:00:14. > :00:18.coalition. It is time for HARDtalk.
:00:19. > :00:24.On 22nd April, 1993, Stephen Lawrence was murdered in South
:00:24. > :00:32.London. He was black. His attackers were white. The killing and
:00:32. > :00:38.subsequent investigation exposed of and institutional racism within the
:00:38. > :00:44.police force. My guest at today is Stephen's mother, Doreen Lawrence.
:00:44. > :00:54.Thence to her tireless campaigning, just as for her son's killers. --
:00:54. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:28.fence. Two decades on, how much has Welcome to HARDtalk. It has been
:01:28. > :01:33.pretty much two decades since your son Stephen was brutally murdered.
:01:33. > :01:40.I just wondered whether time has in any sense demanded the clarity of
:01:40. > :01:49.your recollection of that night in April 1993, when you learnt of his
:01:49. > :01:53.to me. It is something that you never expect to hear. I believe
:01:54. > :02:00.that quite often, that night, when I was told that Stephen had been
:02:00. > :02:06.attacked and subsequently found out that he was murdered. A campaign
:02:06. > :02:11.that you have fought for so long for justice. As there ever been a
:02:11. > :02:17.time, when frankly, Stephen has not been uppermost in your thoughts and
:02:17. > :02:22.the biggest priority in your life in all of those years since then?
:02:22. > :02:27.Anything that I had done over the years was trying to get justice for
:02:27. > :02:34.Stephen. The trust is to carry on the working his name and help other
:02:34. > :02:40.people. He is always at the forefront of my mind. Let's fast-
:02:40. > :02:45.forward to nastier. Pretty much one year ago, when you were there. --
:02:45. > :02:53.courtroom, courtroom, when two men were
:02:53. > :02:57.finally convicted of the murder of Stephen. Described to me your
:02:57. > :03:04.feelings as you realise that the jury had finally convicted two
:03:04. > :03:10.individuals? Leading up to that, looking at the jury's you could
:03:10. > :03:15.never tell all read anything, the information that they were
:03:16. > :03:20.receiving, that they would ever find these young men guilty. When
:03:20. > :03:25.they said the jury had made a decision, my heart was pounding
:03:25. > :03:30.away, because I did not still expect to hear the guilty verdict.
:03:30. > :03:36.When they said that, it seems like everything was going off in my head
:03:36. > :03:41.at the same time, the emotions, the tears, wanted to flow out. Because
:03:41. > :03:46.of where I was, I felt that I could not. I could not let that emotion
:03:46. > :03:51.come out. I wonder whether you had an overwhelming sense of justice
:03:51. > :03:56.being done or whether it wasn't like that? I did not feel that
:03:56. > :04:06.justice was done in the way that I would like. The time it has taking
:04:06. > :04:06.
:04:06. > :04:12.and the pain, to get two out of the Fayed was partial justice, I would
:04:12. > :04:17.have loved to see all five of them sitting in the dock. You say two of
:04:17. > :04:23.otherse are others who are still free, who
:04:23. > :04:29.should have been in that dark as well, and to in your view, I guilty
:04:29. > :04:35.of involvement in the murder of your son. -- are guilty. Definitely,
:04:35. > :04:42.definitely. What do the police say to you? Are they still
:04:42. > :04:46.investigating? As far as I am aware, they are still. But there are
:04:46. > :04:51.rumours that they feel they have done as much as they can. The judge
:04:51. > :04:57.did say to the officer who was in court, he believed that they should
:04:57. > :05:02.continue the investigation, but it is 20 years on, they feel they have
:05:02. > :05:07.spent enough money and it should come to an end. You sound quite
:05:07. > :05:10.bitter about your relationship with the police. You said not long ago,
:05:10. > :05:15.the police are not interested to do anything more, because it shows
:05:15. > :05:22.them up for their incompetence and the fact they are corrupt. A
:05:22. > :05:29.powerful statement. It played a heavy part in the first
:05:29. > :05:34.investigation. For them, not wanting to continue, because they
:05:34. > :05:40.believe that the two they have must be enough, I do not think it should.
:05:40. > :05:44.We should not have to wait 20 years to get to this position. This is
:05:44. > :05:49.back in 1993. We should not have to wait for so long to have any
:05:49. > :05:54.conviction at all. An independent lawyer is looking at allegations of
:05:54. > :05:59.corruption concerning police officers who were involved in the
:05:59. > :06:04.original investigation. Does that give you some sense of reassurance
:06:04. > :06:08.that even now, 20 years on, the police are taking seriously your
:06:08. > :06:15.complaints from the past and also your desire to see the
:06:15. > :06:22.investigation continued? I think it is great that we are having a
:06:22. > :06:28.review, because we wanted an inquiry. The public inquiry in 1999,
:06:28. > :06:34.whether he wanted to or not, he felt he couldn't, as if his hires -
:06:34. > :06:41.- hands were tied to talking about corruption. The William Macpherson
:06:41. > :06:46.panel was an extremely important moment in the entire story. We had
:06:46. > :06:50.at the most senior level, lawyers looking at what the police did, why
:06:51. > :06:55.it failed, and coming up with recommendations, both for the
:06:55. > :07:01.police as an institution but also for wider British society to combat
:07:01. > :07:06.the scourge of racism. In fact, what Jack Straw said at the time,
:07:06. > :07:10.it was a watershed, and how the case had touched Middle England, as
:07:10. > :07:19.if to say what happened to Stephen, his murder, you should have touched
:07:19. > :07:23.a Middle England a long time ago. McPherson, at the time, whether his
:07:23. > :07:27.hands were tied, but there was so much that was coming out about the
:07:27. > :07:32.police, the investigation, that corruption was another thing that
:07:32. > :07:38.they could not have dealt with the time. The public inquiry would have
:07:38. > :07:44.given us a little bit, the review is just looking at papers, whether
:07:44. > :07:49.or not they will interview anybody, I have no idea. You are concerned
:07:49. > :07:53.about corruption, but to finish on this idea of justice, there can
:07:53. > :07:58.nothing be more important than a feeling that justice has been down.
:07:58. > :08:03.Do you believe that those others, who you still insist are involved
:08:03. > :08:08.in Stephen's murder, will be brought before a court, will be
:08:08. > :08:13.charged, and will be dealt with? That is quite difficult to answer.
:08:13. > :08:19.Do I believe that they will be brought to justice? I can only hope
:08:19. > :08:24.that they will be. As I said before, the information and the evidence,
:08:24. > :08:28.right from the start, they did not have that. Nothing was concrete
:08:28. > :08:38.within the evidence that they had. Will they be able to have enough
:08:38. > :08:39.
:08:39. > :08:45.evidence for them to be tried, I do not know. Hopefully the review
:08:45. > :08:49.might be able to help. It seems to me the sense of unfinished business
:08:49. > :08:53.that you have about the legal process is yet one more way in
:08:53. > :08:58.which you have had to pay an unbelievable price, obviously you
:08:58. > :09:06.lost your son and that is the real prize, but you are not a ball ever
:09:06. > :09:12.to have a sense that this is finished. -- able. But only when I
:09:12. > :09:16.have to deal with that I tend to focus on it. If I focus on a
:09:16. > :09:23.constantly, I am not sure where exactly what I would be, mentally
:09:23. > :09:27.and physically. You did not want to be in the limelight, but you were,
:09:27. > :09:31.inevitably, because of the way in which the British public identify
:09:31. > :09:37.with your suffering, the suffering of losing a son but then feeling
:09:37. > :09:42.that justice was not being done. The system was not losing --
:09:42. > :09:47.working problem. As a result, you got access to higher senior
:09:47. > :09:52.officials, Parliament. You were even visited by Nelson Mandela at
:09:52. > :09:56.one point. Did you come to a realisation that you could use that
:09:56. > :10:00.leverage, that you had a voice in indolence that you could use not
:10:00. > :10:08.just in your own case, but in the wider issue of race relations in
:10:08. > :10:13.the UK? Yes, I have spoken to ministers many times. I used to get
:10:13. > :10:19.letters from members of the public. They would come to see me. I would
:10:19. > :10:25.raise their suffering. The fact that I have a boys, I felt that was
:10:25. > :10:29.important, to be able to address the issues. I'm not sure I was able
:10:29. > :10:36.to make a big difference in their cases, but I was able to raise an
:10:36. > :10:40.issue with ministers. How do you want to use that for us now, not
:10:40. > :10:46.just in the case of Stephen, but also in some of the other issues
:10:46. > :10:52.raised by his death, particularly as it was described by it
:10:52. > :10:58.Macpherson report, institutional racism in the Metropolitan Police?
:10:58. > :11:02.Do you believe that racism is still present? I believe that racism is
:11:02. > :11:07.still present within the Metropolitan Police. That I think
:11:07. > :11:14.over the years, I have worked with quite a few civil officers, I have
:11:15. > :11:22.worked within the Home Office, the stop-and-search group, I shed.
:11:22. > :11:27.fascinates me, used shed a trust do not have either trust or
:11:27. > :11:32.confidence in the police. I have met some officers that I had real
:11:32. > :11:40.respect for respect fore that I do not. The idea of the trust and
:11:40. > :11:44.the Community could work with the police to gain trust. In some areas
:11:44. > :11:48.we have made a difference that there is still a lot of work that
:11:48. > :11:52.needs to be down. In the last couple of days -- years where it
:11:52. > :11:57.has been rolling around the stop- and-search issue, the public are
:11:57. > :12:02.beginning to lose their trust. Stop-and-search issues are very
:12:02. > :12:06.topical, particularly in your family. Just a couple of months ago,
:12:06. > :12:10.your son launched a formal complaint with police after he had
:12:10. > :12:15.been stopped for the 25th time driving his car, doing nothing
:12:15. > :12:22.illegal, stopped by the police and questioned. It is now in the hands
:12:22. > :12:25.of an independent investigation. It is being overseen by the
:12:25. > :12:31.Independent Police Complaints Commission. You obviously talk to
:12:31. > :12:38.your son. Do you believe that he feels he is the victim of racism,
:12:38. > :12:43.right now, right here in London? Yes he does. They cannot justify
:12:43. > :12:48.the reason why they stopped him. Listen to the terminology that they
:12:48. > :12:53.use, section 12, or whatever it is, and not tell him exactly what it
:12:53. > :12:58.means, they do not have a document dating show, tell me what it is,
:12:59. > :13:03.but they cannot do it. But the police had to protect and secured
:13:03. > :13:08.the city. And they know that there are parts of London, perhaps not so
:13:08. > :13:11.far away from where you live, that crime rates are very high. A
:13:11. > :13:18.significant proportion of the crimes are committed by young black
:13:18. > :13:23.males. Is it unreasonable and to consider that reality in the way
:13:23. > :13:27.they police the streets of those neighbourhoods? If they think that
:13:27. > :13:34.crime is committed snigger get me by young black men, they need to
:13:34. > :13:40.have the figures to prove that. -- significantly. We want the police
:13:40. > :13:49.to be able to do the jobs to make sure that we are said, nobody would
:13:49. > :13:53.carry out the job. But that is what is questionable, the attitude and
:13:53. > :13:59.behaviour of officers, who they stop and when they stop, and who
:13:59. > :14:04.they select. You said that BR has changed in the police but the
:14:04. > :14:08.officers on the street have not. You talk about having data and
:14:08. > :14:11.evidence, where is your evidence, despite everything that it
:14:11. > :14:15.Macpherson said, the training programmes, three successive
:14:15. > :14:25.commissioners saying they have zero tolerance for racism, where is your
:14:25. > :14:27.
:14:27. > :14:33.evidence that things have not changed? One big example. 18 months
:14:33. > :14:43.ago, we had a meeting close to Scotland Yard. This is before the
:14:43. > :14:45.
:14:45. > :14:52.trial happened the year before last. We went up for our meeting. As we
:14:52. > :14:58.the desk, be careful what you say, you do not know who is listening.
:14:58. > :15:04.And I said, what is this about? The officers said, Doreen Lawrence is
:15:04. > :15:14.in the building. They should be ashamed to show their faces here.
:15:14. > :15:16.
:15:16. > :15:21.If that does not tell me that You have access to politicians. You
:15:21. > :15:26.talk to Prime Minister has from time to time. Do you believe the
:15:26. > :15:29.David Cameron-led coalition Government is listening to your
:15:29. > :15:39.concerns and is making sure the fight to combat racism is
:15:39. > :15:39.
:15:39. > :15:44.this government. I feel that racism is not on the agenda. A letter went
:15:44. > :15:51.to the Prime Minister. This was about public equality duties and
:15:51. > :15:56.about race. I have received a letter back saying that it is on
:15:56. > :16:03.the agenda. Unless I can see definitely, I do not believe that
:16:03. > :16:07.it is. You can say words, but how true is that?
:16:07. > :16:12.They brought you a letter in December saying that your son's
:16:12. > :16:16.legacy was to change the way we think about race in this country
:16:16. > :16:22.and they want to reiterate the government's commitment to equal
:16:22. > :16:31.opportunity. If you look at the Equality Bill, race is not one of
:16:31. > :16:36.the words that they use. The use diversity. Race itself and how the
:16:36. > :16:41.black community is treated, I do not feel that they are taking it
:16:41. > :16:50.seriously. seriously. letters and say words. Let me bring
:16:50. > :16:54.it back to you and your life and I am intrigued, when you look
:16:54. > :16:58.around, literature grandchildren, you consider the way that their
:16:58. > :17:02.lives are as young black people in London today and you think about
:17:02. > :17:08.the way things have changed in the last 20 years since Stephen's death,
:17:08. > :17:13.do you really think that not much has changed for the better? I would
:17:13. > :17:18.not say that. A lot has changed. I did not say things have not changed.
:17:18. > :17:24.A lot of things have changed. I think my concern is how much things
:17:24. > :17:30.have been rolled back. If we are not careful, all of the work and
:17:30. > :17:35.all of the recommendations from the report, if you ask people in the
:17:35. > :17:42.black community, what has changed for you, of poor have since moved
:17:42. > :17:47.on to, they will tell you that not much has changed for them. -- Where
:17:47. > :17:53.Have things move for you? confidence to UC channels that are
:17:53. > :18:00.available, but you have had to learn to use over 20 years, can you
:18:00. > :18:07.see ways to help others in your community gain confidence? Yes. I
:18:07. > :18:12.try to do it. I suggest what they can do to address the issues. There
:18:12. > :18:16.is not much I can do personally with individuals. I can tell them
:18:16. > :18:21.my experiences. You have a charitable trust. You have poured a
:18:21. > :18:25.lot of resources into that along with government funding into
:18:25. > :18:30.helping disadvantaged minority kids get a leg up, particularly into the
:18:30. > :18:36.profession that your son wanted to get into. Architecture. That has
:18:36. > :18:41.worked well. We can show what we have done over the past 12 years,
:18:41. > :18:46.how much young people have progressed. There are two of them
:18:46. > :18:50.who have started their own practices. Four were five of them
:18:50. > :18:58.are architects. They have not qualified. In that respect, we have
:18:58. > :19:02.fought hard. One thing that strikes me is that you point to the rolling
:19:02. > :19:06.back of some of the advances made in the last couple of years -- he
:19:06. > :19:11.last 20 years and you talk about the commitment of some of the
:19:11. > :19:16.police to take on this anti-racism agenda. I wondered whether a part
:19:16. > :19:21.of you is angry with this country. You were born in Jamaica. You came
:19:21. > :19:26.here. I wonder whether a part of you thinks this country has let you
:19:26. > :19:29.down badly. Part of it has but I would not say that I have not
:19:29. > :19:33.benefited from being in this country. I would never say that.
:19:33. > :19:41.Malik has been difficult, especially since Stephen's death. -
:19:41. > :19:46.- my life. Since Stephen's death, it has been difficult. At the same
:19:46. > :19:50.time, I have used thing to my advantage and for my family and I
:19:50. > :19:55.have also tried to help other individuals. And not just doing
:19:55. > :20:00.things for me. Everything I do is looking to support others, rather
:20:00. > :20:04.than just myself. I would say that I have and other people have
:20:04. > :20:10.progressed. And yet you and the family took the
:20:10. > :20:15.decision to bury Stephen back in Jamaica. You seem to have a lot of
:20:15. > :20:20.symbolic power with that decision. Why did you take it? At the time, I
:20:20. > :20:24.was very angry. I felt that Stephen would not be able to rest in peace
:20:25. > :20:30.in this country. I did not think the country deserve to have him
:20:30. > :20:35.here. I have not regretted burying him in Jamaica. Over the years, the
:20:35. > :20:39.spot where he died has been attacked how many times? I think
:20:39. > :20:43.his grave to be desecrated quite a few times. I have not regretted
:20:44. > :20:49.that. The spot where he died in south London has been subject to
:20:49. > :20:57.attack and graffiti? Yes. Have you been subject to threat and a tie?
:20:57. > :21:07.Yes. In the early days, our car was attacked. We get letters sent to
:21:07. > :21:16.the trust about me. Recently, one came through about Stuart, my other
:21:16. > :21:22.son. Of a people are angry. Stephen's name brings pupils angry.
:21:22. > :21:27.Does that make you fearful? Does it make steward fearful? I told him
:21:27. > :21:31.yesterday to be careful when he is out. I always worry. I tell him not
:21:31. > :21:35.to be out too late and I worry about him travelling home. The fear
:21:35. > :21:41.is always there. I find that staggering, really, that you,
:21:41. > :21:46.Doreen Lawrence, you have become something of a symbol in this
:21:46. > :21:51.country in the fight for racial equality and fairness, you now feel,
:21:51. > :21:57.still, 20 years after Stephen's death, frightened, certainly to be
:21:57. > :22:03.out on your own on the streets of London. Yes, yes. Not everybody out
:22:03. > :22:09.there thinks what I have done is grid. There are still people out
:22:09. > :22:13.there, many a time, people will say things like Stephen should not be
:22:13. > :22:18.here anyway. They say things like that should have happened to him.
:22:18. > :22:23.There have been threats. A taken seriously. I don't think I am going
:22:23. > :22:28.to be safe wherever I am out. going back to this point about his
:22:28. > :22:34.burial in Jamaica, do you ever think that the struggle has been
:22:34. > :22:40.long and hard and, actually, I might go back to Jamaica myself?
:22:40. > :22:44.I have never thought about going back to Jamaica. I do not know the
:22:44. > :22:49.country very well. I visit the country. There is a difference
:22:49. > :22:56.between visiting and living. I do not think that I will pack up and
:22:56. > :23:01.never come back. I felt that Steve and at the right thing. -- I feel
:23:01. > :23:06.that we did the right thing with Steve and was angry. I wish I could
:23:06. > :23:11.visit his grave more often. I want to end of the final question about
:23:11. > :23:17.Stephen. We began with the day of his death. It is pretty much 20
:23:17. > :23:21.years on. How do you think he would feel about your long struggle? I
:23:21. > :23:27.don't know if you can picture him in your mind's eye but what do you
:23:27. > :23:31.think he did say to you? I think he would be proud of me. I
:23:31. > :23:36.remember when I was always worrying about him going out on the street
:23:36. > :23:41.and I told him to be careful and he would say "mother, do you know what
:23:41. > :23:48.your problem is, you worry too much." Even know he would be proud,
:23:48. > :23:55.he would think, "do you have to go on for so long?" I think that he
:23:55. > :24:00.deserved better. I think he him. If I can detect some other
:24:00. > :24:04.families and some other children, that is what I will do. -- If I can
:24:04. > :24:14.protect. I do it for my own children. Stephen would think