:00:03. > :00:13.year. That is the summary. Now on BBC News, HARDtalk is on
:00:13. > :00:30.
:00:30. > :00:40.HARDtalk is on the Road in Equatorial Guinea. A tiny, oil rich
:00:40. > :00:41.
:00:41. > :00:50.nation in West Africa. There is enormous wealth here but most of
:00:50. > :00:54.the people live in poverty. Why? That's a question for my guest
:00:54. > :00:57.today, President Theodore Obiang, one of the longest serving heads of
:00:57. > :01:00.state in the world. He calls himself a moderniser, a reformer,
:01:00. > :01:03.his critics say he and his family have systematically looted this
:01:03. > :01:13.country and crushed human rights. How will history judge one of
:01:13. > :01:18.
:01:18. > :01:23.President Theodore Obiang, welcome to HARDtalk. You have great good
:01:23. > :01:33.fortune that 20 years ago you discovered oil in this country. It
:01:33. > :01:35.
:01:35. > :01:45.has made the state immensely wealthy. Why is it, given that
:01:45. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:27.wealth, that the majority of people Mr President, when you say there's
:02:27. > :02:30.no poverty, you must know, as I do, that a couple of kilometres from
:02:30. > :02:33.this very fine presidential palace, there are people living without
:02:33. > :02:43.safe and clean drinking water, without access to good health care,
:02:43. > :02:43.
:02:43. > :02:46.without access to decent schools for their children. This is the
:02:47. > :02:56.kind of poverty that should not exist in a country that enjoys
:02:57. > :03:36.
:03:36. > :03:40.But you have had 33 years. It seems extraordinary that after that
:03:40. > :03:43.length of time, according to UN and the World Bank, we have a life
:03:43. > :03:47.expectancy for men little more than 50 years old in this country. We
:03:47. > :03:50.have more than 10% of children who are dying before they reach the age
:03:50. > :04:00.of five. These are figures that suggest frankly that you have
:04:00. > :04:34.
:04:34. > :04:38.Mr President, there are investigators and legal officials
:04:38. > :04:46.in the United States, in France, who have blocked at the way in
:04:46. > :04:51.which the state finances have been handled in this country. And they
:04:51. > :04:55.have reached some very negative conclusions. Legal documents in the
:04:55. > :04:58.United States refer to, and this is a direct quote, "An ongoing family
:04:58. > :05:04.criminal conspiracy," Referring to you and your family and the
:05:04. > :05:14.handling of the oil revenues in this country. How do you respond to
:05:14. > :05:54.
:05:54. > :05:57.If everything was handled in a legitimate way, and was all about
:05:57. > :06:01.the state rather than your family benefiting, how do you explain that
:06:01. > :06:04.your own son apparently has assets in the United States, which include
:06:04. > :06:07.a Malibu mansion, a private jet, a collection of Michael Jackson
:06:07. > :06:10.memorabilia worth $2 million, in total assets worth hundreds of
:06:10. > :06:14.millions of US dollars, which of course the United States now wants
:06:14. > :06:24.to seize and take from you, because they believe they are sourced from
:06:24. > :06:24.
:06:24. > :07:18.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds
:07:18. > :07:22.illegal means. How can you explain We are able to scrutinise some of
:07:22. > :07:25.the information already. I don't know if you have read the 100 pages
:07:25. > :07:29.of the Justice Department report into the case of your son, Teodorin
:07:29. > :07:37.Obiang. It goes into great detail of exactly what he did when he was
:07:37. > :07:39.in charge of the Logging and Forestry Ministry. He, apparently,
:07:39. > :07:44.according to the United States authorities, had companies pay
:07:44. > :07:48.millions of dollars in kickbacks to himself. At one point he is said to
:07:48. > :07:53.have imposed a tax of 28 US dollars on every log that was exported from
:07:53. > :08:03.your country into a bank account that he personally controlled. Are
:08:03. > :08:36.
:08:36. > :08:40.Bearing in mind what we have already discussed in our interview
:08:40. > :08:45.the fact there are people living in this country, many of them, without
:08:45. > :08:49.access to clean drinking water, still struggling to find a job. Is
:08:49. > :08:52.it right, is it acceptable, that your own son, for example in Paris,
:08:53. > :08:55.has a mansion worth almost EUR200 million, has a fleet of a dozen
:08:55. > :09:05.luxury cars, including Ferraris, Bugattis, Rolls-Royces, and he has
:09:05. > :09:05.
:09:05. > :09:15.bought antiques and art work worth millions of euros. Do you not think
:09:15. > :09:44.
:09:44. > :09:47.But hang on, with respect... How There is a very difficult line to
:09:47. > :09:54.draw between the state and the family. We are talking about your
:09:54. > :09:57.son, who is now the vice-president. We are also talking about a
:09:57. > :10:02.government which includes your other son, who is Minister of
:10:02. > :10:06.Energy and Mines. We are talking about a government that includes
:10:06. > :10:16.your brother, who is Minister of Defence. It looks as though you run
:10:16. > :10:46.
:10:46. > :10:55.The French government has seized the Paris mansion, the art works,
:10:55. > :10:59.the cars, and is seeking a legal action against your son. Are you
:10:59. > :11:09.prepared to see your son go to Paris and defend himself and his
:11:09. > :11:09.
:11:09. > :12:06.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds
:12:06. > :12:10.Leave aside France, what do you say to the people in your own country,
:12:10. > :12:13.and I have spoken to some of them, who say that you and your family
:12:13. > :12:23.have stolen... Stolen the resources and the assets that rightfully
:12:23. > :12:54.
:12:54. > :12:56.belong to all of the people of this If I may say so, you talk about the
:12:56. > :12:59.infrastructure, the development that you are doing in this country.
:13:00. > :13:09.Let me ask you one very simple question, how many presidential
:13:10. > :13:23.
:13:23. > :13:26.palaces are there now in this But if I may... If I may say so,
:13:26. > :13:30.you have very fine presidential residences in Malabo, another one
:13:30. > :13:40.in Malabo, one in Bata, one that is going to be built in Oyala, how
:13:40. > :14:00.
:14:00. > :14:10.Leave aside the houses, I want to talk about your planned
:14:10. > :14:20.
:14:20. > :14:24.administrative capital in Oyala. It is an immense project. We were
:14:24. > :14:27.lucky enough to visit just a couple of days ago. So far you have begun
:14:27. > :14:31.construction work on a major new university, also on a luxury hotel
:14:31. > :14:34.and conference centre and golf course. I am curious to know why
:14:34. > :14:44.you think that is the best way to develop this country economically
:14:44. > :14:44.
:14:44. > :15:36.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds
:15:36. > :15:39.and socially in the interests of I understand. I just wondered, the
:15:39. > :15:43.two projects we have already talked about, the university, hotel resort,
:15:43. > :15:53.they are going to cost more than half a billion euros, I just wonder
:15:53. > :16:02.
:16:02. > :16:12.if it is the best use of the oil money that this nation has. Do you
:16:12. > :16:17.
:16:17. > :16:20.believe it is the right priority I need to be informed about what
:16:20. > :16:25.happened in this country, but surely your own people need to be
:16:25. > :16:28.informed as well. For example, events in North Africa concerned
:16:28. > :16:36.with the Arab uprising. Why has so little information being given
:16:36. > :16:46.about the events in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia? Do you fear similar
:16:46. > :17:15.
:17:15. > :17:24.The International Committee to Protect Journalists has your
:17:24. > :17:27.country in the top five most censored countries in the world.
:17:27. > :17:37.Why do so many international organisations worry about the
:17:37. > :17:56.
:17:56. > :18:06.I do want to ask you about your relations with the international
:18:06. > :18:07.
:18:07. > :18:10.community. I think it is fair to say you have worked very hard with
:18:10. > :18:14.the African Cup of Nations, the African Union summit that you have
:18:14. > :18:22.held, you have worked very hard to improve the international standing
:18:22. > :18:24.of Equatorial Guinea. Yet, we have seen since 2004 an attempted coup
:18:24. > :18:27.which involved international mercenaries and money coming from
:18:27. > :18:37.Mark Thatcher, the son of the former British Prime Minister,
:18:37. > :18:39.
:18:39. > :18:49.Margaret Thatcher. Do you think the Western nations in particular want
:18:49. > :18:49.
:18:49. > :19:48.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds
:19:48. > :19:58.Do you think that governments... You think that the governments you
:19:58. > :20:38.
:20:38. > :20:42.mentioned were complicit in the If that is true Mr President, what
:20:42. > :20:52.you say, if it is true, why is it that you still allow US oil
:20:52. > :21:06.
:21:06. > :21:09.companies to dominate oil production in this country? I look
:21:09. > :21:12.at the figures and I think that the biggest 10 companies involved in
:21:12. > :21:22.oil exploration are American. You seem to have a very complicated
:21:22. > :21:41.
:21:41. > :21:45.I just wonder for the future if you see a strategic shift for this
:21:45. > :21:48.country. I have been very struck as I have travelled around the country
:21:48. > :21:58.by the number of infrastructure projects that are being run and
:21:58. > :22:32.
:22:32. > :22:35.financed by Chinese companies and A final question, last year you
:22:35. > :22:38.held a referendum on a new constitution. It sets term limits
:22:39. > :22:42.on the presidency of two seven-year terms being the maximum for a
:22:42. > :22:52.president in Equatorial Guinea. Because of your presence for a long
:22:52. > :23:02.