU. Two countries have exceptions. All the others in
:13:58. > :14:07.principle should join the euro. Most of them are working hard to
:14:07. > :14:12.reach that goal. In fact, if we have some specific arrangement with
:14:12. > :14:17.the other countries, but the way, that is what Britain has been
:14:17. > :14:23.asking for, some kind of guarantee. I believe it is perfectly possible
:14:23. > :14:31.to keep the integrity of the single market and have a deeper
:14:31. > :14:35.Does this combined Europe have a seat on the European Security
:14:35. > :14:39.Council, or is it represented by Europe and France? Not only Britain
:14:39. > :14:46.and France, they are permanent members, guess, but there are also
:14:46. > :14:50.other countries on a rotating basis. The whole point about Europe is
:14:50. > :14:54.that it is more powerful, this is your argument, should it have a
:14:54. > :14:58.permanent seat? It's not going to happen in the foreseeable future.
:14:58. > :15:04.That is not my proposal for now. Not because Britain and France
:15:04. > :15:08.would not give up their seats. thing is for sure, the European
:15:08. > :15:13.Union.... Let's talk about one country who hears what you say,
:15:13. > :15:18.this is the Czech Republic, it hears your ideas for pooling
:15:18. > :15:22.sovereignty. Its president says, I firmly reject the idea presented by
:15:22. > :15:26.you. He says the only thing he appreciates is that at last you are
:15:26. > :15:31.being honest about the end goal. He says the opposite, he says, "We
:15:31. > :15:36.should think about how to have our state could and sovereignty
:15:36. > :15:41.restored". He is all very well known for his idiosyncratic views.
:15:41. > :15:48.I respect him very much as the President of the Czech Republic.
:15:48. > :15:53.But they are different positions. It is the original position, the
:15:53. > :15:58.idea that climate change is the creation of the leftist Narine
:15:58. > :16:03.Taliban. I very much respect him but I don't agree with him. Would
:16:03. > :16:06.Europe be a happier place without the UK? My personal opinion, my
:16:06. > :16:12.fundamental interest is to have written in the European Union. It
:16:12. > :16:17.is bringing a lot to the European Union. Still? Still. There are some
:16:17. > :16:22.debates going on. But if I look at the internal market, to a large
:16:22. > :16:28.extent that there was a contribution from Britain,
:16:28. > :16:32.including the... Now we are 27 countries. Britain was one of the
:16:32. > :16:38.strongest supporters. You have a country, Britain, that has used its
:16:38. > :16:43.veto a year ago, that is wanting. This is at a time when you're
:16:43. > :16:47.talking about being in crisis mode for three years. I wonder how much
:16:47. > :16:52.you see it as a distraction that doesn't allow you to get on perhaps
:16:52. > :16:57.with what must be to you more serious matters. I very much
:16:57. > :17:01.respect the debate in Britain. I follow the debate. I know there's a
:17:01. > :17:05.debate there about the competencies and so on. You asked my opinion, it
:17:05. > :17:11.is that it is good for Europe to have Britain on board, provided of
:17:11. > :17:15.course Britain is comfortable with the situation. No country is
:17:15. > :17:18.obliged to be in the European Union, we are a free association of free
:17:18. > :17:22.countries. Now it's up to Britain to decide if it wants to keep its
:17:22. > :17:26.position or not in the European Union. The reason I'm asking is
:17:26. > :17:31.that in a sense it's not up to Britain, if Britain wants to
:17:31. > :17:37.renegotiate its supplement how far with the you go to accommodate it?
:17:37. > :17:41.It's a matter for the member states. -- settlement -- the EU. Do you
:17:41. > :17:45.accept a renegotiation make sense at the moment? Not at the moment,
:17:45. > :17:49.the idea of the British government is to put it later. But if one
:17:49. > :17:54.country wants to renegotiate it has the right to do so. Let's move on
:17:55. > :17:57.to the Budget, there were lots of comments made by Britain's prime
:17:57. > :18:02.minister, David Cameron, who has said that because the commission
:18:02. > :18:06.did not offer a single euro in savings, not EUR1, he said it was
:18:06. > :18:10.insulting to European taxpayers. Do you think the commission has got to
:18:10. > :18:14.come up with a better deal for the Budget? The commission is not to
:18:14. > :18:20.vote, we have put forward the proposal. Do you have to improve
:18:20. > :18:25.that? It is not up to me, I keep my proposal, it is a good proposal. To
:18:25. > :18:31.have they could budget we have to have an agreement. -- to have a
:18:32. > :18:37.good budget. The reality is, most of the member states were ready for
:18:37. > :18:43.a compromise, but there were some governments... White including
:18:43. > :18:47.Britain? That were not... Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, Finland,
:18:47. > :18:50.Denmark, all of those that were net contributors to the European Union.
:18:51. > :18:55.Not all, of course there was disagreement between these
:18:55. > :18:58.countries. That is why we don't have the budget yet. Nobody more
:18:58. > :19:02.than the or the commission wants the Budget, according to the
:19:02. > :19:07.treaties we are the ones implementing the Budget. We want an
:19:07. > :19:11.agreement. There are different opinions between the member states.
:19:11. > :19:15.I think it is sensible to understand that Europe needs
:19:15. > :19:19.investment. As those economies you were quoting as saying, austerity
:19:20. > :19:26.alone does not solve the problems. You we need apart from the
:19:26. > :19:30.correction of public finances, apart from reforms, we need
:19:30. > :19:35.investment. The European Union budget is basically a Budget for
:19:35. > :19:41.investment. The commission has made it clear that any country, a
:19:41. > :19:47.country like Scotland, that would choose to be independent, would
:19:47. > :19:53.need to reapply for EU membership. When you think about how that would
:19:53. > :19:57.work, would it just been nodded through? I did not comment on
:19:57. > :20:03.specific situations because I respect it is their sovereign right
:20:03. > :20:08.to decide about their organisation. Now what I said, and it is our
:20:08. > :20:16.doctrine and this is clear since 2004 in legal terms, if one part of
:20:16. > :20:20.a country, I'm not referring to any specific one, wants to become an
:20:20. > :20:23.independent state, of course, as an independent state, it has to apply
:20:23. > :20:30.to the European Union membership according to the rules. That
:20:30. > :20:35.soggiest. It has to renegotiate terms? Yes. -- that's obvious. Is
:20:35. > :20:44.it doing that from inside as a member of the EU, or is it
:20:44. > :20:48.effectively reapplying from outside the EU question yellow. We are a
:20:48. > :20:53.union of states, if there is a new one they have to reapply. And using
:20:53. > :20:56.the example of Scotland, I appreciate you're not using
:20:57. > :21:00.specifics, if they choose independence, it is then might a
:21:00. > :21:07.new State applying to the you. a legal point of view it is
:21:07. > :21:12.certainly a new state -- to the EU. Yes. It has to negotiate with the
:21:12. > :21:19.European Union. What about the rest of the UK that is left behind by
:21:19. > :21:24.Scotland's independence? That is a contingency of the deal. Will it
:21:24. > :21:28.have to renegotiate its stance? In principle, no. Let's go back to the
:21:28. > :21:33.peace prize in Europe, Standard and Poor's says Greece's Independent
:21:33. > :21:38.meltdown is more Syria in duration and scale than the depression in
:21:38. > :21:41.Germany that led to the rise of Hitler. -- severe. When you see the
:21:41. > :21:49.rise of far right parties now in Europe, do you fear that something
:21:49. > :21:56.like that could happen again? think we have to be vigilant.
:21:56. > :22:00.Against the extreme nationalism and xenophobia and chauvinism. This is
:22:00. > :22:04.what we are against. The European Union is a construction against
:22:04. > :22:08.extreme nationalism, to show countries that we can live together
:22:08. > :22:13.sharing sovereignty and working together for a common good, at the
:22:13. > :22:17.same time respecting the identity of each country. The honest answer
:22:17. > :22:22.to your question is yes on concerned, I don't like it some of
:22:22. > :22:26.the movements, optimistic movements that we have seen here and there in
:22:26. > :22:29.Europe, even if it's quite clear that in member states the
:22:29. > :22:34.mainstream parties are very committed to freedom, democracy and
:22:34. > :22:40.European Values. Are they being fed, those extreme parties, by the
:22:40. > :22:45.crisis? Yes. Precisely. It is a crash not just in Europe, it is a
:22:45. > :22:51.more general problem with globalisation. People are afraid.
:22:51. > :22:58.There's a kind of angst, a kind of fear about the future. We know well
:22:58. > :23:03.that in this circumstances there are always people who try to make
:23:04. > :23:09.simple answers to complex issues. The temptation of saying no to the
:23:09. > :23:15.foreigner, saying no to Europe, is a very strong temptation. I wonder
:23:15. > :23:18.how you reach out to people in Greece, who feel fury and rage at
:23:18. > :23:25.other countries, that they see partly responsible for their
:23:25. > :23:29.situation. But that's not true. It's not Germany, let's be honest,
:23:29. > :23:35.that created difficulties in Greece. The excessive deficits and spending,
:23:35. > :23:38.the tax evasion and tax fraud. it all their fault? It was mainly
:23:38. > :23:43.the fault of irresponsible politicians in Greece, not of the
:23:43. > :23:49.Greek people, they are making huge sacrifice is now. They suffered
:23:49. > :23:57.from the euro and they Sea countries that benefited from the
:23:57. > :24:04.euro, like Germany. If Greece was not in the euro it would already be
:24:04. > :24:10.in default. The policy we have to be honest with... The situation is
:24:10. > :24:14.very serious. I follow the Greek case on a daily basis over the last
:24:14. > :24:19.few years, working with leaders to do my best to support them with all
:24:19. > :24:23.the means available. We have to seek an alternative. What would be