:00:12. > :00:16.Now on BBC news, it is time for The brutal gang rape and murder of
:00:16. > :00:19.a young woman in Delhi in December 2012 has prompted India to confront
:00:19. > :00:29.a disturbing truth: The country is failing to protect women from
:00:29. > :00:31.
:00:31. > :00:34.sexual violence. My guest Kiran Bedi has seen the problem close-up,
:00:34. > :00:37.she was the most senior female police officer in the Indian Police
:00:37. > :00:47.Service when she retired. Is India ready for the deep-seated changes
:00:47. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:23.10 Bedi in New Delhi, welcome to HARDtalk. -- Kiran Bedi. Thank you.
:01:23. > :01:31.Let me ask you a question based on a hard truth, the brutal sexual
:01:31. > :01:35.attack, rape and murder of the young women in Delhi on 16th
:01:35. > :01:40.December was not entirely unusual, what is extraordinary is the surge
:01:40. > :01:44.of popular anger on the streets we have seen since. Can you explain to
:01:44. > :01:51.me pie the outcry has been so pronounced across the country? --
:01:51. > :01:57.why. By and large, this has been a perennial problem. It has been a
:01:57. > :02:04.persistent problem of women being harassed, victims of sexual assault
:02:04. > :02:10.and then having to bear it. Bear it because of family pressure. Bear it
:02:10. > :02:15.because of the response of law- enforcement indices. -- agencies.
:02:15. > :02:19.Bear it because of a fear of a delayed trial. There is a fear of
:02:19. > :02:27.being stopped at the man is out on bail. There is the fear of social
:02:27. > :02:33.stigma. There is a lot of non reporting. This was an outrage.
:02:33. > :02:39.Every woman almost related with it. Every father related with it.
:02:39. > :02:44.question, there have been many similar outrages before. There have
:02:44. > :02:49.been similar outrages since 16th December. And struggling to define
:02:49. > :02:56.exactly why this case has had such a dramatic impact across the
:02:56. > :03:01.country. I think this was one of the most brutal in recent times.
:03:01. > :03:09.Truly brutal. It happened right in the capital. I think the amount of
:03:09. > :03:14.media gaze on this led it reached almost every home. With 247
:03:14. > :03:20.channels, it reached every home in every language. It shocked every
:03:20. > :03:26.woman who had been somehow harassed seriously. Women related with it.
:03:26. > :03:31.Woman felt it could be them. And every woman felt it could be her. I
:03:31. > :03:35.think every parent could feel that it could be their daughter. Every
:03:35. > :03:40.man probably felt it could be their sister or their wife. I think
:03:40. > :03:49.almost every citizen of this country, thanks to the 247 mac
:03:49. > :03:52.channel, it reached every home. It impacted on every woman in every --
:03:53. > :03:58.and every conscientious citizen of the country. You served in the
:03:58. > :04:02.police for more than 30 years. When you left, you were the more senior
:04:02. > :04:07.female officer in the fours. You are very much a part of the system,
:04:07. > :04:12.the policing system. Would you agree that that system is
:04:12. > :04:18.fundamentally failing the women of your country? Yes it is. The Indian
:04:18. > :04:23.Police system has not been reformed since the British left India. We
:04:23. > :04:28.are still governed by the Police Act of 1861. The Indian parliament
:04:28. > :04:33.has not enacted another new legislation to replace the Police
:04:33. > :04:38.Act of 1861. With all of its inadequacies, the police has been
:04:38. > :04:43.performing. Is still reports to the politicians at the helm. It still
:04:43. > :04:50.reports to the bureaucracy at the helm. It is accountable to the lot.
:04:50. > :04:55.But, it does not report to the law as such. I have been a part of the
:04:55. > :05:02.system. I delivered it within inadequacies. There are political
:05:02. > :05:07.interferences, bureaucratic controls, insensitive communities.
:05:07. > :05:12.There is delayed justice. There is weak prosecution. There is none
:05:12. > :05:16.reformed prison. I have been a part of the system but I delivered it
:05:16. > :05:21.within the inadequacies. Unfortunately, these inadequacies
:05:21. > :05:27.still remained. It is not a criminal justice system. It is
:05:27. > :05:31.police, prosecution, prisons. There is not one hub which is connecting
:05:31. > :05:37.all of these very important cogs and making it one Criminal Justice
:05:37. > :05:41.wheel. That has been the inadequacy. I have delivered within the
:05:41. > :05:46.inadequacy by all kind of creative and innovative systems. By
:05:46. > :05:52.creativity of which was generated. The fact is, it is not binding. It
:05:52. > :05:56.is not part of the criminal justice system. It is seriously lacking.
:05:56. > :06:01.For it to be Co ordinated, to become one field which delivers, to
:06:01. > :06:05.remain independent, to co-ordinate and deliver as one criminal justice
:06:05. > :06:09.system, that is a long way off. want to talk about the wider
:06:09. > :06:13.criminal justice system later in the interview. Let's take policing
:06:13. > :06:18.at the moment. What is it about the current police force and its
:06:18. > :06:22.mentality that simply does not get that sexual violence directed at
:06:22. > :06:27.women is utterly unacceptable and has to be taken seriously at the
:06:27. > :06:31.very highest levels? I asked you the question because, since 16th
:06:31. > :06:36.December and the outcry over that particular attack and murder, we
:06:36. > :06:41.have seen some truly incredible incidents. We have seen 121 year-
:06:41. > :06:44.old girl who was raped and found murdered and it became clear when
:06:44. > :06:48.the case was investigated afterwards that the police had
:06:48. > :06:56.refused to register the family's missing complaint. They told them
:06:56. > :07:00.to Galway. This happened after 16th December. That goal away. We had a
:07:00. > :07:03.Punjab girl who killed herself after drinking -- who killed
:07:03. > :07:06.herself by drinking poison after she had been raped because she
:07:06. > :07:11.found the way the police had handled her tastes so utterly
:07:11. > :07:19.upsetting. She ended up taking her on life. -- handled her case. What
:07:19. > :07:23.is it that the police do not get? Do have good police officers and
:07:23. > :07:27.you have been sensitive police officers. -- you have. Many police
:07:27. > :07:32.officers are not of the same category. The unfortunate thing is
:07:32. > :07:36.that the good work done by the good senior Indian Police officers and
:07:36. > :07:40.down the rank of the constabulary does not come into the limelight.
:07:40. > :07:44.What comes into the limelight is the gross injustice which is
:07:44. > :07:53.absolutely intolerable and not acceptable. The fact is, Indian
:07:53. > :07:59.Police system, it is still the pre- independence model of statistics.
:07:59. > :08:05.It is still judged by the number of crimes reported and registered.
:08:05. > :08:12.There is always a tendency, and there are exceptions, there is
:08:12. > :08:16.always a tendency to register the minimum. To try to minimise crime.
:08:16. > :08:22.It is appraised by the number of cases it registers, not the number
:08:22. > :08:28.of cases it sends to court or are convicted. It is not judged by
:08:28. > :08:32.convictions. There does not seem to be any accountability. One more
:08:32. > :08:38.shocking anecdote, post 16th December, the Wall Street Journal
:08:38. > :08:41.reported that the 247 hotline for reporting rapes which has been
:08:41. > :08:46.trumpeted by they are authorities as a fundamental reform that has
:08:46. > :08:51.been made to address the serious issues, if people call that hotline,
:08:51. > :08:55.just a few days after the 16th December attack, they got a
:08:55. > :08:59.recorded message telling them to try later. While the top brass of
:08:59. > :09:04.the police not being forced to account for and perhaps resigned
:09:04. > :09:12.for the failings of their service? The Supreme Court of India directed
:09:12. > :09:16.the government of the country to separate law-and-order duties from
:09:16. > :09:21.the system. It is not implemented. You are asking about senior police
:09:21. > :09:26.officers. Remember, the same Supreme Court judgment had wanted
:09:26. > :09:32.an installation, had directed senior officers to insulate it from
:09:32. > :09:36.the political Russia. This is between the Security Commission. --
:09:36. > :09:41.political leadership. This has citizens in it, even the leader of
:09:41. > :09:50.the opposition. This is providing stability to the police leadership.
:09:50. > :09:53.It leaves them to deliver. That has not happened. Let me complete this.
:09:53. > :09:58.Forgive me for interrupting. You have given me a catalogue of
:09:58. > :10:02.reasons why the system is not working. I must challenge you. You
:10:02. > :10:06.were not slow in coming forward in the surge of unrest over what is
:10:07. > :10:11.happening in Delhi with regard to the last few weeks. You said, for
:10:11. > :10:15.example, that you were sure that you, personally, if you were
:10:15. > :10:20.invited to step back in, could change the culture of the Delhi
:10:20. > :10:25.police in 90 days. How an earth do you propose that you could do that?
:10:25. > :10:29.That is exactly what I am trying to save. Let me complete and where I
:10:29. > :10:35.left. There are officers and officers. There were officers like
:10:35. > :10:39.me who were not afraid of getting posted anywhere. That is so I got
:10:39. > :10:44.assignments which were considered as punishment assignments. They
:10:44. > :10:49.might not have been. -- they ought not to have been. There are brave
:10:49. > :10:53.and courageous officers. They do not wait for a page and a jaw for
:10:53. > :10:58.favours to be done on transfers and postings. Thus do not wait for
:10:58. > :11:04.favours to be done. This is what the Supreme Court of India wanted
:11:04. > :11:11.to correct. Let there be a system Exchange. Police officers must not
:11:11. > :11:14.have to depend on political patronage to court. A new minister
:11:14. > :11:19.comes into a particular police state and here she changes the
:11:19. > :11:24.leadership. War, she does not wait for the tenure to have been
:11:24. > :11:28.completed. That is the reason. Unless you handle things like that.
:11:28. > :11:31.The brilliant officers delivered. They delivered with courage of
:11:32. > :11:37.conviction and with total commitment to the common man. There
:11:37. > :11:40.are officers and officers. There is a lot going on in the country.
:11:40. > :11:45.Let's not just talk about police process and bureaucracy. Let's talk
:11:45. > :11:50.about the bigger picture. There are many different ways in which one
:11:50. > :11:54.might describe India as still being a society where women are not truly
:11:54. > :11:59.treated as first class citizens. They have second-class status. You
:11:59. > :12:03.are a woman. You served in a police force where fewer than 10 % of the
:12:03. > :12:09.overall numbers are female. How did you, when you were responsible for
:12:09. > :12:13.training and development, how did you try to change that?
:12:13. > :12:19.I had excellent leadership during my time. I was aligned with the
:12:19. > :12:27.commissioner. I had some senior people, when I could deliver, I
:12:27. > :12:33.delivered. There were some fine police officers. There are a number
:12:33. > :12:37.of them. I am not mentioning any more names. You did not do an
:12:37. > :12:40.excellent job because we are discussing a police force that all
:12:40. > :12:45.the different human rights groups and women's rights groups in India
:12:45. > :12:49.described as fundamentally sexist. The majority of male officers do
:12:49. > :12:56.not take sexual violence directed at women seriously. This is because
:12:56. > :13:01.these officers, many brave officers, they are encouraging free
:13:02. > :13:07.registration. Remember, they sometimes earned the wrath of the
:13:07. > :13:12.politicians who want figures. Many of them do not register crimes
:13:12. > :13:17.against women what they do not register crimes generally. You have
:13:17. > :13:20.got both the drugs. You have got drugs which are still committed to
:13:20. > :13:23.deliver and you have got individuals who are looking at
:13:23. > :13:30.their political leadership to retain their positions. That is the
:13:30. > :13:36.category which is not leading its force. It creates a deficit in
:13:36. > :13:41.financing. They are the ones who eat away the good accounts created
:13:41. > :13:46.by some good officers. They leave a deficit account when they leave.
:13:46. > :13:52.They leave it bankrupt. Officers pulled the Bank of goodwill and
:13:52. > :14:01.other officers laboured bankrupt by eating away on the goodwill. There
:14:01. > :14:08.is a nexus between the politicians, How seriously should we take the
:14:08. > :14:18.commitments made in the last few weeks about female officers taking
:14:18. > :14:18.
:14:18. > :14:23.on women's rights properly. The idea that there's a desk in every
:14:23. > :14:27.police station offering counselling in response to the terrible crimes
:14:27. > :14:31.being committed. How realistic is it to expect those promises to be
:14:31. > :14:35.delivered on? Such promises have been made in the past but the
:14:35. > :14:41.situation has never been as volatile and as demanding and
:14:41. > :14:45.explosive as today. The new young India, men and women, girls and
:14:45. > :14:49.boys, parents, citizens, activists, have all come on the streets saying
:14:49. > :14:53.enough is enough. We have had enough promises, this time it is
:14:53. > :14:57.going to be different. This time, the commissioner heading the
:14:57. > :15:07.suggestions which will make recommendations is being led by a
:15:07. > :15:11.very well reputed former Chief Justice of India. It also has a
:15:11. > :15:15.former chief justice of a High Court in India, a woman. These
:15:15. > :15:20.three members, and another well reputed Justice, is going to look
:15:20. > :15:23.at it. While they make the right recommendations, and I know they
:15:23. > :15:28.are going to make dramatic recommendations, they are going to
:15:28. > :15:32.break from the past, these youth of this country, and the citizens of
:15:32. > :15:36.this country, are not going to let the political class and the
:15:36. > :15:41.bureaucratic class and the police leadership go away. They will go
:15:41. > :15:46.back to the streets, and to all these recommendations are honoured.
:15:46. > :15:51.I will be part of the streets. -- until al. Powerful stuff but you're
:15:51. > :15:58.not really able to change the system, 93% of India's senior
:15:58. > :16:01.judges are men. Most of India's senior politicians are men. If you
:16:01. > :16:06.look at what they have been saying since 60th December, both some of
:16:06. > :16:11.the most senior judges and most senior politicians, they to don't
:16:11. > :16:17.seem to get it when it comes to respecting the importance of this
:16:17. > :16:23.issue of crimes committed against women. Well, these are people who
:16:23. > :16:28.are reflecting their mind sets. In fact this occasion is letting us
:16:28. > :16:32.know what is suppressed in the mind set. This is the group, this is the
:16:32. > :16:37.constituency we have to work towards to insure that they become
:16:37. > :16:43.a minority, and not remain the loud voices which are always heard. They
:16:43. > :16:49.are exposing themselves. Let's be clear about this. When a leading
:16:49. > :16:54.figure in the nationalist right, no and that flat, when he says that
:16:54. > :16:59.the sexual crime situation in your country can be blamed on the
:16:59. > :17:02.western lifestyles of women in urban areas. He's a politician, he
:17:02. > :17:08.is only saying that because he thinks that wins in support.
:17:08. > :17:13.There's a problem with the mindset? That's exactly what I said. He is
:17:13. > :17:16.not the only one. There have been plenty of statements and it is open
:17:16. > :17:22.to many interpretations. I'm not getting into these contradictions
:17:22. > :17:27.because each one has come back with clarifications. All I'm saying is
:17:27. > :17:31.that men are men. There are men with the women's on the streets.
:17:31. > :17:36.You also have individuals with closed minds of Conservatives all
:17:36. > :17:39.of their own mind sets which they are convinced about, also sharing
:17:39. > :17:44.their views. They are not influencing the modern youth of
:17:44. > :17:48.this country any more. They have been counted very well. The lesson
:17:48. > :17:54.and the message is going very clearly as to what the new India
:17:54. > :17:59.and the new Indian woman and the new Indian youth onces. We have
:17:59. > :18:04.talked about this engender terms, but is this not something we must
:18:04. > :18:10.discuss in class terms? -- in gender. When another senior judge
:18:10. > :18:14.asked not so long ago, in the case of an allegation of a rape against
:18:14. > :18:18.an untouchable woman, he asked rhetorically how can a phallic
:18:18. > :18:23.woman be raped? Which suggests to me, this is not just a gender issue,
:18:23. > :18:28.it is a cast and a class issue. That's the past. I think this
:18:28. > :18:32.country has moved very strongly forward since December 16th. You
:18:32. > :18:37.have all kinds of history is, you have got dynamic and you have got
:18:37. > :18:40.these negative statements to -- histories. Indian youth has changed,
:18:40. > :18:46.Indian perception has changed and the way women are speaking up today
:18:46. > :18:51.has changed since the 16th December. This woman, who died, and whose
:18:51. > :18:55.name has not yet been made public, we are calling her fearless the
:18:55. > :19:01.brave heart. It is gone but it has left Indian youth and Indian
:19:01. > :19:05.society recharge. You have called for some pretty populist measures.
:19:05. > :19:10.You have said, and this I found very striking, that Indians need
:19:10. > :19:15.not only to respect the law but to fear the law. It seems you want to
:19:15. > :19:21.see a much wider use of the death penalty in these sexual crime cases.
:19:21. > :19:28.Am I right in reading you that way? And how many of these convict
:19:28. > :19:33.convicted sex criminals do you want to put to death? I am for... India
:19:33. > :19:39.already has a death penalty on the statute book. It uses it in rare
:19:39. > :19:44.cases. I am for such gruesome crimes, such brutal rapes, to be
:19:44. > :19:50.considered in the rarest of the rare cases. That's what I'm four.
:19:50. > :19:54.If I may, what about the idea of posting convicted rapists' details
:19:54. > :19:58.online so people would learn their family home address. Are you in
:19:59. > :20:04.favour of that? I'm in favour and this is likely to be a strong
:20:04. > :20:10.recommendation of the justice committee. A lot of this idea has
:20:10. > :20:14.been sent by lots of rights activists to the justice. We in the
:20:15. > :20:18.first Lynch mob goes to the home of a convicted rapist and burns it
:20:18. > :20:25.down and perhaps injures or kills the people inside, how will you
:20:25. > :20:29.feel then? At the moment I am on victim ology, right now I'm
:20:30. > :20:34.focusing on the victims' rights. I am for a balanced Indian system,
:20:34. > :20:37.there has been an imbalance in the favour of criminal rights. I am
:20:37. > :20:43.balancing the rights for a change on the rights of the criminal and
:20:43. > :20:47.the rights of the victim. And for the larger safety of the community.
:20:47. > :20:51.We can cross the bridge is when they come. I am not for lynch-mob
:20:51. > :20:55.saw the burning of the Houses of criminals, but I want a balance
:20:55. > :20:58.between the victim being at the centre of the criminal justice
:20:58. > :21:02.system rather than the criminal. So far the system has been more
:21:02. > :21:06.focused on the rights of the criminal. I would like to see in my
:21:06. > :21:11.life a balance between the rights of the victim and the rights of the
:21:11. > :21:16.criminal. You have great ambitions for change in India across the
:21:16. > :21:22.police service, the judiciary, the entire criminal justice system. How
:21:22. > :21:29.realistic is it... You say India's come to a turning point and is
:21:29. > :21:33.changing, look at the facts. The gender inequality index ranks India
:21:33. > :21:37.129 out of 146. It is below neighbouring Bangladesh, below
:21:37. > :21:40.Pakistan. It is going to take decades and decades to achieve the
:21:40. > :21:45.sort of change that you've talked about, albeit you've talked about
:21:45. > :21:50.90 days, it's going to take more like 90 years. When I was talking
:21:50. > :21:54.about 90 days I was talking about training the Delhi police. I was
:21:54. > :21:59.looking at putting in right practices for Delhi police. For
:21:59. > :22:04.India to change, even if it starts the change, every person needs
:22:04. > :22:08.better employment and more opportunities. I think any change
:22:08. > :22:14.is coming out of the deficit to a surplus, but when I was talking
:22:14. > :22:24.about 90 days I was talking about training the Delhi police, and I
:22:24. > :22:28.know this force are like the back of my palm and I think that we need
:22:28. > :22:32.to put together community goodwill and other things. I have the
:22:32. > :22:42.confidence for 90 days with that background that I have. But India
:22:42. > :22:43.
:22:43. > :22:47.needs integrity at the political level. That is why we have been
:22:47. > :22:51.working for the last two years to bring in a strong anti- corruption
:22:51. > :22:56.ombudsman in this country based on the UN Convention against
:22:56. > :23:02.corruption. It isn't yet to see light of day. That has to come up
:23:02. > :23:06.along with judicial and police reforms. -- it is yet to. Then we
:23:06. > :23:09.can go back to infrastructure. There has to be fundamental change
:23:09. > :23:13.in education as well as legal reform, to change the next
:23:14. > :23:18.generation's ideas about these matters? Absolutely, for that you
:23:18. > :23:24.need the money and the will. That comes from integrity, men and women
:23:24. > :23:27.of integrity to be at the helm. That is why I said fear of law. The
:23:27. > :23:32.corrupt public servant and politician has to be afraid of the
:23:32. > :23:38.North and afraid of losing the loot, losing the lost money -- afraid of
:23:38. > :23:43.the law. They have to be afraid of losing the money that belongs to
:23:43. > :23:48.the poor. It is the poor man's money that has gone overseas. It is