:00:15. > :00:19.Now on BBC News, it's time for Arguably the most right-wing
:00:19. > :00:23.government in Israel's history may soon be replaced by a government
:00:23. > :00:28.even further to the ride. Prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu is the
:00:28. > :00:31.clear favourite to keep his job after next week's election but the
:00:31. > :00:36.next government coalition may depend on hardliners in the Jewish
:00:36. > :00:42.settler movement, who want to annex large chunks of the West Bank and
:00:42. > :00:46.end all talk of a two state peace deal. My guest today is Danny mac,
:00:46. > :00:56.a settler dealer backing Mr Netanyahu. Is the rise of the far
:00:56. > :01:18.
:01:18. > :01:24.right about to leave Israel Dani Dayan, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:24. > :01:30.Thank you. The centre of gravity of Israeli politics is shifting ever
:01:30. > :01:33.further to the right point Is that how you see it? I am not sure. I
:01:33. > :01:39.think the outcome of the election will not be Dep -- very different
:01:39. > :01:43.from the previous one. But I am not sure they are decided. I am not
:01:43. > :01:49.sure even Mr Netanyahu's victory is complete. Israeli public opinion is
:01:50. > :01:56.very volatile. There are mighty forces that are doing everything
:01:56. > :02:02.they can in order to topple Mr Netanyahu. That includes even the
:02:02. > :02:12.President of the United States. Leaking from the White House 0.2
:02:12. > :02:18.that. And -- point to that. I would say the only power the President of
:02:18. > :02:24.Israel has is to grant the power to form a coalition. I am not sure
:02:24. > :02:29.that he will grant it to Mr Netanyahu for sure. You raise some
:02:29. > :02:33.mighty issues. Not least Israel's relationship with the US and the
:02:33. > :02:37.role of the President. We will get to this. Sticking to what is
:02:37. > :02:41.happening to the right of Israeli politics. The striking thing we
:02:41. > :02:48.have seen in this election campaign is the rise from nowhere of this
:02:48. > :02:51.new party. It advocates a set of ultra hawkish poll -- policies,
:02:51. > :02:56.particularly in regards to the Palestinians, the occupied
:02:56. > :03:02.territory, which is outflanking Mr Netanyahu from the right point The
:03:02. > :03:06.polls command between -- the polls suggest they command 16 or 17 seats
:03:06. > :03:13.in the new parliament. How do you explain their power? Those
:03:13. > :03:18.positions that you are referring to as her ultra hawkish are quite
:03:18. > :03:23.realistic. The problem I think it is that you misread the situation
:03:23. > :03:32.in the Middle East. The fact is, Israel is beginning to understand
:03:32. > :03:38.that the two states solution never existed. It was a mirage. As you
:03:38. > :03:42.get closer to it, it was revealed as just hot air. But because of
:03:42. > :03:48.Israel or the settlers but because of the refusals of the Palestinians
:03:48. > :03:54.to accept it. Then, the Israelis start to think, if this is the
:03:54. > :03:57.situation, how do we cope with these new understandings?
:03:57. > :04:04.Ultimately, Europeans and Americans will grasp the same reality and
:04:04. > :04:11.will start to think again about the excellence of the peace process.
:04:11. > :04:16.Unpicking that, you tell me you do not believe I understand what is
:04:16. > :04:20.going on, but the leader of that party is explicit. He wants to
:04:20. > :04:24.annex as soon as possible 60% of the land of the West Bank,
:04:24. > :04:30.internationally regarded as occupied land, illegally occupied,
:04:30. > :04:34.which should be handed over as part of the peace process. It wants 60%
:04:34. > :04:39.and next and he wants to do away once and for all with the talk of a
:04:39. > :04:42.two-state solution. Are you with him on that? I would like it to
:04:42. > :04:48.happen but I don't think it will happen in the foreseeable future,
:04:48. > :04:52.the annexation. It's a natural outcome... If you want it to happen
:04:52. > :04:57.and if a majority of Israelis decide they want it to happen, why
:04:57. > :05:02.should it not? Because I don't think the majority of Israelis will
:05:02. > :05:07.decide that in the coming election. But this is complicated. I want to
:05:07. > :05:14.get to the part of this particular issue. If you want it to happen,
:05:14. > :05:21.why are you not supporting the Jewish home party and why are you
:05:21. > :05:25.supporting Binyamin Netanyahu, who shied away from that policy?
:05:25. > :05:31.election is not a beauty pageant. In an election, you go to the
:05:31. > :05:36.ballot first and foremost to elect the Prime Minister. When I look at
:05:36. > :05:42.the candidate for prime minister, their international stature, their
:05:42. > :05:52.ability to make decisions, their experience, that proverbial phone-
:05:52. > :05:52.
:05:52. > :05:57.call at 3am in the morning from the head off a group that says Mahmoud
:05:57. > :06:01.Ahmadinejad will make a big mistake, what do we do? I want Binyamin
:06:01. > :06:04.Netanyahu to get that. You want him because you think he is more
:06:05. > :06:09.acceptable to the west, will statesmanlike qualities. But when
:06:09. > :06:14.it comes to the issue of how to deal with the Palestinians, you
:06:14. > :06:19.actually support the far right and Jewish home and everything they say.
:06:19. > :06:27.I wonder if you support things like recently, when faced with an Arab
:06:27. > :06:33.member of Knesset, he said, when you were still climbing trees, we
:06:33. > :06:39.had a Jewish state. The share those politics? I believe even hint
:06:39. > :06:45.regrets that outburst. Because too many people, that sounds overtly...
:06:45. > :06:50.He was quoting one of your prime ministers. Never mind. That was a
:06:50. > :06:56.mistake and he knows that. He is inexperienced. He has the right to
:06:56. > :07:04.make mistakes. But it is more important, the second part of your
:07:04. > :07:10.question. Thus annexation talks of the far right mean it will be
:07:11. > :07:17.elected? For be the possibility to establish a Palestinian state? -- 4
:07:17. > :07:21.B. The fact is that the Palestinian state could exist. It was a
:07:21. > :07:28.Palestinian decision not to establish it, not an Israeli one.
:07:28. > :07:32.Not because of the settlement, not because of Mr Netanyahu, it is
:07:33. > :07:37.because of the fact that time and time again the Palestinians
:07:37. > :07:44.rejected every offer of a Palestinian state. You can doubt Mr
:07:44. > :07:47.Netanyahu... But we have Palestinians who come into the
:07:47. > :07:52.HARDtalk studio and I ask them about the historic decisions they
:07:52. > :07:55.have taken when it comes to all of the long Oslo processes and the
:07:55. > :08:00.discussion of a two-state solution. They can speak for themselves. You
:08:00. > :08:08.have to speak for who you represent, the Jewish settlers. You tell me
:08:09. > :08:15.you don't think Mr Bennett, one of the stars of the current election
:08:15. > :08:24.campaign, why is it the party due to campaign for, Mr Netanyahu's
:08:25. > :08:30.party, includes a very senior people who, to quote one, a recent
:08:30. > :08:35.comment to the New Yorker magazine, said, you can't teach and monkey to
:08:35. > :08:40.speak and you can't teach an Arab to be democratic. The Arab destroys
:08:40. > :08:44.everything he touches. That is a man that you are campaigning.
:08:44. > :08:51.not campaigning for him. I am campaigning for Binyamin Netanyahu.
:08:51. > :08:57.You are campaigning for that party, including that man who is going for
:08:57. > :09:01.a seat. Is it acceptable he should be part of it? That is a question
:09:01. > :09:11.you have for the people who will vote for him. I am putting it to
:09:11. > :09:15.you. It's a very unfortunate quote and... It is not a quote, it's a
:09:15. > :09:20.mindset. I put it to you that your face is on Israeli television,
:09:20. > :09:29.telling Israelis to vote for the party. It a go -- vote for it, this
:09:29. > :09:34.is the kind of dead woman they will have inside. This is the Express --
:09:34. > :09:38.exception. The exception that proves the rule. I am not voting
:09:38. > :09:46.for that kind of quote, I vote for a responsible Prime Minister that
:09:46. > :09:50.will give Israel... Safeguard Israel's interests. With respect,
:09:50. > :09:56.even these short interview thus far contradicts what you just told me.
:09:56. > :10:01.You said to me that you actually support Jewish homes' notion that
:10:01. > :10:05.the police process is dead and annexation of the West Bank should
:10:05. > :10:09.proceed. -- peace process. Not straight away but it should happen.
:10:09. > :10:16.If that is the case, it makes no sense that you of the yourself as a
:10:17. > :10:20.supporter of Binyamin Netanyahu, who in 2009 declared he accepted a
:10:20. > :10:27.two-state solution and would work for a two-state solution. You can't
:10:27. > :10:33.have it both ways. Politics is the art of the possible. In an election,
:10:33. > :10:38.you have to choose the party you identify with most. How can you
:10:38. > :10:43.identify with Binyamin Netanyahu? Maybe we should not take his
:10:43. > :10:48.commitment to us to stop -- to state solutions to Risley? I really
:10:48. > :10:52.don't know if Mr Netanyahu is tactical but I will tell you...
:10:52. > :10:56.think it could be tactical? I want to tell you something more
:10:56. > :11:02.important. You British say the proof of the pudding is in its
:11:02. > :11:08.eating. Well, in its eating, despite the moratorium on
:11:08. > :11:14.construction in g'day and Somalia that was very unfortunate, -- today
:11:14. > :11:21.and, I see a policy of building that I like. Despite this speech in
:11:21. > :11:25.which he adopted the two-state solution, I see a political
:11:25. > :11:31.attitude towards the Palestinians that I admire. OK. What he seemed
:11:31. > :11:34.to be saying to me, and I do not want to paraphrase if it is unfair,
:11:34. > :11:37.that to understand Binyamin Netanyahu, we should understand
:11:37. > :11:41.that rhetorically he remains committed to the two-state solution
:11:41. > :11:46.but in every practical and meaningful sense he is walking away
:11:46. > :11:50.from that policy as fast as he can? Particularly by encourage in the
:11:50. > :11:56.massive expansion of Jewish settlement construction across the
:11:56. > :12:03.West Bank. I would not phrase it that way. But I will tell you what
:12:03. > :12:11.I mean. Mr Netanyahu is beginning to understand what I'm a humbly say
:12:11. > :12:16.I understood a long time ago. After the offer to the Palestinians that
:12:16. > :12:26.they rejected, an offer that included withdrawal from all of
:12:26. > :12:27.
:12:27. > :12:31.g'day in Somalia, the division of Jerusalem, everything, you can read
:12:31. > :12:37.Condoleezza Rice's memoir, she could not believe her eyes, how far
:12:37. > :12:42.reaching the offer was, and it was rejected. Then, there will not be
:12:42. > :12:47.asked to state solution. Not because of us but because of the
:12:47. > :12:51.Palestinians. -- not be a two-state solution. I do not want to go into
:12:51. > :12:55.the history for too long. We know the Palestinians never believed for
:12:55. > :12:59.one second that the deal could be delivered. That is by the buyer.
:12:59. > :13:06.do not agree. Sticking to the analysis of what is happening to
:13:06. > :13:13.Israel's attitude to the Palestinian state. You know as well
:13:14. > :13:19.as I do, I have spoken to him, that he now believes that unless it to
:13:19. > :13:24.state deal can be done, the sort of deal that you have talked about, he
:13:24. > :13:28.says Israel will face a South African-style struggle for equal
:13:28. > :13:36.voting rights from the Palestinians. As soon as that happens, the state
:13:36. > :13:45.of the East rail could be finished That proves exactly how committed
:13:45. > :13:50.he was. You know what he is saying. He is saying that the future is of
:13:50. > :13:55.an apartheid style Israel in which the Palestinians are permanently
:13:55. > :14:00.locked into enclaves, occupied territory, rendering them stateless,
:14:00. > :14:05.second class citizens. Well, that is not the only thing that he has
:14:05. > :14:10.said. But his commitment to the two state solution, that kind of
:14:10. > :14:16.commitment proves exactly, if he was not able to achieve that goal,
:14:16. > :14:21.no-one will be. But let me tell you something about South Africa. I
:14:21. > :14:28.have been virtually everywhere over the world. And refused to visit
:14:28. > :14:32.South Africa until 1994 on principle. Of course. Because you
:14:32. > :14:37.saw people displaced? Of course. I arrived in Johannesburg for the
:14:37. > :14:42.first time in my life in 1994. There is no comparison at all
:14:42. > :14:47.between the two. It is strange that many civil rights campaigners in
:14:47. > :14:50.South Africa to see a very clear parallel between their struggle for
:14:50. > :14:59.freedom and the Palestinians and their particular form of
:14:59. > :15:04.dispossession today. Israel made a lot of mistakes. I am not proud of
:15:04. > :15:11.the fact that in the 1990s, Israel helped South Africa. I am not proud
:15:11. > :15:15.of that. But this is not the point. The point is that they are
:15:15. > :15:21.completely different. Let us see the moral justification, the
:15:21. > :15:25.balance of morality in the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. When we talk
:15:25. > :15:30.about South Africa, we are talking about something that is utterly
:15:30. > :15:35.immoral. I would like for a minute to explain the balance of morality
:15:35. > :15:41.in this is rarely-Palestinian conflict. There are two ethnic
:15:41. > :15:47.groups, Jews and Palestinians, who both severely believe the land is
:15:47. > :15:52.theirs. I sincerely believe the land is mine. We came after being
:15:53. > :16:01.expelled for 2002 -- 2,000 years. We prayed, we yearned for it...
:16:01. > :16:07.don't believe this was God given, do you? Know, I am a secular person.
:16:07. > :16:09.We have got to get to another big issue, the Palestinians living in
:16:09. > :16:14.the West Bank today are dispossessed of basic rights. They
:16:14. > :16:17.do not have the right to vote for the power that has a week to that
:16:17. > :16:24.sovereignty over them and they cannot get away from that. --
:16:24. > :16:30.Alternate sovereignty. I will finish my argument. They saw us as
:16:30. > :16:37.a colonialist force. OK. But the fact is that partition, which was
:16:37. > :16:42.often time and again, time and again, accepted by us, rejected by
:16:42. > :16:47.them. They launch an attack in order to exterminate us. Going to
:16:47. > :16:53.square one... I do not want this interview simply to rehearse
:16:53. > :16:56.history. I want to look forward. You have told me and many people on
:16:57. > :17:03.the right in Israel today tell me that they ultimately believe the
:17:03. > :17:07.West Bank will be axed. It will never be handed over to a
:17:07. > :17:12.Palestinian state, it will always be controlled by Israel. Simple
:17:12. > :17:16.question, then. Will those 2.5 million Palestinians who do believe
:17:16. > :17:21.will be permanently under Israeli control in the West Bank be allowed
:17:21. > :17:30.to vote in Israeli elections? will give you a simple answer.
:17:30. > :17:36.First, we are talking about an into Room. There is no final situation
:17:36. > :17:43.solution at the moment. They live in limbo? No. They live in a
:17:43. > :17:48.reality they created. Do you invaded... Israel conquered that
:17:48. > :17:55.territory in 1967 and if you want, I can cite all of the international
:17:55. > :18:01.law that says that was a military occupation. No! No! I am sorry...
:18:01. > :18:07.Who are you apologising to? The international community? This was a
:18:07. > :18:13.defensive war. It is an incidental outcome. It was not an aggressive
:18:13. > :18:18.war. But this is not the main point. The main point is that this is an
:18:18. > :18:27.interim situation in which we have to find a modus Vivendi which is as
:18:27. > :18:32.good as possible for everybody. Look, as you suggested, we can keep
:18:32. > :18:38.trying to form two states. President Clinton tried and he
:18:38. > :18:44.brought catastrophe over the Middle East. He took office in 1993 with a
:18:44. > :18:52.stable Middle East. He left in 2001 with a completely chaotic Middle
:18:52. > :18:56.East. Look, what we have to do is stop trying to obtain the
:18:56. > :19:02.unattainable, as heroic and tempting it may be, and tried to
:19:02. > :19:07.improve the situation on the ground for everyone, for Israelis and
:19:07. > :19:14.Palestinians. And I will tell you something that may surprise you. I
:19:14. > :19:20.think Israel should now take an active, of offensive of improving
:19:20. > :19:24.rights for Palestinians. Is it not basic human rights to be able to
:19:24. > :19:29.vote and determine the political power that actually controls your
:19:29. > :19:34.life? Palestinians do not have that right. I will tell you. First of
:19:34. > :19:39.all, the basic human right is the right to live. I hope my daughter
:19:39. > :19:44.will be able to stop going to school every morning in a bullet-
:19:44. > :19:49.proof glass because of terrorist attacks. If that happens, we can
:19:49. > :19:53.make tremendous improvement. And I am sure that will be echoed by the
:19:53. > :19:59.Palestinian leadership who say they are absolutely committed to rooting
:19:59. > :20:05.out terrorists. Good! I think that Israel can now take calculated
:20:05. > :20:11.risks. I am happy when every checkpoint is removed. This is not
:20:11. > :20:16.about check points, this is basic rights. I have got to ask you a
:20:16. > :20:20.question. I agree that political rights are very important. I am a
:20:20. > :20:26.political creature. I am the last person to underestimate the
:20:26. > :20:30.importance of political rights. But the fact... First of all,
:20:30. > :20:34.Palestinians to have political rights. They elected a President
:20:34. > :20:38.Mahmoud Abbas. They elected a parliament. By the way, they
:20:38. > :20:44.elected Hamas as their leading force. They carried out the cruder
:20:44. > :20:49.type in Gaza that overthrew everything. -- coup in Gaza. You
:20:50. > :20:54.are right that they do not have full rights, but I want to tell you
:20:54. > :20:58.something. I am a person whose vision of the world is nationally
:20:58. > :21:04.centred. I respect the nation of aspirations of the Palestinians. I
:21:04. > :21:08.respect that very much. By the way, I think I understand this much
:21:08. > :21:14.better than in the brawl in Tel Aviv or in London. But because I
:21:14. > :21:21.understand them so well, I fear them so much because I know their
:21:21. > :21:26.final aspiration for the Palestinians is to return all of
:21:26. > :21:29.the territory. And that is the reason why an agreement is not
:21:29. > :21:34.possible. You say you understand the Palestinians but I wonder
:21:34. > :21:38.whether you understand what you and many other important figures on the
:21:38. > :21:43.Israeli right wing by getting Israel into. It looks very likely
:21:43. > :21:45.if Binyamin Netanyahu returns to power with a coalition government
:21:45. > :21:49.involving even more right wing individuals than the last
:21:49. > :21:54.government, it looks as though the relationship with United States and
:21:54. > :22:00.the international community will be one of Israeli isolation. Are you
:22:00. > :22:04.ready to live with that? I am not sure we have seen these kinds of
:22:04. > :22:07.dramatic properties in the past and if they have crystallised... I am
:22:07. > :22:13.sure you saw the report by Jeffrey Goldberg, who is very well
:22:13. > :22:17.connected in the US, who described in private how President Obama is
:22:17. > :22:23.saying Binyamin Netanyahu is "leading Israel down a path towards
:22:23. > :22:30.almost total isolation". I do not underestimate our relationship with
:22:30. > :22:34.the US, not at all. But... And yet, you support the building of more
:22:34. > :22:39.and more settlements including the one that the President has caught
:22:39. > :22:47.completely provocative, counter- productive and disappointing.
:22:47. > :22:50.understand that you do not like history. But, look, I am old enough
:22:50. > :22:57.to remember 1981 when the Prime Minister destroyed the Iraqi
:22:57. > :23:02.nuclear reactor and Shimon Peres and I am sure also very important
:23:02. > :23:06.figures in the international arena threatened Israel that it would be
:23:06. > :23:14.isolated. And today, the whole world says thank you to Israel for
:23:14. > :23:19.doing that. So, if you think Islamic fundamentalist enclaves in
:23:19. > :23:25.the West Bank, intra-day and Somalia, the kind of Mali you are
:23:25. > :23:29.now facing in western Africa, will stabilise the Middle East, will
:23:29. > :23:35.prevent the falling of King Abdullah in Jordan, will bring
:23:35. > :23:40.peace in the Middle East, then you are so naive, so naive. Finally,
:23:40. > :23:44.you are personally backing Binyamin Netanyahu very strongly. Did it
:23:44. > :23:48.give you pause when the recently retired chief of the Shin Bet said
:23:48. > :23:51.that Binyamin Netanyahu has a record of consistently put in his
:23:51. > :24:01.own interests before that of the nation. Right now, he says Israel
:24:01. > :24:05.faces a crisis of leadership and of values. Well, I differ with him. I
:24:05. > :24:10.believe he was used by political forces in order to influence the
:24:10. > :24:14.election. I don't think the head of Shin Bet is easily used by any
:24:14. > :24:18.force. The head of Shin Bet has his preferences for who could be prime
:24:18. > :24:24.minister, who should be Prime Minister and he unfortunately uses
:24:24. > :24:29.his prestige in order to influence the election. By the way, I am not
:24:29. > :24:32.sure I would do anything different if I was convinced that I wanted to
:24:32. > :24:36.a certain person to be Prime Minister, I would use my prestige