:00:11. > :00:17.Park Chung-hee. Now it is tone for HARDtalk. -- now it is time. How
:00:18. > :00:25.far is the Arab world's most populous and influential country
:00:25. > :00:30.becoming polarised between Islamist as secularist forces? The current
:00:30. > :00:35.Ward for a new constitution in Egypt has exposed divisions which
:00:35. > :00:39.at times have erupted into violence on the streets betweets betwe
:00:39. > :00:44.supporters and the poor is of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Islamist
:00:44. > :00:50.President of Mohammed Morsi. My guest today is the Coptic Christian
:00:50. > :01:00.and billionaire, Naguib Sawiris. Who has a better claim to be
:01:00. > :01:16.
:01:16. > :01:22.democratic, the Islamists or their Naguib Sawiris, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:22. > :01:26.Thank you. I put it to you that liberals and secularists like you
:01:26. > :01:32.are finding it hard to accept that Islamist parties are more popular
:01:32. > :01:40.in Egypt. I think if you do an election today bridge is supervised
:01:40. > :01:44.by international observers and his transparent and clean, unlike the
:01:44. > :01:48.rigged voting of nowhere, the people would not vote for them any
:01:48. > :01:54.more. They would not have a majority any more. We cannot deal
:01:54. > :02:01.with hypothetical. In the elections that we had one year or so ago, the
:02:01. > :02:05.Islamist parties, the Muslim brother up that -- the Muslim
:02:05. > :02:13.Brotherhood and other Islamist parties won the majority of the
:02:13. > :02:21.vote. What I am seeing is the circumstances, with the new
:02:21. > :02:25.government of Egypt, it hearing by a democratic rules, -- adhering to
:02:25. > :02:30.democratic rules, there will be changes. They will not control
:02:30. > :02:35.newspapers. They will not put their own people everywhere. That will
:02:35. > :02:40.allow a real democratic process to happen. People are open for a
:02:40. > :02:46.Democratic revival immediate. Nothing has happened. -- people are
:02:46. > :02:50.hoping. I am claiming that today, if an honest, transparent and
:02:50. > :02:55.supervised election is run, they will not be so popular. You know
:02:55. > :02:59.there was a report by an American polling organisation in February
:02:59. > :03:06.that said a majority of the Egyptians not all we want democracy
:03:06. > :03:12.but they want and enhanced role for Islam. This is true. You're going
:03:12. > :03:18.against the grain? Egyptians are religious by nature. I have no
:03:18. > :03:23.problems with any religion. I believe in separation of state and
:03:23. > :03:27.religion. That is my nature. I am not good to put my views on the
:03:27. > :03:32.majority of the people. I accept that because Egyptians are
:03:32. > :03:38.religious. Between February and now, the mood has changed. People have
:03:38. > :03:41.changed their opinions. I was willing to cooperate with Mohammed
:03:41. > :03:46.Morsi and the Muslims to elevate Egypt out of the economic mess it
:03:46. > :03:51.is in. We were not given a chance because, but respect, they made a
:03:51. > :03:55.fatal mistake. They went against the opposition. They do not
:03:55. > :04:00.understand the fact that there is a counter opinion in democracy. They
:04:00. > :04:10.went against freedom of speech. They went on a power struggle to
:04:10. > :04:10.
:04:10. > :06:05.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 115 seconds
:06:05. > :06:10.control all of the areas of power. It has to do with freedom and
:06:10. > :06:20.fundamental Sherman writes. I can tell you something simply, this was
:06:20. > :06:30.
:06:30. > :06:34.given to the UN to see whether it On the role of Islam, because
:06:34. > :06:39.critics like you say that it is them a greater part in the state,
:06:39. > :06:44.it is not much difference. Islam was the religion of the state and
:06:44. > :06:54.Arabic was the language. The principle of Sharia law is the main
:06:54. > :06:57.
:06:57. > :07:02.source of legislation. Article 219 is new. It includes foundations,
:07:02. > :07:09.Wall's, in jurisprudence, and documents of Islam. What is the
:07:09. > :07:17.problem with that? That is a wording that has no exact legal
:07:17. > :07:24.definition. You would allow people to elaborate about what is right
:07:24. > :07:31.and wrong according to their own suggestions. That is the reality.
:07:31. > :07:41.But the main authority, Sunni it is lamb, when it comes to women's
:07:41. > :07:41.
:07:41. > :07:51.rights... and you want a constitution, the definition of
:07:51. > :07:54.
:07:54. > :08:01.writes... why not? Why are you denying us a real democratic regime,
:08:01. > :08:05.a constitution, like the US constitution, like any other
:08:05. > :08:12.country in the world that has a constitution that says, every time
:08:12. > :08:16.that you want to do something... said you'd that the principles of
:08:16. > :08:21.Sharia law, the main legislation, is in the existing constitution.
:08:21. > :08:26.When it came to it religious minorities, you are a member of the
:08:26. > :08:30.10% of Coptic Christians in Egypt, in the old constitution, there was
:08:30. > :08:39.an article about religious minorities. In this new
:08:39. > :08:42.constitution, it said the principles of legislation, I deeply,
:08:42. > :08:50.you are going to be better off because the minorities can follow
:08:50. > :08:58.their own religious codes. Which should be more of a guarantee.
:08:58. > :09:05.agreed this is better. But the first half is completely undefined.
:09:05. > :09:10.Its words are undefined. The powers that can be given to religious
:09:10. > :09:17.forces that want to interfere, it is not my problem, Christian or
:09:17. > :09:21.Muslim, my problem is human rights, freedom of speech, minority rights.
:09:21. > :09:27.I was just putting to you and I want to know, we have seen a great
:09:27. > :09:36.deal of violence on the streets in Egypt, this constitutional
:09:36. > :09:40.referendum is... at 51%, can you agree on a referendum? Kenya have a
:09:40. > :09:50.constitution that has only been accepted by half of the people. --
:09:50. > :09:57.
:09:57. > :10:04.65 % said no to the constitution. The highest degree is in Cairo. 65
:10:04. > :10:09.% said no to the constitution. Even at that ends up 51 %, any
:10:09. > :10:14.constitution is taken by an absolute measure. That means at
:10:14. > :10:20.least 75 %, two thirds. I do not want to second-guess the result but
:10:20. > :10:25.we do not have it but you had mentioned woman's rights -- women's
:10:25. > :10:28.rights, you say that there is no discrimination in the draft. The
:10:28. > :10:33.earlier article specifically linking women's rights to Sharia
:10:33. > :10:39.law was dropped. Arguably, this new constitution gives woman more
:10:39. > :10:46.rights. Divorced and widowed women, can often get a hard deal in Egypt,
:10:46. > :10:51.a better protected. I do not agree. It I have the articles here. It
:10:51. > :10:58.seems to not say anything. Why should women be discriminated
:10:58. > :11:02.against in this constitution? is no explicit definition that
:11:02. > :11:08.women have equal rights. There is no state and that women have equal
:11:08. > :11:13.rights. That is the problem. does not say women, specifically.
:11:13. > :11:21.Article 30 says citizens are equal before the law at equal in rights
:11:22. > :11:29.and obligations. Women are citizens. Aren't they? I am trying to explain
:11:29. > :11:33.to you that admitting his part is not accepting the fact, I do not
:11:33. > :11:38.want to go through a religious context, but the Midlands have
:11:38. > :11:44.their own theories about what women are. I am not an expert on that. I
:11:44. > :11:48.do not want to go through it. talked about freedom of speech.
:11:48. > :11:51.There are 51 articles guaranteeing personal freedoms of the draft
:11:51. > :11:56.constitution compared to the old one which had 24, including the
:11:56. > :12:03.right of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. With all
:12:03. > :12:07.respect, if you read the details, it has more obstacles than the last
:12:08. > :12:14.constitution in terms of freedom of speech. Those other differences.
:12:14. > :12:18.Newspapers can write but they have to write what is true and they
:12:18. > :12:25.cannot deviate... Be going to definition. What is true and what
:12:25. > :12:28.is not a true. You are opening the door for punishment. The draft
:12:29. > :12:35.constitution is approved by a majority of people in Egypt,
:12:35. > :12:41.however slim, would you accept it? No. It has not been done in a
:12:41. > :12:46.transparent way. There has been so much for us in, it is beyond belief.
:12:46. > :12:52.It we defied minute program, I cannot tell you. Schneider 2% of
:12:52. > :13:02.the Egyptian judges boycotted it. - - 92 %. Did you do that? A number
:13:02. > :13:02.
:13:02. > :13:11.of judges. That is why the vote was spread. Judges, teachers, civil
:13:11. > :13:19.servants. If 92 %, of which the people's conscious agrees, they
:13:19. > :13:27.would not be this mood and because it was not according to the law. It
:13:27. > :13:32.does not represent everybody. Can the results of this referendum be
:13:32. > :13:38.correct? There is 3,000 complaints which have been lodged with the
:13:38. > :13:45.committee's, attacking all the procedures. There were committees
:13:45. > :13:52.where Coptic Christians were bullied not to vote. Women were
:13:52. > :13:57.left to stand for six or seven would get tired and leave. So you
:13:57. > :14:07.are claiming irregularities. What happens if the constitution is
:14:07. > :14:09.
:14:09. > :14:17.not be accepted by the National Salvation Front. We will request it
:14:17. > :14:24.is a void. You have many leading members, a UN atomic energy
:14:24. > :14:28.inspector. This man has a conscience. Everybody does. So when
:14:29. > :14:35.it is said that it bore atrophied political divisions, do you see
:14:35. > :14:41.Egypt becoming more dangerous? is more dangerous. The document
:14:41. > :14:47.does not reflect the discussions. It was thrown down the drain. This
:14:47. > :14:53.is the document that is being sent. People think they will get 80 or 90
:14:53. > :14:58.% consent. You do not get that. You get 51 or 52 %. It is not a
:14:58. > :15:06.document that is valid. It is void today and will be void for ever.
:15:07. > :15:11.But someone says to be angry with the Muslim Brotherhood and hid us
:15:11. > :15:16.as you wish, but preserve unity, and let's turn to the judgment of
:15:16. > :15:23.the ballot box, he has a point. You are seeing the electoral process is
:15:23. > :15:29.flawed. He has a point. What is the point, but you can run falsified
:15:29. > :15:34.votes without supervision of judges, without any supervision. He knows
:15:34. > :15:41.the outcome. He knows there were falsified votes. I would be
:15:42. > :15:48.respected if it was transparent. The human rights associations were
:15:48. > :15:52.deprived from attending. For the first time, they were allowed to
:15:52. > :15:56.come in. The human rights organisations issued a statement
:15:56. > :16:03.that they have never seen more falsification in a process than
:16:03. > :16:06.this one. More to that effect, the only good 53 %. Can you imagine a
:16:06. > :16:10.constitution where put the presenter people do not wanted.
:16:10. > :16:15.What will you do now? There is an argument you will have to find an
:16:15. > :16:21.accommodation. We're going back to the original, the only entity that
:16:21. > :16:25.can protect us. That is the judges and the law and the courts which
:16:25. > :16:30.are now, do you know this referendum happened while the
:16:30. > :16:35.constitution was being surrounded by Tim is a brotherhood to prevent
:16:35. > :16:40.the judges for going into the courts? They wanted to rely on the
:16:40. > :16:48.legitimacy of the referendum. -- to rule. They knew they would rule
:16:48. > :16:58.against illegitimacy. Can you call this a free referendum? They were
:16:58. > :17:01.
:17:01. > :17:09.surrounded by groups in order to So you are more critical of the
:17:09. > :17:13.contents than the process... both. We do not have the time but the
:17:13. > :17:22.devil is in the details. I am against both. The document and the
:17:22. > :17:30.process. The secularists and the Liberals in Egypt cannot just wish
:17:30. > :17:37.the Muslim Brotherhood away. Like ransacking the premises of the
:17:37. > :17:42.Muslim Brotherhood... that is exactly wrong. I should just
:17:42. > :17:49.explain, we have seen violence been perpetrated by secularistss,
:17:49. > :17:59.perhaps still loyal to the former raging -- regime. They are all in
:17:59. > :18:09.jail now. The people who committed the crimes... I condemn that
:18:09. > :18:12.
:18:12. > :18:17.completely. I have a formula for you. We have not seen the Islamists
:18:17. > :18:27.do well just in Egypt, but into an easier, or the Post Arab Spring
:18:27. > :18:34.countries... -- in Tunisia. The point that I want to make, the
:18:34. > :18:39.President in Tunisia has reached an accommodation, and I put it you,
:18:39. > :18:46.that you set tourists and liberals will have to find an accommodation
:18:46. > :18:54.with the Muslim Brotherhood. -- secularists. We made a statement
:18:54. > :18:59.the day before yesterday. If you want to force the Egyptians into a
:18:59. > :19:04.lifestyle that they do not want, or would you want to succeed? If you
:19:04. > :19:12.want to succeed, we will help you in the economy, run the country, we
:19:12. > :19:17.will help our country stand up and become... economic prosperity, but
:19:17. > :19:27.the one condition that you need to understand, we will not be bullied,
:19:27. > :19:30.
:19:30. > :19:38.we would not be scared, there is a conspiracy, and they have their own
:19:38. > :19:42.hooligans going to the district attorney... this will not work. We
:19:42. > :19:50.are ready to co-operate with them, help the country go forward, to
:19:50. > :19:56.stop this division that is threatening civil war. But there
:19:56. > :20:02.are commentators, an Egyptian based in London, and an expert on
:20:02. > :20:09.political Islam, who says it is not the Islamist who are these boilers,
:20:09. > :20:19.it is the Liberals. -- these boilers. My advice is to go to
:20:19. > :20:21.
:20:21. > :20:26.Cairo and talk to people. The media is being prevented to speak. He is
:20:26. > :20:33.pouring all his followers into the national newspapers. But they are
:20:33. > :20:39.in touch with the masses. There was an article in Time magazine, which
:20:39. > :20:44.said that in November, Islamists are good for democracy in Egypt
:20:44. > :20:54.because they understood democracy better, not just better organised,
:20:54. > :20:56.
:20:56. > :21:00.but they campaigned hard are -- campaigned harder. 30 million of
:21:00. > :21:10.Egyptians are illiterate, they knew how to appeal to the masses by
:21:10. > :21:13.
:21:13. > :21:21.saying, we will help you economically. Where is that? I want
:21:22. > :21:26.to tell you something. We are partners. And they cannot wipe out
:21:26. > :21:35.the Liberals. We will fight for what is important, freedom and
:21:35. > :21:41.democracy. Having said so, and we are willing to be part of the
:21:41. > :21:48.Government, but you need to respect us and not bully us. Are you being
:21:48. > :21:55.bullied? I am being bullied. you are from the richest family in
:21:55. > :22:02.Egypt, you have business interests in construction,... why would I
:22:02. > :22:09.risk all of that? Why would I go into a decision, threaten all of my
:22:09. > :22:15.well-being, my wealth, my family, why would I do that? Because to me
:22:16. > :22:19.there is something more important. As a history professor at the
:22:19. > :22:23.American University in Cairo says, in order to truly challenge the
:22:23. > :22:28.Muslim Brotherhood in the next elections, the Liberals must engage
:22:28. > :22:35.the Islamists on a different tack, such as the economy, rather than
:22:36. > :22:45.fight an ideological battle. But can somebody like you, beach
:22:46. > :22:47.
:22:47. > :22:52.billionaire, really connect with those people, come can you? They
:22:52. > :22:58.need to respect the democratic rules, which are very simple, you
:22:58. > :23:06.cannot bully them, you cannot scare them, people should be free to
:23:06. > :23:12.speak, why did we do a revolution? If they respect that, and they
:23:12. > :23:17.understand that we are equal partners, I as a Christian Egyptian,
:23:18. > :23:24.I'm just as Egyptian, I am an Egyptian first before my religion,
:23:24. > :23:30.if they respect that, we will work with them. The masses are fed up.
:23:30. > :23:37.They are fed up with all of these intellectuals, they want their
:23:37. > :23:42.bread and butter, they want to go back to their lives. What is the
:23:42. > :23:47.danger of Egypt becoming a theocracy? That is what we are in
:23:47. > :23:52.now, that is what we are against. That has happened. We are sitting
:23:52. > :23:59.here, fighting for the values that the West actually believes in, and
:23:59. > :24:08.now the West is aligned with that government, and we have no