:00:03. > :00:13.Iraqi detainee, Baha Mousa. That is the latest BBC News, more at the
:00:13. > :00:24.
:00:24. > :00:29.top of the hour, now, it's time for HARDtalk has come to Bata in
:00:29. > :00:38.Equatorial Guinea. This tiny West African nation is
:00:38. > :00:41.now the third biggest oil producer in sub-Saharan Africa.
:00:41. > :00:43.There is enormous wealth here, but most of the people live in poverty.
:00:43. > :00:45.Why? Well, that's a question for my
:00:45. > :00:49.guest today, President Teodoro Obiang, one of the longest serving
:00:49. > :00:54.Heads of State in the world. He calls himself a moderniser, a
:00:54. > :00:59.reformer. His critics say he and his family
:00:59. > :01:09.have systemically looted this country and crushed human rights.
:01:09. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:22.How will history judge one of Africa's most controversial rulers?
:01:22. > :01:28.President Teodoro Obiang, welcome You have great good fortune.
:01:28. > :01:36.Perhaps 20 years ago you discovered oil in this country. It has made
:01:36. > :01:46.the state immensely wealthy. Why is it, given that wealth, that the
:01:46. > :02:24.
:02:24. > :02:29.majority of people in this country Mr President, when you say there is
:02:29. > :02:34.no poverty, you must know, as I do, just one or two kilometres from
:02:34. > :02:40.this very fine Presidential Palace there are people living without
:02:40. > :02:44.safe, clean drinking water, without access to good healthcare. Without
:02:44. > :02:49.access to decent schools for their children. This is the kind of
:02:49. > :02:59.poverty that should not exist in a country which enjoys immense oil
:02:59. > :03:33.
:03:33. > :03:38.But you have had 33 years. It seems to me extraordinary that after that
:03:38. > :03:41.length of time that accord together UN and the World Bank we have an
:03:41. > :03:46.average life expectancy of men in this country that is little more
:03:46. > :03:52.than 50 years old. We have more than 10% of children who are dying
:03:52. > :04:02.before they reach the age of five. These are figures which suggest,
:04:02. > :04:39.
:04:39. > :04:45.frankly, that you have failed your Mr President, there are
:04:45. > :04:49.investigators and legal officials in the United States, in France who
:04:49. > :04:54.have looked at the way in which the state finances have been handled in
:04:54. > :04:58.this country. They have reached some very negative conclusions.
:04:58. > :05:04.Legal documents in in the United States refer to, this is a direct
:05:04. > :05:08.quote, "An ongoing family criminal conspiracy", referring to you and
:05:08. > :05:18.your family and to your handling of the oil revenues in this country.
:05:18. > :05:19.
:05:19. > :05:58.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds
:05:59. > :06:04.If everything was handled in a legitimate way and was all about
:06:04. > :06:08.the state rather than your family benefiting, how do you explain that
:06:08. > :06:15.your own son, Teodorin, apparently has assets in the United States
:06:15. > :06:20.which include a Malibu mansion, a private jet, a collection of
:06:20. > :06:24.Michael Jackson memorabilia worth $2 million, in total assets of
:06:24. > :06:29.hundreds of millions of US dollars which of course the United States
:06:29. > :06:39.now wants to seize and take from you because they believe they are
:06:39. > :06:39.
:06:39. > :07:19.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds
:07:19. > :07:25.sourced from illegal means? How can Right. We are able to scrutinise
:07:25. > :07:28.some of the information already. I don't know if you have read the 100
:07:28. > :07:33.pages of the Justice Department report into the case of your son,
:07:33. > :07:39.Teodorin. It goes into great detail of exactly what he did when he was
:07:39. > :07:43.in charge of the logging and Forestry Ministry. He, apparently,
:07:43. > :07:47.according to the United States companies, had companies pay
:07:47. > :07:53.millions of dollars in kick backs to himself. He is said to have
:07:53. > :07:58.imposed a tax of $28 US dollars on every log exported from your
:07:58. > :08:08.country into a bank account he personally controlled. Are you
:08:08. > :08:36.
:08:37. > :08:40.Bearing in mind what we have already discussed in our interview,
:08:40. > :08:44.the fact that there are people living in this country, many of
:08:44. > :08:51.them, without access to clean drinking water, still struggling to
:08:51. > :09:00.find a job, is it right, is it acceptable, that your own son, for
:09:00. > :09:03.example, in Paris, has a mansion worth almost 200 million euros, a
:09:03. > :09:07.fleet of a dozen luxury cars including Ferraris, Bugattis,
:09:07. > :09:11.Rolls-Royce and has bought art work and antiques worth millions and
:09:11. > :09:21.millions of euros? Do you not think there is something wrong about
:09:21. > :09:34.
:09:34. > :09:44.Hang on, with respect... How much was he earning? How much was he
:09:44. > :09:47.
:09:47. > :09:51.earning? There is a very, very difficult line to draw between the
:09:51. > :09:55.state and the family. You are the President. We are talking about
:09:55. > :10:00.your son, who is now the Vice- President. We are also talking
:10:00. > :10:03.about a government which includes your own son, who is Minister of
:10:03. > :10:08.Energy and Mines. We are talking about a government which includes
:10:08. > :10:18.your brother, who is Minister of Defence. It looks as though you run
:10:18. > :10:52.
:10:52. > :10:58.The French government has seized the Paris mansion, the art works,
:10:58. > :11:04.the cars, and is seeking legal action against your son. Are you
:11:04. > :11:14.freepd see your son go to Paris -- prepared to see your son go to
:11:14. > :11:14.
:11:14. > :12:07.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds
:12:07. > :12:12.Paris and defend himself and his Leave aside France, what do you say
:12:12. > :12:17.to the people in your own country, I have spoken to some of them, who
:12:17. > :12:21.say that you and your family have stolen, stolen the resources and
:12:21. > :12:31.the assets that rightfully belong to all of the people of this
:12:31. > :12:57.
:12:57. > :13:02.If I may say so, you talk about the infrastructure, the development
:13:02. > :13:12.that you are doing in this country. Let me ask you one simple question.
:13:12. > :13:25.
:13:25. > :13:34.How many Presidential Palaces are If I may... If I may say so you
:13:34. > :13:44.have final presidential residences in Malabo, Malabo2, Bata, one in
:13:44. > :14:00.
:14:00. > :14:06.Oyala. How many residencies do you I don't suggest that for a second.
:14:06. > :14:10.But leave aside the houses, I do want to talk to you about Oyala,
:14:10. > :14:14.which is your planned administrative capital, and it is
:14:14. > :14:22.an immense project, and we were lucky enough to visit just a couple
:14:22. > :14:26.of days ago. So far, you have begun construction work on a major new
:14:26. > :14:34.university and also on a luxury hotel and conference centre and
:14:34. > :14:41.golf course in Oyala. I am curious to know why you think that is the
:14:41. > :14:51.best way to develop this country are economically and socially in
:14:51. > :14:51.
:14:51. > :15:36.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds
:15:36. > :15:43.I understand. I just wonder. The two projects we have talked about,
:15:43. > :15:48.the university, the hotel resort, they are going to cost more than
:15:48. > :15:54.half a billion Euros. I just wonder whether it is the best use of the
:15:54. > :16:04.oil money that this nation has. Do you believe it is the right
:16:04. > :16:21.
:16:21. > :16:25.I need to be informed about what happened in this country, but
:16:25. > :16:29.surely your own people need to be informed, too, for example about
:16:29. > :16:33.the events unfolding in North Africa connected to the Arab
:16:33. > :16:41.uprisings. Why is it that so little information has been given on state
:16:41. > :16:51.television about the events in Libya, in Egypt, in Tunisia? Is it
:16:51. > :17:13.
:17:13. > :17:17.because you fear that similar The International Committee to
:17:17. > :17:23.Protect journalists has your country in the top five most
:17:23. > :17:25.censored countries in the world. I wonder why you think so many
:17:25. > :17:35.national -- international organisations worry so much about
:17:35. > :17:59.
:17:59. > :18:04.I want to ask you about your relations with the international
:18:04. > :18:09.community. I think it's fair to say that you have worked very hard with
:18:09. > :18:14.the African Cup of Nations, the African Union summit here, you have
:18:14. > :18:24.worked very hard to try to improve the international standing and
:18:24. > :18:28.Equatorial Guinea. And yet we have seen in 2000 and for an attempted
:18:28. > :18:34.coup which involved international mercenaries and appeared to involve
:18:34. > :18:39.money coming from Mark Thatcher, the son of the former British prime
:18:39. > :18:49.minister Margaret Thatcher. Do you think that the Western nations in
:18:49. > :18:49.
:18:49. > :19:49.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds
:19:49. > :19:59.So you think that the Government's you mentioned were complicit in the
:19:59. > :19:59.
:19:59. > :20:48.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds
:20:48. > :20:56.If that is true, Mr President, why is it that you still allow United
:20:56. > :21:01.States oil companies to dominate oil production in this country? I
:21:01. > :21:06.look at the figures, and the biggest 10 companies involved in
:21:06. > :21:16.oil exploration are American. You seem to have a very complicated
:21:16. > :21:41.
:21:41. > :21:45.I just wonder for the future where the you see a strategic shift for
:21:45. > :21:48.this country. I have been struck as I have travelled around your
:21:48. > :21:53.country at the number of infrastructure project, building
:21:53. > :22:03.project, which are being run and financed by Chinese companies and
:22:03. > :22:39.
:22:39. > :22:45.A final question, Mr President. You last year held a referendum on a
:22:45. > :22:52.new constitution, and it sets term limits on the presidency of two
:22:52. > :22:59.seven-year terms. Because of your presence here for a long time, you
:22:59. > :23:09.have already served 33 years. Does that mean this you will regard the
:23:09. > :23:09.
:23:09. > :24:01.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds