:00:14. > :00:19.Now on BBC News it's time for Afghanistan is reckoned to be one
:00:19. > :00:24.of the worst places on earth to be a woman. Forced early marriage,
:00:24. > :00:29.high maternal mortality rates and little secondary education. My
:00:29. > :00:31.guess today is Dr Sina Samar, a medical doctor, educator and
:00:31. > :00:36.chairperson of Afghanistan's Human Rights Commission. Ten years ago,
:00:36. > :00:40.she also became her country's first ever Minister for Women's Affairs.
:00:40. > :00:43.She has been a pioneer for human rights in Afghanistan but does she
:00:43. > :00:53.have the right strategy to win greater freedoms for after on
:00:53. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:20.Dr Sina Samar, welcome. Thank you very much. Which is more important
:01:20. > :01:25.to you, eight defender of human rights for citizens or a champion
:01:26. > :01:33.for women's rights? I think human- rights Ra universal by year. I
:01:33. > :01:39.think women's rights, under the same umbrella. I keep pushing human
:01:39. > :01:44.rights as women's rights. Surely you must have a focus? I think that
:01:44. > :01:49.if you push for human rights then it takes all the population but if
:01:49. > :01:54.you only focus on women's rights, it is half the population. That is
:01:54. > :01:59.why we generally fight for human rights and try to put women's
:01:59. > :02:06.rights under the human rights agenda. If women are not free, then
:02:06. > :02:12.neither are the men.Known international circles and attend a
:02:12. > :02:19.lot of conferences as part of women's networks as principally a
:02:19. > :02:23.promoter of women's rights. That may, at times, could you at odds
:02:23. > :02:27.with many in Afghanistan. I think it is not only in Afghanistan but
:02:27. > :02:33.in other countries. It is a question of controlling half the
:02:33. > :02:39.population which is women. In any country, you face some obstacles.
:02:39. > :02:44.In a country such as Afghanistan where we have a strong conservative
:02:44. > :02:50.people and powerful people around then they do not like to lose the
:02:50. > :02:55.power on half of the population, which is women. You could argue
:02:55. > :02:58.that the most important thing is to educate people and that is the key
:02:58. > :03:03.for prosperous society and if you focus on that then prosperous
:03:03. > :03:06.treatment for women in society follows. Why not just focus on the
:03:06. > :03:12.rights of all citizens in Afghanistan and say that the rights
:03:12. > :03:16.of young women -- young males are also violated when they have
:03:16. > :03:23.brainwashed into becoming suicide bombers? 36% of Afghan people live
:03:23. > :03:28.in poverty. So what why not do not speak about women at all, that
:03:28. > :03:34.focus on all people becoming better educated? I think I'm doing that.
:03:34. > :03:38.We're not just focusing on women's rights but we are also focusing on
:03:38. > :03:43.human rights in the country. That covers everybody in the country.
:03:43. > :03:49.The young generation, the Auld generation, the disabled, the
:03:49. > :03:55.children and the women. We do believe that everybody should have
:03:56. > :04:03.the right to education and also a better life. That is how you see it
:04:03. > :04:08.now. In 2002 when he became part of the government, is set up the first
:04:08. > :04:11.ever women's affairs ministry and he became the first ever women's
:04:11. > :04:19.affairs minister. Why did you do that? Why didn't you say you wanted
:04:19. > :04:25.to set up a human rights ministry? There was a conference in Germany
:04:25. > :04:29.to set up a new system in Afghanistan, a new government in
:04:29. > :04:32.Afghanistan and they put me as the Minister for Women's Affairs in
:04:32. > :04:36.Afghanistan because I'll was advocating for women's
:04:36. > :04:42.participation in the government and decision-making. That was not my
:04:42. > :04:46.personal choice. They put me over there without asking me, without
:04:47. > :04:52.consulting me. You could have said no, you could have said can I make
:04:52. > :04:56.it a social affairs ministry and advance the rights of the
:04:56. > :05:03.disadvantaged and decide that -- disabled. And not make it a special
:05:03. > :05:08.interest Ministry. I think that the issue at that particular time was
:05:08. > :05:12.that it was -- there was a lot of violation of human rights of women
:05:12. > :05:18.in that country. In prison, in their houses. They gave me their
:05:18. > :05:22.job to help me promote women's rights. I think that without
:05:22. > :05:27.women's rights and participation of women, we would not be able to
:05:27. > :05:32.speak of a democratic society or promote a democratic society.
:05:32. > :05:40.do you think that Afghanistan is one of the worst places in the
:05:40. > :05:47.world to be a woman? 12.5 % of women in Afghanistan are illiterate.
:05:47. > :05:52.Early forced marriages, UNICEF says that young marriage accounts for
:05:53. > :05:57.40% of all marriages in Afghanistan. Why do you think that the lot of
:05:57. > :06:04.women is so bad there? Part of the reason is the continued conflict.
:06:04. > :06:08.We had been in conflict for more than three decades. Naturally, wars
:06:08. > :06:12.destroy the social structure. Nobody pays attention to basic
:06:13. > :06:21.social services, including education. Lack of education itself
:06:21. > :06:26.puts you in a very very vulnerable position. Poverty in of Dagestan
:06:26. > :06:33.continues from a lack in the country. A lot of these issues put
:06:33. > :06:38.us in a difficult situation. Corruption and so one is causing a
:06:38. > :06:43.lot of violations of human rights. Particularly women are more
:06:43. > :06:52.vulnerable to that. You accept the proposition that Afghanistan is one
:06:52. > :06:59.of the worst places to be a woman? It is very difficult. While we
:06:59. > :07:04.quoted as saying that, in Afghanistan, we're better than most
:07:04. > :07:09.countries in Asia for women's participation in government? People
:07:09. > :07:19.see only one side of the problem which is, unfortunately, the bad
:07:19. > :07:27.
:07:27. > :07:33.side. News is always focusing on a bad... I accept it. If you look at
:07:33. > :07:37.their political system for women, we have three women ministers...
:07:37. > :07:42.out of 25. Not great. It is much better than a neighbouring
:07:42. > :07:52.countries. If you look at Iran, it is one minister. Pakistan is not
:07:52. > :07:53.
:07:53. > :08:01.much. If you look at the neighbouring countries of that end
:08:01. > :08:04.a stand, it is not many. That is why I am saying that we also... it
:08:04. > :08:09.is a difficult country, and a lot of women do not have access to
:08:09. > :08:18.basic healthcare services. The women who are in the cities and are
:08:18. > :08:23.participating in politics are quite good. What is going wrong? You're
:08:23. > :08:29.saying that it is quite good but Afghanistan's national development
:08:29. > :08:37.strategy is to improve that education of women and women in
:08:37. > :08:45.public institutions. And yet you have 20% involvement down from 35%.
:08:46. > :08:50.You're going backwards. You have a lot of women as teachers. Now we
:08:50. > :08:56.have a lot of other sectors that men are involved in. There are not
:08:56. > :09:04.enough women with enough quality education to fulfil those positions.
:09:04. > :09:10.That is why we're going down. The police, the army, we don't have a
:09:10. > :09:19.lot of women. So in public service and government positions, including
:09:19. > :09:28.the police, are ignoring me. The percentage of women have gone down.
:09:28. > :09:32.When you said that if you look at our neighbours, we don't do badly.
:09:32. > :09:37.I put it to you that perhaps there is improvement or progress in other
:09:37. > :09:47.countries in Asia but in Afghanistan are going backwards?
:09:47. > :09:48.
:09:48. > :09:55.don't think we're going backwards. Because we have a say 350,000 armed
:09:55. > :10:04.forces, only 5% are women. The percentage goes up with a
:10:04. > :10:14.calculation. You need those figures, those faces. But unknown. Pakistan
:10:14. > :10:21.and Bangladesh have faces, very prominent women. You don't have
:10:21. > :10:27.that in Afghanistan. All the top positions are male. In that
:10:27. > :10:32.particular part of Asia is more advanced on women's leadership than
:10:32. > :10:41.even Europe. You do not see a lot of women in Europe who up by
:10:41. > :10:45.ministers like we have in Bangladesh. That is the point I put
:10:45. > :10:48.to you. I am just challenging and on the point where you say that our
:10:48. > :10:53.record in Afghanistan is not that bad when you look at our
:10:53. > :10:56.involvement in public institutions. When you look at the rear positions
:10:56. > :11:06.of power, these people who control the levers of power, women are
:11:06. > :11:10.absent. We should not forget that we work at war for 35 years. War
:11:10. > :11:16.itself puts women in a vulnerable position and in a weaker position
:11:16. > :11:21.than they should be. Why is that? You have conflict and poverty in
:11:21. > :11:30.other countries. He does not necessarily result in a worsening
:11:30. > :11:37.situation for women. A do not think that is the case. If you look at
:11:37. > :11:44.Somalia or, it is mainly women who are the victims of war. What does
:11:44. > :11:46.conflict have to do with the fact that in March this year, the
:11:46. > :11:51.President endorsed a religious statement that said that women were
:11:51. > :11:58.a secondary two men. They could not travel without a male relative.
:11:58. > :12:04.That they should not mix with men at work or study. I think that it
:12:04. > :12:09.was a statement. It was not really be endorsed by the present. We did
:12:09. > :12:13.criticise him on his acceptance of that. He should have had an art of
:12:13. > :12:17.voice, saying that we have a constitution and that constitution
:12:17. > :12:25.guarantees equal rights for men and women in Afghanistan. And the
:12:25. > :12:30.constitution is based on Sharia sono of the rules or laws can be
:12:30. > :12:38.imposed by the religious on us. They are not an institution to make
:12:38. > :12:46.the law changed the law. When I asked about the religious
:12:46. > :12:51.statements, what does that have to do with conflict? I think that in a
:12:51. > :12:58.conflict situation in Afghanistan or any other country, there is a
:12:58. > :13:04.group of people who gain more power. In our case because everyone was
:13:04. > :13:10.supporting the Conservative part of the society that the Conservative
:13:10. > :13:14.parts became more powerful. That is why we have this group of people
:13:14. > :13:18.will make a statement against women's rights against even the
:13:18. > :13:22.constitution of the country. So the President was trying to appease the
:13:22. > :13:27.Conservatives were made that statement? He did not acknowledge
:13:27. > :13:34.it officially. He did not prove it. He was sitting in the meeting and
:13:35. > :13:43.he did not react. But it will become fat? I do not think so.
:13:43. > :13:47.you not going say to him - what did you saying? I just went to the
:13:47. > :13:57.media and said that we have a constitution and that constitution
:13:57. > :13:58.
:13:58. > :14:01.is based on Sharia. Council does So there is not the institution to
:14:01. > :14:06.make the law. The law is passed and that's it.
:14:06. > :14:11.You bring up the issue of law and you do advocate for women's rights
:14:11. > :14:15.being enshrined in the law. I put it to you that for many people in
:14:15. > :14:20.traditional or conservative societies, their own cultural
:14:20. > :14:24.imperatives Trumper law every time. Take early marriage. Child marriage
:14:24. > :14:31.is illegal in Afghanistan, and it nearly half of all weddings that
:14:31. > :14:36.take place in the country are child marriages. It is not legal to have
:14:36. > :14:46.child marriages and forced marriages. But the problem is that
:14:46. > :14:50.
:14:50. > :15:00.we still are struggling in order to is not legal, the religious leader
:15:00. > :15:00.
:15:00. > :15:40.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds
:15:40. > :15:45.Up and the advocate for justice. -- we do take the cases up. In most,
:15:45. > :15:49.we can bring that perpetrated to justice, to push the government to
:15:49. > :15:54.bring them to justice and make them accountable. Your path in upholding
:15:54. > :16:00.the rights of women in Afghanistan has been a bit controversial. As I
:16:00. > :16:06.said, he became the first women's lasted six months because of your
:16:06. > :16:09.statement about the wearing of the broker. What you said, as a medical
:16:10. > :16:14.doctor, it is a health risk and it means that women who wear them I'm
:16:14. > :16:21.not getting enough vitamin D because they are covered. Why did
:16:21. > :16:25.you say that? You were using a medical justification for an
:16:25. > :16:30.argument in which people say, actually, be a bit more bold and
:16:30. > :16:34.say if you really believe if women should not wear it because it is
:16:34. > :16:40.restrictive or unnecessary or whatever. I think I am very clear
:16:40. > :16:47.and allowed on that. I believe that a woman has the right to shoes to
:16:47. > :16:51.wear it. If it is imposed, it's a violation of human rights. -- Jews.
:16:52. > :16:56.No. Two, I did not lose the position because of the statement
:16:57. > :17:01.only. I was calling for justice and accountability. That is why I was
:17:01. > :17:05.removed from that. Dusters and accountability for what?
:17:05. > :17:10.everything in the country, particularly for the past crimes.
:17:10. > :17:14.- justice. You come from a fairly traditional background. You are one
:17:14. > :17:19.of 11 children, the traditional provincial background from an
:17:19. > :17:23.ethnic minority. You say your brothers had more freedoms than you.
:17:23. > :17:27.The odds seemed stacked against you but he still managed to carve out a
:17:28. > :17:32.career for yourself, he became a medical doctor. What is it about
:17:32. > :17:42.you that allowed you to progress like that, seemingly when things
:17:42. > :17:52.were not in your favour? I think when... I believe in equality and a
:17:52. > :17:54.
:17:54. > :17:58.easily live for yourself but I thought that I will do work that
:17:58. > :18:02.could help some other people who can't stand for their rights and
:18:02. > :18:07.they can't raise their voices. you not get you not gethat somebody
:18:07. > :18:15.will target you? You have incidences, like the woman into the
:18:15. > :18:23.Kandahar, who headed the women's units. She got shot in her car. --
:18:23. > :18:26.in 2008. Unfortunately she was shot. Other women have been killed in
:18:26. > :18:33.Afghanistan, unfortunately. But I know the risk and I decided to take
:18:33. > :18:38.it in order to make some positive change. You see a difference?
:18:38. > :18:42.How far does it help you in having a high profile like this? Arguably,
:18:42. > :18:49.if you did your work below the radar of the wood and attract so
:18:49. > :18:55.much attention and the death threats. -- then you wouldn't.
:18:55. > :18:59.sides of the work has an impact, positively. First of all, we have
:18:59. > :19:03.to do work at the grassroots to change their mentality and
:19:03. > :19:09.behaviour and improve their lives. Secondly, we have to raise our
:19:09. > :19:12.voice to be heard, that we our existing and that is the fact that
:19:13. > :19:20.people have to acknowledge. That Afghani
:19:20. > :19:26.Afghanistan at the moment can be a -- and development in the country.
:19:26. > :19:30.How far does recognition in the West helped you? You were awarded
:19:30. > :19:34.for improving the lives of women in Afghanistan, one of the most
:19:34. > :19:37.dangers places in the world. Your courageous dedication and so on.
:19:37. > :19:41.Does it help when you get international written their Asian?
:19:41. > :19:47.It does help because it's a knowledge that of the work I am
:19:47. > :19:51.doing. -- international recognition. I believe I am in the right
:19:52. > :19:58.direction. It is acknowledged by the international community also,
:19:58. > :20:02.not only my own feeling. When you have prominent members of the
:20:02. > :20:06.international community, like the then UN special envoy of
:20:06. > :20:09.Afghanistan, who said last year that one of the reasons why there
:20:09. > :20:14.is an international presence in Afghanistan is precisely to promote
:20:14. > :20:20.the rights of women. Does the championing of women's rights by
:20:20. > :20:25.Westerners like that, he is Italian of course, does that help you or is
:20:25. > :20:35.it a bit of a liability? I think it helps me because not me but the
:20:35. > :20:39.women in Afghanistan. I don't believe... It's a human value and
:20:39. > :20:47.it is universal for everybody. It doesn't matter where we live.
:20:47. > :20:51.you can then get other people, like the spokesman to the tap --
:20:51. > :20:55.Pakistani Taliban who said about the girl who was shot that she has
:20:55. > :21:00.become a symbol for western culture and even if she survives the
:21:00. > :21:04.shooting, the militants would try to kill her again. Trying to be the
:21:04. > :21:08.trade as a Western puppet, upholding Western values. It
:21:08. > :21:14.doesn't help arguably if you are championed by the West, does it?
:21:14. > :21:20.don't think that the case. I keep saying it is and Western values.
:21:20. > :21:23.Access to education is a basic human right. -- it is not western.
:21:23. > :21:27.Everybody should have access to education, wherever they live. It
:21:27. > :21:32.does not matter if you are in Pakistan, Afghanistan or London.
:21:32. > :21:37.Everybody should have access to education. Those people who try to
:21:37. > :21:43.impose the mentality as a principal and blaming others who believe in
:21:43. > :21:49.human rights and equal rights as a Western value, in order to reduce
:21:49. > :21:52.your impact on the society. when you have a lot of human rights
:21:52. > :21:55.groups inside and outside Afghanistan urging Hillary Clinton
:21:55. > :22:02.to publicly renounce a strategy to protect human rights before she
:22:02. > :22:07.leaves office, critics could say you are conflating women's rights
:22:07. > :22:12.with the American presence in Afghanistan and that is not going
:22:12. > :22:18.to be particularly helpful? I don't think that is the case. Nobody can
:22:18. > :22:23.deny the impact of the US everywhere in the world. They are
:22:23. > :22:31.the only superpower currently. you want to see Hillary Clinton to
:22:31. > :22:35.such a thing? I think she is advocating for women's rights
:22:35. > :22:40.everywhere, not only Afghanistan. But because of their active
:22:40. > :22:45.engagement in Afghanistan, she has the responsibility to do it, in my
:22:45. > :22:51.view. Because we have at least the same objective and same goal, in
:22:51. > :22:55.order to promote democracy in Afghanistan. We can't really reach
:22:55. > :23:01.a democratic society without full participation of women. That is
:23:01. > :23:05.very clear. Finally, when you look around the other Muslim countries
:23:05. > :23:09.and you see the post Arab Spring countries, where there are many
:23:09. > :23:13.liberal and secular list them are among them, who feel rights for
:23:13. > :23:17.women may be eroded in countries like Egypt and Tunisia because of
:23:17. > :23:20.the new constitutions drawn up, do you see a trend in was when nations,
:23:20. > :23:29.that women's rights, rather than progressing, are actually going
:23:29. > :23:34.backwards? IT is a political agenda that the people who become in power,
:23:34. > :23:42.they try to impose their mentality on people. And control half of the
:23:42. > :23:48.population easily by using religion in culture in order to continue
:23:48. > :23:53.benefiting from the situation. I am not very pessimistic in that case.
:23:53. > :24:00.I think women in Egypt and Tunisia and any other countries, they
:24:00. > :24:04.realise they should stand for their rights and they should do it. They