:00:11. > :00:16.discovered in Lyme Bay in Dorset. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:20.When a radical reform must Muslim cleric, Tahir-ul-Qadri, returned it
:00:20. > :00:25.to his native Pakistan from Canada last December, he promised a
:00:25. > :00:29.Million man March on parliament to. The government and bring in
:00:29. > :00:34.electoral reform, in the event, only tens of thousands of
:00:34. > :00:38.protesters turned out, and just four days into the much, he made a
:00:38. > :00:46.deal with the government. Tahir-ul- Qadri says he also wants to reclaim
:00:46. > :00:56.his lamb from the terrorists and extremists. Is his voice of wires,
:00:56. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:28.or is he an out of touch, Tahir-ul-Qadri, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:28. > :01:38.When you went back in December to Pakistan, you said you wanted to
:01:38. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:45.save the state. Save it from what exactly? I mean that Pakistan is
:01:45. > :01:50.known to be the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, it was formed for
:01:50. > :01:53.democracy, the rule of law, for social and economic justice, for
:01:54. > :01:59.protection of human rights, but nothing has been delivered
:01:59. > :02:04.according to the constitution of Pakistan, and nothing has been
:02:04. > :02:11.delivered as the fruits of democracy to the people. The
:02:11. > :02:15.government has totally failed to establish, to stabilise the
:02:15. > :02:18.institutions, and to establish the government in different areas of
:02:18. > :02:23.Pakistan, and to eradicate extremism and terrorism from our
:02:23. > :02:28.land. Pakistan has become a threat to neighbouring countries and a
:02:28. > :02:35.threat to the whole world because of the import of terrorism and the
:02:35. > :02:39.export of terrorism. We have become a sinking ship. How many people
:02:40. > :02:47.agree with you? You say that you wanted to turn Islamabad into
:02:47. > :02:54.Tahrir Square, you said you wanted a mass protest movement outside
:02:54. > :03:01.Parliament, where is it? There is nobody there. The problem is that
:03:01. > :03:08.when we started from Pakistan, Punjab, 25,000 buses which were
:03:08. > :03:15.bought by the Government of Punjab to pressurise the people, and the
:03:15. > :03:19.advance money was given back, all the bookings were cancelled. They
:03:19. > :03:28.captured their licences and their permits. The police captured it
:03:28. > :03:35.punctured, and all the roads were blocked. People had to walk to
:03:35. > :03:40.Islamabad on different tracks, hiding... going to different routes,
:03:40. > :03:45.so instead of this, people were successful in reaching there.
:03:45. > :03:50.Hundreds of thousands. You say hundreds of thousands, the
:03:50. > :03:55.authorities in Pakistan had a very different figure. The Pakistani
:03:55. > :04:00.intelligence bureaux say that 40,000 people turned out. The
:04:00. > :04:06.Islamabad police say 30,000, and other intelligence agencies say
:04:06. > :04:12.50,000. A very big difference in the figure. I would tell you about
:04:12. > :04:18.the Pakistani intelligence agency. When they say 10, you imagined that
:04:18. > :04:23.it is 100. They always tell lies. When they mention 20, it is 200.
:04:23. > :04:28.This is the practice, the norm that has given to them. They are not
:04:28. > :04:33.allowed to mention the real figures. They will be caught by their
:04:33. > :04:42.officers. They will say, why did you allow the people to a riot in
:04:42. > :04:47.such a large number? -- to arrive. Why are you calling for regime
:04:47. > :04:54.change for a democratically elected government? The party of the late
:04:54. > :04:59.Benazir Bhutto, they won the elections fair and square in 2008.
:04:59. > :05:09.I never wanted to topple the government. That is why we waited
:05:09. > :05:09.
:05:09. > :05:15.for five years. So they could complete their tenure. So they may
:05:15. > :05:20.be able to deliver whatever they can deliver. But every single day,
:05:20. > :05:24.the dead bodies they are finding on the land, terrorist attacks are
:05:24. > :05:29.everywhere, the bodies were there for four days, they had nobody to
:05:30. > :05:35.bury them, there is no law and order, people are not getting food,
:05:35. > :05:45.not getting education, there are no health facilities, investment in
:05:45. > :05:45.
:05:45. > :05:52.the social sector, no stability and democracy. The only demand an
:05:52. > :05:57.election... why do you say that they engineered the polls? I said
:05:57. > :06:01.you, when they won the election in 2008, the European Union and other
:06:01. > :06:05.international bodies said that the election was wholly free and fair.
:06:05. > :06:14.Why are you implying that they are trying to Reed this coming
:06:14. > :06:18.election? This is very clear. I have been part of this process. I
:06:18. > :06:23.have contested in elections and I had seen everything with my own
:06:23. > :06:30.eyes. The only thing that is required, money, might and
:06:30. > :06:33.manipulation. You say money is needed, but you have been running
:06:33. > :06:43.television advertisements trying to push forward your agenda, where are
:06:43. > :06:44.
:06:44. > :06:50.you getting your money from? have hundreds of thousands of
:06:50. > :06:58.members. They pay a fee to our party. In Pakistan and overseas
:06:58. > :07:04.Pakistani. We have spent millions of rupees. We have established up
:07:04. > :07:09.to 1,000 schools with our own resources. We have established an
:07:09. > :07:14.orphanage for 1,000 orphan boys. We have established our own
:07:14. > :07:20.institution, Welfare Society, we are spending billions of billions
:07:20. > :07:26.of Reed -- rupees. But the other parties are also carrying out
:07:26. > :07:31.similar social welfare programmes. You have your Islamic organisation,
:07:31. > :07:35.but I want to ask you this, you say that you are doing all this in the
:07:35. > :07:39.name of the people of Pakistan, you have formed your own political
:07:39. > :07:46.party, and yet you do not have a single seat in the National
:07:46. > :07:54.Assembly. What is your mandate to do all of this? The authority and
:07:54. > :07:58.the right belongs to the people of Pakistan. A lot of parties have
:07:58. > :08:04.popular support despite the fact they are not sitting in parliament.
:08:04. > :08:08.Because of the corrupt electoral system, we did not get any seats.
:08:08. > :08:14.Because when I was a Member of Parliament, I have resigned after
:08:14. > :08:22.two years. How many seats did you Party have at the time? Just a
:08:22. > :08:28.couple? I won my seat. But since I am telling that the whole process,
:08:28. > :08:32.the law says that you cannot spend more than one million rupees on a
:08:32. > :08:41.seat, and more than 1.5 million rupees for a National Assembly seat,
:08:41. > :08:46.but the actual money spent is about 100 million rupees, against the law.
:08:46. > :08:52.It violates the constitution. So the common man is unable to fight
:08:52. > :08:58.the election. We have contested four people, not the winning horses,
:08:58. > :09:03.that is the problem. You say that you command widespread appeal, but
:09:03. > :09:08.I tell you what the Conservative MP says, who for many years was an
:09:08. > :09:13.aide to Benazir Bhutto. He says I challenge his appeal to the people
:09:13. > :09:17.of Pakistan and his credibility. He has no nationwide support across
:09:17. > :09:27.the four provinces of Pakistan, and he goes further, he says that you
:09:27. > :09:32.have no commitment to democracy. What do you say to that? He is the
:09:32. > :09:37.conservative British Pakistani, Conservative MP, who for many years
:09:37. > :09:43.was a aide to the late Benazir Bhutto. I would not comment on
:09:43. > :09:47.anybody's statement, but I will say that people have seen the gathering
:09:48. > :09:52.of 23rd December, hundreds of thousands of people were there, and
:09:52. > :09:59.for the last 65 years, this was the biggest people's gathering in the
:09:59. > :10:06.history of Pakistan. You can beat the newspapers. Any English
:10:06. > :10:10.newspaper has not claimed that any other gathering, except this one...
:10:11. > :10:16.I have to challenge that. When Benazir Bhutto went back in October
:10:16. > :10:21.2007, just before she was assassinated, 3 million turned out
:10:21. > :10:26.to meet her. When her son spoke recently, again, hundreds of
:10:26. > :10:31.thousands turned out. You had tens of thousands.
:10:31. > :10:38.One can say 3 million, one can say 4 million, but if you go through
:10:38. > :10:48.all newspapers published, on 24th December...
:10:48. > :10:54.We are not going to fight. They say it is the biggest gathering. If we
:10:54. > :10:59.do not have a populist base, where do these people come from?
:10:59. > :11:04.figures are disputed. There can be a dispute on the figures. What
:11:04. > :11:14.about the fact that you are not seen with somebody -- as somebody
:11:14. > :11:14.
:11:14. > :11:18.with proper democratic credentials? Did you yourself are not say it in
:11:18. > :11:22.December, there are only two institutions in Pakistan that are
:11:22. > :11:27.functioning, one is the judiciary and one is the armed forces, and
:11:27. > :11:35.that has made people worried, that in some way you are trying to
:11:35. > :11:42.invite the military to come back into Pakistani politics. He is not
:11:42. > :11:50.an authority on the politics. not just him. He has a right to say.
:11:50. > :11:56.What ever he wants. Address the substance of the criticism.
:11:56. > :12:04.substance is that when... I never invited the military or the
:12:04. > :12:08.judiciary to get involved in politics, or to get involved in the
:12:08. > :12:13.next coming government. My only concern was that these institutions
:12:13. > :12:16.should ensure for the stability of Pakistan, the stability of
:12:16. > :12:22.democracy, they are the people who are coming to take over the next
:12:22. > :12:27.government. They are not parties and people, they should be totally
:12:27. > :12:37.honest and impartial, so they ensured the transparency, fairness,
:12:37. > :12:51.
:12:52. > :13:01.This has never happened. The same words have been declared by the
:13:01. > :13:08.Supreme Court of Pakistan. This was a judgment in June 2012. This type
:13:08. > :13:13.of standard has never taken place. Can I just carry on? I am sure
:13:13. > :13:22.everybody would say that they want free and fair elections in Pakistan.
:13:22. > :13:27.With the military, can I ask you, can I put to you what they say?
:13:27. > :13:31.There are reports and informed speculation that the most
:13:31. > :13:37.widespread theory behind your return to Pakistan was that it was
:13:37. > :13:40.prompted by the military and that they are turning to you to
:13:40. > :13:47.destabilise the be political scene and potentially create a situation
:13:47. > :13:55.in which they elections are delayed. Are you being used as a tool by the
:13:55. > :14:05.military? I totally get this accusation. The same type of
:14:05. > :14:09.accusation has been launched at the British establishment behind me.
:14:09. > :14:17.The same false allegation has been launched at the American
:14:17. > :14:23.establishment was behind the doctor. This is totally wrong. There was a
:14:23. > :14:26.categorical statement that they were not behind him. They had been
:14:26. > :14:33.making false accusations. They have never been able to establish
:14:33. > :14:39.anything. And they had been making these claims for four or five years.
:14:39. > :14:42.People are not getting food, treatment, justice, rule of law.
:14:42. > :14:50.They're not getting protection of their life, their wealth, their
:14:50. > :14:57.business. People are not protecting their lives Foster and these are
:14:58. > :15:05.the reasons -- but it in their lives. You keep seeing that people
:15:05. > :15:09.are behind you. We have to deal with the fact that the two main
:15:09. > :15:17.parties have the most seats in the National Assembly. You made a deal.
:15:17. > :15:21.Usage you would have a one million person March. -- you said. After
:15:22. > :15:26.four is, you made a declaration that the Government. People were
:15:26. > :15:32.scratching their heads. They wondered what you had achieved. We
:15:32. > :15:36.knew that elections had to be held in Pakistan by June. Traditionally,
:15:36. > :15:42.according to the constitution, elections are called, there has to
:15:42. > :15:49.be an interim administration. What have you cheat? This is a relevant
:15:49. > :15:54.question. -- what have you cheat? There were two options. Either
:15:54. > :16:00.martial law would have common, of which I have never preferred. I am
:16:00. > :16:09.absolutely against it. I am against military intervention. I am pro-
:16:09. > :16:13.democracy, pro-German rights, pro political process. If we have taken
:16:13. > :16:19.any action, and the military would have taken over the country. We did
:16:19. > :16:23.not want this. We were not there for this purpose. Then there was
:16:23. > :16:27.the peacefu the peacefu dispute. Peaceful and democratic
:16:27. > :16:33.settlement is only possible through negotiation. We entered into that.
:16:33. > :16:38.That is the only democratic way to settle the dispute. What is the
:16:38. > :16:43.dispute you are trying to settle? What did you achieve? It does not
:16:43. > :16:48.seem like you achieve much. The elections had to be held. You had
:16:48. > :16:52.to have an interim government anyway. We received the maximum
:16:52. > :16:56.which was achievable within the limits of being peaceful and within
:16:56. > :17:06.the limits of a democratic settlement. Whatever was possible,
:17:06. > :17:14.we achieved. The constitution, article 52, it mentioned the
:17:14. > :17:20.legibility of the candidates. This was never enforced in the history
:17:20. > :17:24.of Pakistan. It was agreed upon that in coming elections, all
:17:24. > :17:28.candidates would be scrutinised. They would get clearance for 30
:17:28. > :17:33.days. They would be judged and scrutinised in the light of article
:17:33. > :17:42.62 and 63. Then they would be allowed to enter a campaign.
:17:42. > :17:47.what else did you achieve? Did you not call for the Army to be
:17:47. > :17:56.consulted on the interim administration? You called for that
:17:56. > :18:01.and it was rejected. I did. I said it initially. Insisting on this
:18:01. > :18:07.aspect would have invited the intervention of the military and
:18:07. > :18:10.would have derailed democracy. that case, but you have just said
:18:10. > :18:16.you were not in favour of the military being involved yet, in
:18:16. > :18:23.those discussions you said you wanted them. I do not want military
:18:23. > :18:27.intervention. You talk about the judiciary. A senior lawyer at the
:18:27. > :18:32.Supreme Court said that the deal in practice would have no effect
:18:33. > :18:39.because it did not change much. He said it was a face-saving exercise
:18:39. > :18:43.to allow Tahir ul-Qadri to leave Islam. You have no mandate to make
:18:43. > :18:51.these demands, he says. Every citizen has a mandate. Every
:18:51. > :18:57.citizen. The constitution does not give sovereignty to the Government.
:18:57. > :19:03.Sovereignty in Pakistan does not rest in Parliament. Sovereignty
:19:03. > :19:09.originally rests with the people of Pakistan. And they will get the
:19:09. > :19:15.chance to vote? And they will get the chance to vote? The people in
:19:15. > :19:19.Pakistan have this right. He can ask for democracy. He can claim
:19:19. > :19:24.that he can peacefully protest for rule of law. He controlled his
:19:24. > :19:31.fortune and rights. He can stand up against corruption. He can stand up
:19:31. > :19:37.for the stabilising of the process of democracy. And the voters will
:19:37. > :19:41.decide when those elections take place and we will see what happens.
:19:41. > :19:47.You have mentioned terrorism, of which, of c which, of c a plague for
:19:47. > :19:52.Pakistan, sadly. On a regular basis, we hear about people being killed
:19:52. > :19:58.in terrorist acts. You say you want to reclaim Islam from the
:19:58. > :20:02.extremists. Do you believe it is in the hands of militants? The vast
:20:02. > :20:09.majority of Muslims are peace- loving people. This is a tiny
:20:09. > :20:14.minority, even in Pakistan. have seen. You were there for four
:20:14. > :20:21.based. There was a large crowd of ladies and boys. There was no kind
:20:21. > :20:30.of violence. It did not take place. There was no violence between the
:20:30. > :20:35.nation of Pakistan. I am asking a different matter. In March 2010,
:20:35. > :20:41.you should have fat while saying violence is violence. You said
:20:41. > :20:47.there was no justification. I want to ask you now, as a Muslim cleric,
:20:47. > :20:51.do you believe that Islam is in the hands of extremists and militants?
:20:51. > :20:57.I put it to you that that is a minority bring you look at the
:20:57. > :21:03.world would community of Muslims. Unfortunately, Islam has been
:21:03. > :21:13.hijacked. This ideology. The concept of she had. The concept of
:21:13. > :21:18.Sharia law has been highlights -- hijacked. Peaceful Muslims, P
:21:18. > :21:24.peaceful people everywhere. This is not according to democracy, Sharia
:21:24. > :21:29.law. Unfortunately, I have stood up against the present system for the
:21:29. > :21:39.last five years. The parliament has been there but they have never been
:21:39. > :21:43.able to pass a national policy against terrorism. They have no end
:21:43. > :21:48.wishing to get rid of terrorism. The Government has consistently
:21:48. > :21:53.said that it is opposed to the acts of terrorism. It does condemn every
:21:53. > :21:58.act of violence that kills innocent civilians. They say that on a
:21:58. > :22:03.regular basis. I am not condoning violence but what do you say to
:22:03. > :22:08.somebody who says that suicide is outlawed in Islam through clear
:22:09. > :22:17.injunctions in the Koran, fighting and dying in self-defence is not so,
:22:17. > :22:23.he says that if it means attacking you see pilot scheme power but it
:22:23. > :22:27.is for that reason. The question is this, is a violence always animated
:22:27. > :22:36.by a Islam or is it some times for what people might on nationalist
:22:36. > :22:43.reasons? Let me explain the first part. They condemn terrorism but it
:22:43. > :22:52.is not for condemnation. It is to practise. It is to enforce. They
:22:52. > :22:58.are unable to pass this off. If you could address this briefly.
:22:59. > :23:04.Violence is the second part. And nobody is allowed to act or commit
:23:04. > :23:09.any act of violence on any person. You are only allowed to fight
:23:09. > :23:14.against the come battens on the battlefield. You can fight for your
:23:14. > :23:19.defence only on the battlefield with the combatants. You can't
:23:19. > :23:24.commit any act of violence against any non-Muslim, whether he belongs
:23:24. > :23:29.to a country that has started War One and Muslim country. The
:23:29. > :23:33.peaceful people always get the peace and security. You are never
:23:33. > :23:39.allowed to perform any act of violence. I reject that. A final
:23:39. > :23:46.brief question. Seven years you have lived in Canada. You have come
:23:46. > :23:51.back to Pakistan. Will you stay or go but cannot do? I am now here
:23:51. > :23:56.until I complete the whole mission to put democracy on the right track.