:00:09. > :00:13.before -- in August last year. It is now time for HARDtalk.
:00:13. > :00:16.The politics of Palestine are in a state of flux. Palestinian
:00:16. > :00:18.Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and the stalwarts of his Fatah
:00:18. > :00:21.movement face a crisis of credibility; they've been
:00:21. > :00:31.outmanoeuvred in recent weeks by the hardliners in Hamas whose
:00:31. > :00:35.
:00:35. > :00:38.message is defiance, not diplomacy. My guest today is the Palestinian
:00:38. > :00:48.Authority envoy to the European Union Leila Shahid. Is the game up
:00:48. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:16.for Palestine's old guard Leila Shahid in Brussels, welcome
:01:17. > :01:22.to HARDtalk. Thank you. How much credibility do you believe that
:01:22. > :01:28.Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has right now? With
:01:28. > :01:33.his own people? I think the historic success of the vote at the
:01:34. > :01:39.UN for a non-member observer status for Palestine as a state has
:01:39. > :01:44.reinforced tremendously the choices made by a keen for the last 30
:01:45. > :01:49.years, which are choices of a negotiation for peace, based on the
:01:49. > :01:54.to step solution. I would say his failure
:01:54. > :02:00.failure of the peace process for almost 20 years. Yasser Arafat,
:02:00. > :02:04.when we started the negotiations, ask mum would and bass and the
:02:04. > :02:10.vice-president at the time to be in charge of these talks, both in
:02:10. > :02:20.Washington and in Oslo. -- Mahmoud Abbas. The fact we failed to end
:02:20. > :02:24.the occupation and even implement in Oslo after the hazardous --
:02:24. > :02:27.assassination, undermined the authority. It continues to
:02:27. > :02:33.undermine that entire approach. You say he made the choice for a
:02:33. > :02:38.negotiated peace understood but that choice lead to failure. Yes.
:02:38. > :02:45.But part of that choice, of course, is to get the world to recognise us
:02:45. > :02:50.as a nation, as a state, with clear terms, borders, with the right of
:02:50. > :02:57.refugees. That was all done through an overwhelming majority vote at
:02:57. > :03:02.the UN in New York on 20th November. But if I may say so, I imagine that
:03:02. > :03:08.did excite you, particularly as you work in the diplomatic world.
:03:08. > :03:16.Don't worry. We also saw a joyous scenes in Palestine. It is, in the
:03:16. > :03:21.end, symbolism. It's a token. But it does not, as Susan Rice said,
:03:21. > :03:26.change the realities of life on the ground for Palestinians. I think
:03:26. > :03:30.you are totally wrong. You do not understand the Palestinian issue,
:03:30. > :03:34.that's all about recognition and about the duty of the world powers
:03:34. > :03:38.and particularly the members of the UN in implementing the solutions
:03:38. > :03:43.that they have voted. We are not fighting over the number of
:03:43. > :03:50.kilometres or the prestige of Leila Shahid or others. You are too
:03:50. > :03:54.influenced by the American position. It is important because it has made
:03:54. > :04:00.the terms of reference of what has been the basis of negotiation for
:04:01. > :04:05.20 years now been adopted position of the 138 states that voted. This
:04:05. > :04:10.is not nothing. Of course we need to implement this in terms of
:04:10. > :04:15.diplomacy. We need to make Britain, France, the EU, the US and all of
:04:15. > :04:19.the important members of the Security Council and the General
:04:19. > :04:25.Assembly implement the resolutions. We need the political will of the
:04:25. > :04:30.member state. Obviously, it is not new that we have chosen, since Oslo
:04:30. > :04:36.and the negotiated settlement. Have mass has chosen since 1987, 20
:04:36. > :04:39.years ago, a military one. The choices are clear. Not only clear
:04:39. > :04:43.for the Palestinians, they are clear for the Israelis and they
:04:43. > :04:49.should be clear for the world community. What you have, when you
:04:49. > :04:55.actually strip it down, is the same Kimmel -- diplomatic status in the
:04:55. > :05:01.UN as the Vatican. That is what was actually achieved. No... The cold
:05:01. > :05:07.hard fact is that in the latest opinion polling evidence, 20% of
:05:07. > :05:13.Palestinians currently believe that peace can and will come through the
:05:13. > :05:18.strategic toys you and your boss, Mahmoud Abbas, have made, which is
:05:18. > :05:24.Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations. -- choice. You know
:05:24. > :05:27.why it is 20%? It is not because the President can't deliver, it is
:05:27. > :05:33.because Binyamin Netanyahu is not interested in peace. The boat is
:05:33. > :05:36.not in the camp of the President or Binyamin Netanyahu. The vote is in
:05:37. > :05:40.the camp of the world community. We are talking about an area of the
:05:40. > :05:47.world which is the heart of the Mediterranean, the Middle East. We
:05:47. > :05:52.have turmoil in Egypt, a war going on against Syria, Lebanon waiting,
:05:52. > :05:57.two superpowers who want to have their own like Iran and Turkey. The
:05:57. > :06:02.stakes are very high. The whole world needs peace. But I am
:06:02. > :06:05.struggling to understand your logic. You tell me there can be no going
:06:05. > :06:10.back on the strategic choice for a negotiated peace with Israel, and
:06:10. > :06:15.yet we are talking about an Israeli government, soon they will have
:06:15. > :06:20.elections, and we are talking about a government that since the vote at
:06:20. > :06:26.the UN has pushed through proposals for another 3,000 housing units on
:06:26. > :06:29.occupied land, which will continue to build that ring around Arab east
:06:29. > :06:34.Jerusalem. A government that will now take, we believe for the next
:06:34. > :06:38.four months at least, hundreds of millions of dollars of tax receipts,
:06:38. > :06:43.which should be handed to Palestinian authorities and they
:06:43. > :06:47.will not hand them over. You insist this government must be negotiating
:06:47. > :06:53.partner. But we are not talking to that government. We are talking to
:06:53. > :06:57.you, to the union,... But I can't make peace with you. The only
:06:57. > :07:02.people who can make peace with you are the Israelis. But they do not
:07:02. > :07:09.come from us. They come from part of the world community, with whom
:07:09. > :07:12.the EU has won relations with. The American one military relations.
:07:12. > :07:18.Britain has abstained from recognising Palestine in order not
:07:18. > :07:22.to disturb Mr Binyamin Netanyahu. There are means to make Israel
:07:22. > :07:25.accountable, like we made so be accountable, like we make all
:07:25. > :07:30.occupying powers accountable. The problem is not only Israel, it is
:07:30. > :07:34.the duty of Israel in its World relations, with economic or
:07:34. > :07:38.financial or diplomatic. Of course they can always be a return to
:07:38. > :07:42.violence or military operations, that will be led by whoever
:07:42. > :07:46.believes in it. Hamas or any other movement. But we are saying there
:07:47. > :07:51.is still a chance, if the world community has the will, to make his
:07:51. > :08:01.rail accountable and to end the QUT of Israel in terms of up to two --
:08:01. > :08:06.
:08:06. > :08:13.of UK Nishi, annexation, settlement. I think what we have seen in the
:08:13. > :08:21.policies of Binyamin Netanyahu is a consequence of his impunity.
:08:21. > :08:24.Europeans should take care of their own actions. How can Europeans are
:08:24. > :08:32.being attacked in such an arrogant way by the Foreign Minister of
:08:32. > :08:35.Israel? How come they received him and gave him, in the new Israeli-
:08:35. > :08:40.European association agreement, all the trade agreements Israel wants?
:08:41. > :08:45.There is a responsibility in third parties. It is not only a matter of
:08:45. > :08:49.between the President and Mr Netanyahu. The more you attack
:08:49. > :08:52.Binyamin Netanyahu or the Foreign Minister of Israel, the more I
:08:52. > :08:57.think you are simply using this sort of rhetoric and language which
:08:57. > :09:02.fits more easily into the strategic vision of how mass. We have seen
:09:02. > :09:06.the exiled leader of Hamas in the last few days make what he would
:09:06. > :09:11.call a triumphant return to Palestinian soil in the Gaza Strip.
:09:11. > :09:15.His message was utterly uncompromising. He said that
:09:15. > :09:21.liberation will come to every inch of Palestinian soil, from the
:09:21. > :09:24.Mediterranean seek to the River Jordan. That is a message that is
:09:24. > :09:29.absolutely unyielding and uncompromising. Backed by violence
:09:29. > :09:33.from time to time, which right now appears to appeal to an increasing
:09:33. > :09:38.constituency on the ground in the Palestinian territories.
:09:38. > :09:42.surprising, given the fact that there has been no implementation of
:09:42. > :09:47.the two-state solution. We did go to the UN in order to stave this to
:09:47. > :09:51.take -- to state solution. Europeans pay lip service to the
:09:51. > :09:54.two-state solution, including President Obama. What we are trying
:09:54. > :10:00.to do is implement the two states solution. There is a difference
:10:00. > :10:04.between our choice and Hamas' toys. It is obvious that when you are
:10:04. > :10:09.occupied for 45 years, you do not expect me to be nice to my occupier.
:10:09. > :10:16.-- choice. There is something which is obvious, that this occupation
:10:16. > :10:22.has been too long and has been totally UN sanctioned and the world
:10:22. > :10:27.community has shown total failure in making Israel respect its own
:10:27. > :10:31.commitments. -- UN sanctions. point I am getting at is the
:10:31. > :10:37.Palestinians have a choice. Perhaps the nature of the choice is best
:10:37. > :10:42.summed up by an analyst who, I dare say, you know. 11 his analyst.
:10:42. > :10:46.know him very well. This he wrote the other day. -- a Lebanese
:10:46. > :10:51.analyst. This was after the exchange of fire between Hannah's
:10:51. > :10:55.and Israel. It was called the killer of defence operation. He
:10:55. > :10:59.said Hamas has strong lines for the policy of resisted and violence.
:10:59. > :11:04.They have achieved more grounds of through violence than the
:11:04. > :11:13.Palestinian Authority has to non- violence. This is his opinion. If
:11:13. > :11:17.you look at what happened, you realise that Hamas was a motor --
:11:17. > :11:23.motivated because it realised that it could not perform a longer
:11:23. > :11:28.military occupation by Israel and another operation like the one that
:11:28. > :11:32.destroyed Gaza and killed 1,400 civilians three years ago. This is
:11:32. > :11:38.why I think the military operation... You might think in
:11:38. > :11:42.that speech there was only radical expression but the other speech was
:11:42. > :11:48.also an acceptance that maybe military means are not the only
:11:48. > :11:51.ones. The Palestinians ultimately want neither negotiate since
:11:51. > :11:58.forever or launching missile. What they want is freedom, sovereignty
:11:58. > :12:02.and dignity. Anybody that can bring them that will... That is the
:12:02. > :12:06.message they are expressing. There is a question about how you get
:12:06. > :12:12.there and have you retain your dignity. One other thing, comparing
:12:12. > :12:18.and contrasting the message with the President's message. It gets to
:12:18. > :12:23.the issue of the right of return, as it is called, for Palestinians
:12:23. > :12:27.who in 1948 and 1967 were removed from their family homes and their
:12:27. > :12:32.land. They were not removed, they were ethnically cleansed. Not
:12:32. > :12:38.removed. Including my own family. am just sticking to... That is the
:12:38. > :12:42.way it happened. Let's get to the heart of the matter. Mahmoud Abbas
:12:42. > :12:47.told Israel's channel to that he would like to return to his family
:12:47. > :12:52.home, inside Israel. He said as a visitor, it is my right to see it
:12:52. > :12:56.but not to live there. He went on to say, I believe the West Bank and
:12:56. > :13:04.Gaza is Palestine, the other parts are Israel. Is that your position
:13:04. > :13:09.as well? We have recognised Israel in 1988, but Israel has not
:13:09. > :13:14.recognised Palestine. We recognised the borders between the two states.
:13:14. > :13:18.We also have insisted that our right of return under the
:13:18. > :13:22.resolution 194 of the General Assembly of the United Nations is
:13:22. > :13:27.the basis for our negotiations on a right of return. I want to get more
:13:27. > :13:32.personal than that. If you let me just finish my sentences! But you
:13:32. > :13:38.gave me a diplomatic answer. I want your personal answer. I am trying
:13:38. > :13:43.to finish the sentence! I have the right for my right to return, if I
:13:43. > :13:47.want to. If I don't want to, it is also a right. The President is six
:13:47. > :13:51.-- is expressing that. He says every refugee will have the right
:13:51. > :13:57.to choose whether he wants to return, stay where he is or whether
:13:57. > :14:05.he wants to get compensation. This is Resolution 194 and is what was
:14:05. > :14:08.expressed and what most Let me talk about the idea of
:14:08. > :14:14.reconciliation between the Palestinian Authority driving force,
:14:14. > :14:18.and Hamas. In Turkey, in the last day or two, Mahmoud Abbas has said
:14:18. > :14:23.that his key focus is on establishing Palestinian unity. Why
:14:23. > :14:28.is it in that case, the Palestinian Authority continue to suppress
:14:28. > :14:33.Hamas activity right across the West Bank? They suppress Hamas
:14:33. > :14:38.activity when Hamas are fit it -- activity is against the agreement
:14:38. > :14:43.that we signed. We are the responsible authority. When Hamas
:14:44. > :14:47.does political activity it is most welcome, we have allowed them to
:14:47. > :14:52.celebrate his 25th anniversary in the West Bank as much as anyone
:14:52. > :14:56.else, but when it is military activity against the agreement that
:14:56. > :15:01.we signed with the Israeli authorities, it is our duty to
:15:02. > :15:05.implement what we signed. We take seriously what we signed. The
:15:05. > :15:09.President said that when we have considered that we have totally
:15:09. > :15:13.failed and we do not believe in negotiated agreement, then we would
:15:13. > :15:19.take the decisions to say that we have failed and the Palestinians
:15:19. > :15:23.are free to choose any other path they want, including a military one.
:15:23. > :15:30.Where does that leave freedom of expression, the most basic sorts of
:15:31. > :15:36.human rights. I am astonished... you accuse me of interrupting. The
:15:36. > :15:43.human rights report a 2012 say the Palestinian authorities secrete his
:15:43. > :15:48.services arbitrarily detained hundreds of Hamas people. --
:15:48. > :15:53.security services. Credible allegations of torture by the
:15:54. > :15:58.security services continue. That is the reality, isn't it? I am
:15:58. > :16:03.astonished that you are so concerned about the violations on
:16:03. > :16:08.our side but not the five Nations on the other side, including Israel.
:16:08. > :16:13.-- the violations. It is unfortunate that there are
:16:13. > :16:18.violations, not just against Hamas, but anybody who is perceived
:16:18. > :16:24.against the stability -- as a threat against the stability of
:16:24. > :16:27.beat a authority. You cannot have a legal system under occupation. You
:16:28. > :16:32.have to be a fully fledged a democratic state because you need a
:16:32. > :16:37.parliament, you need laws, in the constitution, we do not have any of
:16:37. > :16:41.this in order to have a legal system that really what is over the
:16:41. > :16:48.institutions, whether they are the police or the Secret Service, and
:16:48. > :16:55.we have a lot to do. I am the ambassador to the EU. The EU what
:16:56. > :17:00.is much more closely than any other NGO on violations of human rights.
:17:00. > :17:05.There are all of these action plan negotiations, including on the
:17:05. > :17:11.government. It is a daily struggle to achieve it. We have achieved
:17:11. > :17:16.everything. I am wondering about the rhetoric. Mahmoud Abbas tells
:17:16. > :17:19.the Palestinian people that achieving this UN observer status
:17:19. > :17:24.is the birth certificate of the Palestinian state, but clearly many
:17:24. > :17:27.people would disagree with that, but then he goes on to say, the
:17:27. > :17:32.whole world will now and must see a single state when looking at
:17:32. > :17:38.Palestine. He says that unity, a reconciliation with Hamas is just
:17:38. > :17:43.around the corner. It does not seem credible. You add around the corner.
:17:43. > :17:50.If you want to look at the story of the Palestinian national movement
:17:50. > :17:56.since 1964, since it was found dead, -- found it, and I think the
:17:56. > :18:02.pressure on the President, but also on the leaders of Hamas, is
:18:02. > :18:06.tremendous. Some members of the population will have a member from
:18:06. > :18:12.Hamas and a member of the authority in the same family. This is a
:18:12. > :18:16.struggle that has been going on for 65 years. We are not afraid of the
:18:16. > :18:21.diversity of opinions, what we want to do is to reach a solution to end
:18:21. > :18:28.the divisions. We cannot accept that Gaza and the West Bank is
:18:28. > :18:31.divided. The same forces that are talking to Hamas, including in
:18:32. > :18:36.Britain, this is why we can only go back to elections in order to give
:18:36. > :18:40.everybody a chance, and the population would choose. But in
:18:40. > :18:45.order to do that, we need a reconciliation, and I think
:18:45. > :18:52.division has been very negative for all sides. This is what Mahmoud
:18:52. > :18:56.Abbas would try to do in the coming weeks. Even when Hamas refused to
:18:56. > :19:02.fight in the recent municipal elections, that I did not do very
:19:02. > :19:09.well. The turnout was only over 40%, including in some of the key towns,
:19:09. > :19:19.and they could not even win a majority. Let me just explain. It
:19:19. > :19:29.is more complicated. We had more than one list. Not the official
:19:29. > :19:33.list. The very much not the official list. But they are members.
:19:33. > :19:38.One reason why so many members of the organisation I deeply critical
:19:38. > :19:44.of the leadership is corruption. You must be aware, sitting in
:19:45. > :19:48.Brussels, representing them, there is a cascade of allegations of
:19:48. > :19:55.corruption going to the very top of the Palestinian Authority. Over the
:19:55. > :20:02.last two years, we had seen the leadership stayed fairly --
:20:02. > :20:06.steadfastly refuse to prove whether these allegations stand-up. The EU
:20:06. > :20:12.has the most great institutions to observe corruption. There is
:20:12. > :20:19.corruption but not what it you think. It is not about stealing
:20:19. > :20:23.money. I cannot imagine that at all. Two years ago, the anti-corruption
:20:23. > :20:26.chief who had been commissioned to look into corruption, told the
:20:26. > :20:31.press that there was massive corruption in the Palestinian
:20:31. > :20:36.Authority. He said that people are fed up with the financial
:20:36. > :20:40.corruption and mismanagement. make the questions and the answers.
:20:40. > :20:46.The official institutions of the EU, who are in charge of corruption of
:20:46. > :20:51.all the parties, has not been able to show one case of corruption in
:20:52. > :20:57.terms of stealing money. The corruption is in the system. What
:20:57. > :21:01.we need is to go back to a normal life, a normal life means of
:21:01. > :21:06.freedom, sovereignty, elections, democratic institutions, a
:21:06. > :21:10.parliament and a President. All of this means an end of occupation.
:21:10. > :21:14.There is no way you are going to convince me that you can build
:21:14. > :21:18.democracies without freedom, citizens cannot express themselves,
:21:18. > :21:22.they would not be able to protect their own rights and
:21:23. > :21:27.accomplishments, unless they are free to do so. We have not had a
:21:27. > :21:33.working parliament for the last five years. For all these reasons,
:21:33. > :21:37.I think we have a lot of hard work to do, and in order to do it, we
:21:37. > :21:42.are sure that we need reconciliation, and ended to
:21:42. > :21:46.occupation, freedom and statehood. To finish on the thought of
:21:46. > :21:50.corruption and where it fits into the big picture, you know because
:21:50. > :21:55.your own President said that the economy situation, the budget
:21:56. > :21:59.situation is very bad. It is close to collapse in his words. He is
:22:00. > :22:07.desperately trying to give the Arab -- get the Arab states to give him
:22:08. > :22:13.more money. At the same time, we see the Congress are holding
:22:13. > :22:17.hearings about corruption in the Palestinian establishment. Why
:22:17. > :22:21.would be key donors continue to give hundreds of millions of
:22:21. > :22:29.dollars to the Palestinian Authority if this quote a quote
:22:29. > :22:33.plutocracy continues. You seem not to read this report. The
:22:33. > :22:38.transparency, accountability of the government of Mahmoud Abbas is
:22:38. > :22:45.probably better than a lot of the member states of the region. With
:22:46. > :22:49.respect, I do read those reports. I read the Palestinian former
:22:49. > :22:53.investigators who accuse the key officials in your authority of
:22:53. > :22:57.corruption, I read how many Palestinians on the ground believe
:22:58. > :23:02.that there is dishonesty at the top of your administration. There is
:23:02. > :23:06.lots of sourcing for this, and you seem to be adamant that not a penny
:23:07. > :23:11.has been stolen. I am talking about the pennies that the donors give it.
:23:11. > :23:18.I can promise you, if there has been one single penny stolen from
:23:18. > :23:23.donor money, there would not be any donor money. What is not alone in
:23:23. > :23:27.his relations that have some nepotism between some parties, and
:23:27. > :23:30.this is a public discussion. It is a more public discussion in a
:23:30. > :23:35.country like Palestine under occupation than many independent
:23:35. > :23:41.states, including in the EU, because of corruption on for
:23:41. > :23:51.Oceanway comes with politics, and particularly when there is a