:00:04. > :00:11.General John Allen has been cleared. This next, HARDtalk. Greece beat
:00:11. > :00:18.Paul Bhatti, the Minister in Charge of National Harmony.
:00:18. > :00:24.My guest today is a government minister who is job description is
:00:24. > :00:27.ironic given his country's current terms. Paul Bhatti is Pakistan's
:00:27. > :00:31.Minister in Charge of National Harmony. It is a job he accepted
:00:31. > :00:38.after his brother was assassinated while serving as a minorities
:00:38. > :00:43.Minister. The family is from the Christian minority in Pakistan.
:00:43. > :00:53.What hope is there for national harmony in a country disfigured by
:00:53. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:22.extremist violence and endemic Paul Bhatti, Welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:22. > :01:27.Award to take you back, if I may, to that terrible moment in 2011. He
:01:27. > :01:34.learned that your brother, Shahbaz Bhatti, had been assassinated. How
:01:34. > :01:39.much of a shock was that? Actually, that was really shocking news. In
:01:39. > :01:44.fact, in his last month, before his assassination, he had been sharing
:01:44. > :01:49.with me that he was receiving threats. I was quite sure that he
:01:49. > :01:59.would be cured. I was quite convinced but never thought about
:01:59. > :02:06.it. One month before, I caught him in Italy. You were a doctor in
:02:06. > :02:11.Italy. Yes. You knew that as your brother was Minister for minorities
:02:11. > :02:21.in Pakistan, which was a sensitive and high profile post, he knew
:02:21. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:31.there were people who wanted to do away with him. Yes. Not -- he was
:02:31. > :02:41.following a struggle. He was against terrorism, sectarian
:02:41. > :02:41.
:02:42. > :02:46.violence and Islam. He shared these things with me. Before it happened,
:02:46. > :02:56.I was quite concerned and I asked him to leave the country for some
:02:56. > :02:57.
:02:57. > :03:01.months already us. -- or years. I was shocked that some people were
:03:01. > :03:11.telling his isolation was already planned. I was really shocked.
:03:11. > :03:14.
:03:14. > :03:18.would not listen to you. Yes. His concern was that he wanted to
:03:18. > :03:26.protect the minorities and repressed. He could not leave that
:03:26. > :03:35.purpose. He had a strong fate that he expressed openly everywhere. He
:03:35. > :03:41.said he had left his hands in -- life in the hands on Jesus Christ.
:03:41. > :03:45.I know your brother was a practising Christian. I know you
:03:45. > :03:51.are as well. You have spoken about the difficulties you had coping
:03:51. > :03:56.with the murder of your brother. For a time, you felt angry at your
:03:56. > :04:06.country for what had happened to him. Does that feeling of anger
:04:06. > :04:08.
:04:08. > :04:15.still apply? Now it has changed. I received this news of assassination.
:04:15. > :04:25.countrthe country forever. I would stay in
:04:25. > :04:25.
:04:25. > :04:30.Italy and never go back to Pakistan. When I reached there, people were
:04:30. > :04:40.chanting slogans. It was different. People were concerned with his
:04:40. > :04:41.
:04:41. > :04:47.assassination. I could feel how the minorities were protected. People
:04:48. > :04:57.were asking, now what? He would follow his vision and mission? He
:04:57. > :05:07.asked me to follow. I discussed with him. He may an example of his
:05:07. > :05:08.
:05:08. > :05:18.own life. Our President did not step back. It is interesting to
:05:18. > :05:18.
:05:18. > :05:22.compare the decision you had to make with as a Dari. You made a
:05:22. > :05:28.conscious decision to leave. You were a very successful doctor in
:05:28. > :05:34.Italy. You had a very tough decision to make when the Pakistani
:05:34. > :05:41.government invited you to come back and become the Minister of national
:05:41. > :05:51.harmony. Heart of a decision was that? In the beginning, it was
:05:51. > :05:52.
:05:52. > :05:58.tough. I have no other choice. I had only to my choices - To Follow
:05:59. > :06:05.my practice in Italy, or follow the mission of my brother. The
:06:06. > :06:12.protection of not just minorities but protecting any kind of
:06:12. > :06:17.discrimination -- discriminated people's. From intolerance.
:06:17. > :06:21.know what happened to your brother and what happened to my months
:06:21. > :06:29.earlier to the Governor of Punjab, who have been a high-profile
:06:29. > :06:34.opponents of the current blasphemy law. He was as a -- assassinated as
:06:34. > :06:38.well. Your family thought it was wrong for you to give up your
:06:38. > :06:45.doctoring and give up Italy and go back to this extraordinarily
:06:45. > :06:55.exposed position. Did the advice not weigh heavily with you? In some
:06:55. > :06:57.
:06:57. > :07:01.ways, my family was not happy. On the other hand, I think and I
:07:01. > :07:07.believe that none involvement should not be an option because of
:07:07. > :07:12.the country's challenges. If you can do something, you have to
:07:12. > :07:18.prepare for it. Even if you know these things you do will cause you
:07:18. > :07:24.to create new enemies for yourself? That is true. But you have to find
:07:24. > :07:29.new ways and means in the way you can perform your duties safely. I
:07:29. > :07:35.will challenge everything that will kill me. How do you know that? In
:07:35. > :07:38.Pakistan today, how can you believe that you can trust your own
:07:38. > :07:43.security? There could happened to the other man killed by his own
:07:43. > :07:48.bodyguards. You are right. You never know. It is a risk you have
:07:48. > :07:55.to take. I don't want to tell you how to live your life. But you take
:07:55. > :08:00.extraordinary risks. The little girl, he was last year accused of
:08:00. > :08:07.blasphemy because she allegedly, according to some burned pages of
:08:07. > :08:12.the Koran, it turned out, it seems, she had developmental issues. It
:08:12. > :08:15.turned out the case was nonsense. Nonetheless, it was an
:08:15. > :08:20.extraordinarily high profile case. Many religious community leaders
:08:20. > :08:25.wanted the blasphemy case to go forward. You are offered for a
:08:25. > :08:30.shorter in your own home. Yes. That is a true. I shall mention that
:08:30. > :08:40.this case was a matter of great encouragement for May. Following
:08:40. > :08:54.
:08:54. > :09:02.this case, and protecting Rimsha One side is that with so many more
:09:02. > :09:08.than leaders. -- I discussed with so many more than leaders.
:09:08. > :09:15.Religious leaders wanted to equity this case. They did understand that
:09:15. > :09:18.this was the issue of blasphemy. can see that as a sort of optimism.
:09:18. > :09:27.I stay the fundamentals of this blasphemy argument have not gone
:09:27. > :09:33.away. Pakistan's tour has draconian blasphemy laws. Non-Muslims can be
:09:33. > :09:39.accused of blasphemy. They can be liable to a death sentence based
:09:39. > :09:45.purely on witness evidence. But the laws have not been changed. Your
:09:45. > :09:55.brother wanted them changed and reformed. Have you back away from
:09:55. > :09:55.
:09:55. > :10:04.the call for fundamental reform? do not step back. We were never
:10:04. > :10:13.like that. We were continuously working down there. We were unable
:10:13. > :10:19.to get the repeal. Hang on a minute. Surely, the laws themselves are
:10:19. > :10:24.problematic. One can point to the former minister, now US ambassador,
:10:24. > :10:28.he was adamant that the problem is the law itself, the way it is
:10:28. > :10:38.constructed, the premises upon which their adult is fundamentally
:10:38. > :10:39.
:10:39. > :10:43.wrong. -- build. But most of these cases of blasphemy, like with
:10:43. > :10:49.Rimsha Masih and others, they are not only Christians but Muslims can
:10:49. > :10:55.be victims of his blasphemy law, they are falsely accused. What we
:10:55. > :11:03.have to do is we have defined the way and means of how we can prevent
:11:03. > :11:07.the misuse of this law, is -- Law. Looking at it today, things have
:11:07. > :11:13.not improved that much. With the case of Rimsha Masih, things get
:11:13. > :11:17.you some hope. Take the case of the mother who remains on death row,
:11:17. > :11:23.convicted of blasphemy, sentenced to death by hanging. She has been
:11:23. > :11:28.languishing in jail for years. Her husband is appealing all over the
:11:28. > :11:35.world for clemency. As the minister for national harmony, are you
:11:35. > :11:45.prepared to say to may that you will ask your President to pardon
:11:45. > :11:49.her and offer clemency? It is decided by the law that she is
:11:49. > :11:56.guilty for the blasphemy law. Now she is waiting for the appeal in
:11:56. > :12:01.the High Court. Afterwards, in the court, if they decide that she is
:12:01. > :12:11.guilty and she should be punished for, then the President of Pakistan
:12:11. > :12:11.
:12:11. > :12:20.can take inspection on that. She has to make other possibilities. It
:12:20. > :12:25.is a different situation. It will become a high-profile case. Without
:12:25. > :12:31.wishing to push you too hard, this is for a delicate with the death of
:12:31. > :12:36.your brother. Your brother was very loud in his demand for clemency.
:12:36. > :12:42.You are not quite as large. Is that because after seeing what happened
:12:42. > :12:52.to your brother... They are two factors I'm not sure of. After the
:12:52. > :12:52.
:12:52. > :13:02.assassination of my brother, the cases handled by some other people
:13:02. > :13:05.toured she has to ask me and horse was legally to fight her case. Had
:13:05. > :13:10.-- her husband are not let me to follow her case, may be on good
:13:10. > :13:20.faith. He did not want me to get into trouble. Unless they do not
:13:20. > :13:21.
:13:21. > :13:26.ask me to follow, I personally cannot support them. Even if we ask
:13:26. > :13:31.the President, the present is not conditioned to grant clemency when
:13:31. > :13:35.she has to make other possibilities of the High Court and Supreme Court.
:13:35. > :13:45.It is fair to say that minorities in Pakistan do not have faith in
:13:45. > :13:47.
:13:47. > :13:57.the fairness of the justice system. They do not appear to have faith in
:13:57. > :13:59.
:13:59. > :14:09.the justice system. I cannot say that 100%. In this case... That is
:14:09. > :14:11.
:14:11. > :14:16.just one case. Paul Bhatti, a man with the same name as yourself, he
:14:16. > :14:22.said Pakistan is a country where justice is never guaranteed for
:14:22. > :14:32.religious minorities. I cannot agree with that, several times we
:14:32. > :14:36.
:14:36. > :14:42.have an advantage position. You are a and the Member of Parliament with
:14:42. > :14:46.a senior position... There is a fundamental issue of impunity. Many
:14:46. > :14:53.minority communities do not believe that when they are wrong that there
:14:53. > :14:57.is any chance that justice will be done against the perpetrators
:14:57. > :15:07.against them. You know the killers of you rather have not been brought
:15:07. > :15:08.
:15:08. > :15:16.to justice. -- your brother. Pakistan is passing through a very
:15:16. > :15:25.serious phase. There is extremism, sectarianism. There is violence
:15:25. > :15:35.against Muslims as well. If you see the Shia killed... I want to get to
:15:35. > :15:39.
:15:39. > :15:44.that. Just stick to this idea of impunity. It is not just the
:15:44. > :15:49.Christian community. The whole country is like that. Indeed. On
:15:49. > :15:59.the question of who killed your brother, do you believe the 30s
:15:59. > :16:11.
:16:11. > :16:21.have a clearer idea? -- authorities have a clear idea? INAUDIBLE. After
:16:21. > :16:24.
:16:24. > :16:29.his assassination there was some conflict. It was in his struggle
:16:29. > :16:35.against extremism... Pakistani intelligence has very good sources,
:16:35. > :16:42.they know an awful lot about the Pakistani Taliban yet no attempt
:16:42. > :16:52.has been made to nail the killers of your brother. I wonder how you
:16:52. > :16:52.
:16:52. > :17:00.feel about that sitting in the Pakistani cabinet. The Interior
:17:00. > :17:04.Ministry and intelligence, they have followed this case. The
:17:04. > :17:08.Minister of the interior explain to me they are killers, they know
:17:08. > :17:15.about them, they belong to a banned religious organisation, they are
:17:15. > :17:21.out of the country. In a word, do you believe that? I have to believe
:17:21. > :17:30.it. Let's look at some critics who are more outspoken than you right
:17:30. > :17:36.now. Your own college in government, the ambassador who is now in the US.
:17:36. > :17:45.She was pretty much forced to leave Pakistan because she was such a
:17:45. > :17:53.loud but Honan of the blasphemy law that the government felt they could
:17:53. > :18:00.not guarantee her safety. -- opponent. She says appeasement does
:18:00. > :18:08.not work, it caused us more and more extremism. When she was
:18:08. > :18:13.struggling with my brother to change the blasphemy law. It has
:18:14. > :18:22.now been abandoned. It is quite clear the government will not touch
:18:22. > :18:27.it. It was not representative in the Cabinet this policy. The
:18:27. > :18:37.assassination of my brother, she did not have to leave the country
:18:37. > :18:37.
:18:37. > :18:47.for this reason. She received several threats, but after her
:18:47. > :18:50.
:18:50. > :18:57.several months she stayed in the country. It came out a few days
:18:57. > :19:02.that if there is something personally against her. She still
:19:02. > :19:09.faces problems in the Pakistani courts. Despite all the problems
:19:09. > :19:19.and turmoil we see inside Pakistan, this harmony, there is plenty of
:19:19. > :19:20.
:19:20. > :19:26.turmoil and troubling you drop off. We do not see perpetrators of
:19:26. > :19:30.violence,. -- trouble in your country. Shia leaders are absurdly
:19:30. > :19:34.furious that the government has failed to protect them from these
:19:34. > :19:40.militant groups. We have seen the results with the terrible bombings
:19:40. > :19:49.in Quetta where more than 100 people were killed. That is true.
:19:49. > :19:58.The condition in the north of Pakistan where there is an
:19:58. > :20:02.terrorism and a lot of groups combating military people. We have
:20:02. > :20:09.lost more than 40,000 law enforcement people. I cannot forget
:20:09. > :20:15.your title, minister for national harmony, since you took over,
:20:15. > :20:20.things have got worse. More than 450 Shia Muslims killed in targeted
:20:20. > :20:27.sectarian attacks last year. This year has started even worse. You
:20:27. > :20:33.have not been able to improve the situation for stocked of course. --
:20:34. > :20:41.situation. We want to promote inter-faith dialogue and
:20:41. > :20:50.relationships. Where is it? Between people of different faiths. We are
:20:50. > :20:56.trying to do that. It is not easy to eradicate in a few months. You
:20:56. > :21:01.have to make policies and to have to convince these people. One of
:21:01. > :21:10.the most difficult things is to change a mindset of a people. The
:21:10. > :21:20.country is facing a very difficult period. Our role will take some
:21:20. > :21:23.
:21:23. > :21:28.time. I think we need the space for this inter-faith dialogue. I do not
:21:28. > :21:33.think anyone would assume this is easy. It requires a government that
:21:33. > :21:36.has credibility and a record of strong leadership inside the
:21:36. > :21:43.country to take play ball to a place where they do not necessarily
:21:43. > :21:49.want to go. -- people. The problem is, your government does not have
:21:49. > :21:54.credibility. Look at the polls, the number one problem is corruption in
:21:54. > :21:58.government. We have had much as in Islamabad against corruption. You
:21:58. > :22:05.are an outsider who has come back in, which you accept the government
:22:05. > :22:11.is riddled with corruption? -- would you. These are allegations.
:22:11. > :22:18.If you look at the history of Pakistan, all governments have the
:22:18. > :22:28.same allegations. It is not as if our government... After
:22:28. > :22:30.
:22:30. > :22:35.independence everyone was charged with this kind of... The country
:22:35. > :22:41.has so many powers that have destabilised the country. We are
:22:41. > :22:46.unable to make a stable system where basic values can grow. It is
:22:46. > :22:54.corrosive, isn't it? Corrosive of any ability the government or might
:22:54. > :23:00.have to take tough decisions. present government do not have an
:23:00. > :23:06.absolute majority. We have alliances with other parties. Many
:23:06. > :23:11.times we do not agree with everything. Let me end on a
:23:11. > :23:16.personal note, your decision to go back strikes me as courageous. You
:23:16. > :23:24.have spoken about your wife and daughter. I cannot help thinking
:23:24. > :23:30.that you left Italy to go back to a country where we know it another
:23:30. > :23:36.girl was actually shot because she wanted girls to get an education.
:23:36. > :23:44.Do you ever regret going back? Having your family in Pakistan in
:23:44. > :23:52.the current climate? It is not easy to live in Pakistan, but on the
:23:52. > :23:59.other hand if you want to change something in your community and you
:23:59. > :24:04.have the of possibility to do that. I was very close with my younger
:24:04. > :24:09.brother, I shared many things with him. I knew how he was struggling
:24:09. > :24:17.with this. In the Christian community I feel that I can make