:00:15. > :00:17.Communist Party. He is one of them. It is now time for HARDtalk. If
:00:17. > :00:27.football is the beautiful game then it risks being disfigured by an
:00:27. > :00:30.ugly scar, racism. Players, fans and administrators have all pledged
:00:30. > :00:35.their determination to kick racism out of the sport, but there's
:00:35. > :00:38.plenty of evidence to suggest the anti-racist rhetoric isn't working.
:00:38. > :00:41.Lord Ouseley is a veteran equality campaigner who was appointed to a
:00:41. > :00:51.senior advisory role with the English Football Association. But
:00:51. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:17.now he's quitting, has football failed to tackle its race problem?
:01:17. > :01:23.Lord Ouseley, welcome to HARDtalk. for field
:01:23. > :01:28.for several years advising the FA's council on matters of race and the
:01:28. > :01:33.quality. You have announced that you are quitting, why? I am
:01:33. > :01:39.stepping down from the council because I automatically will lose
:01:39. > :01:44.my place by resigning from the race equality advisory group, which I
:01:44. > :01:52.was appointed to four years ago. It is a voluntary, advisory position.
:01:52. > :01:57.It was set up by the FA to advise the board on race equality matters
:01:57. > :02:03.in football. We reached a high point, a low point I should say
:02:03. > :02:08.over one year ago with some major incidents in football. Luis Suarez,
:02:08. > :02:18.John Terry's cases. During that period a lot of things happened
:02:18. > :02:21.that undermined of the processes of the FA. I felt throughout that
:02:21. > :02:29.process it compromised my own position as chair of his advisory
:02:29. > :02:37.group. At the end of the process, which we respected as a process, I
:02:37. > :02:41.asked the chairman of the FA to bring together all the football
:02:41. > :02:45.authorities and all concerned and explain what went wrong, why it
:02:45. > :02:51.went wrong, how we are going to make sure it doesn't happen again,
:02:51. > :02:57.he was unable to do that. My position in going public about what
:02:57. > :03:06.I felt happened made my position untenable. You mentioned Kick It
:03:06. > :03:10.Out, Kick It Out was founded by you 20 years ago. That is right. It has
:03:10. > :03:16.been a leading advocate of addressing race equality issues
:03:16. > :03:22.inside the professional game. the amateur game. You mentioned a
:03:22. > :03:27.John Terry, Louise Burrows, these big cases which raised questions
:03:27. > :03:33.about racism at the top of the English game, your message seems to
:03:33. > :03:39.be that you failed? 20 years ago I stopped going to professional
:03:39. > :03:46.football. It was a dangerous place to go for black people. It was
:03:46. > :03:54.violent both in terms of physical and other forms of horrendous abuse.
:03:54. > :03:59.We have all that landscape. Kick It Out wanted to educate and campaign
:03:59. > :04:04.on changes that need to be made. Legislation that has been brought
:04:04. > :04:08.in over the last 20 years has helped deal with the criminality
:04:08. > :04:12.associated with that period. I think the game is one where you can
:04:12. > :04:22.go to football and you can have an experience that is much better than
:04:22. > :04:27.it was. Women are going back to football, children, when they can
:04:27. > :04:30.afford it first dart as a black man you do not want to go and watch
:04:30. > :04:37.football and feel there is a very real possibility that some of the
:04:37. > :04:43.top players on the pitch are either racist, through and through, or at
:04:43. > :04:49.least are using abusive racist language on the field of play.
:04:49. > :04:55.can afford it. The incidents we have seen raise real questions
:04:55. > :05:00.about that. Of course. I am not suggesting there is no problem.
:05:00. > :05:04.Otherwise I would be running around with the FA and all the other
:05:04. > :05:09.authorities. The reality is, it is better than it was but there are
:05:09. > :05:15.still issues to be grappled with. We do not want to over exaggerate
:05:15. > :05:20.the extent of that compared to how it was. My concern is that at the
:05:20. > :05:27.top end of the game you set the example, if you go to professional
:05:27. > :05:37.football, you do not know what is going on on the pitch. You may
:05:37. > :05:44.think you do. If you go to local amateur football you will hear it.
:05:44. > :05:54.Schoolboys, schoolgirl football, the work that has been done his re-
:05:54. > :05:59.
:05:59. > :06:02.education. BR receiving a lot of that hard edge being taken away. --
:06:03. > :06:09.you are saying. We have to make sure these high-profile incidents
:06:09. > :06:14.are removed from the game. It sends out the wrong messages. And I
:06:14. > :06:19.understand that point and thoroughly. It leads me to this
:06:19. > :06:25.basic question, taking the John Terry affair, the former England
:06:25. > :06:30.captain and Chelsea captain, he was filmed using what is now clear is
:06:30. > :06:35.abusive language which included a racial epithet towards a black
:06:35. > :06:40.player on the field. It was only 11 months later that he was punished
:06:40. > :06:50.by the FA. In the interim he had been through a court he was
:06:50. > :06:52.
:06:52. > :06:57.acquitted by -- of racist behaviour by a court. How could it take 11
:06:57. > :07:07.months? It has happened. It was a disastrous period for all of us
:07:07. > :07:09.
:07:09. > :07:14.concern. The FA have not come clean and said during the last 11 months
:07:15. > :07:21.these things went wrong. The manager has undermined the process.
:07:21. > :07:28.Here are the senior adviser, did you tell people at the very top of
:07:28. > :07:34.the FA they needed to come clean and say we got this entirely wrong?
:07:34. > :07:42.Absolutely, yes. The situation is one where the FA's processes were
:07:42. > :07:47.undermined from day one. John Terry was able to articulate to the court
:07:47. > :07:53.that he needed plenty of time before being tried. There was
:07:53. > :08:01.another delay before the FA came in. It is the undermining of the FA
:08:01. > :08:05.process, which undermined black players themselves. Someone is
:08:05. > :08:13.innocent until proven guilty, the longer it goes on, the longer you
:08:13. > :08:18.stay quiet. We were being berated for that. The FA itself allowed its
:08:18. > :08:24.processes to be undermined, it waited 11 months before dishing out
:08:24. > :08:28.punishment. Even then they did not explain why the punishment was not
:08:28. > :08:38.what people thought it should be the stuff Jason Roberts and others
:08:38. > :08:41.
:08:41. > :08:46.have been very critical of Kick It Out. -- should be. They feel that
:08:46. > :08:50.you did not want to rock the boat. It did not want to speak out early
:08:50. > :08:54.on the John Terry and Luis Suarez case because you were too
:08:54. > :08:59.comfortable inside the system. is a point of criticism that can be
:08:59. > :09:03.made and it was made. There were several other criticisms. We had
:09:04. > :09:10.moved away from racism and where embracing all forms of
:09:10. > :09:14.discrimination. Secondly, we had inadequate resources. Thirdly, we
:09:14. > :09:20.were too close to the football authorities because we relied on
:09:20. > :09:25.their funding to exist. A whole range of criticisms. I think
:09:25. > :09:31.legitimate. We are talking about a small amount of professional
:09:31. > :09:36.footballers, but an important lot. What we did say to them, there is a
:09:36. > :09:46.process. That is a process he should not undermine. Once a charge
:09:46. > :09:47.
:09:47. > :09:54.has been brought, you cannot be making comments on that.
:09:54. > :10:03.process was being undermined by the club's. They wrote insistent there
:10:03. > :10:08.was no killed, the players had done nothing wrong. -- guilt. It was
:10:08. > :10:14.undermined from the very get go. Why did you not respond to that?
:10:14. > :10:23.That was being done all the time. We always challenged the regulatory
:10:23. > :10:29.body. We could not challenge the police. Yes, we recognise that. We
:10:29. > :10:35.were doing so all the time. To be blunt about it, when we look back
:10:35. > :10:39.professional football over the last 12 months or so, do you believe the
:10:39. > :10:44.evidence suggests the professional clubs do not take seriously
:10:44. > :10:50.allegations of racism? I think the problem is in the professional
:10:50. > :10:55.ranks players have a value. They have a contract. In most cases they
:10:55. > :10:59.have a selling on value. Most professional clubs do not take
:10:59. > :11:07.action against their players. They wait for the regulatory body to do
:11:07. > :11:13.so. Normally, an allegation is made about one of your employees, you
:11:13. > :11:20.take action. You carry out investigations and so on. Clubs
:11:20. > :11:23.usually defend their players first. If they do not bring a charge that
:11:23. > :11:29.is fine. In the incidents we are talking about, that is what
:11:29. > :11:34.happened. The process was undermined by clubs, manages
:11:34. > :11:39.defending those individuals. Making comments when there were
:11:39. > :11:49.proceedings pending. That was wrong. We did not see it as our position
:11:49. > :11:51.
:11:51. > :12:00.to undermine the process ourselves. You have talked about the
:12:00. > :12:05.importance of the top professionals and sending messages out. What we
:12:05. > :12:12.now know is that the FA concluded that John Terry's abusive words
:12:12. > :12:17.were said by way of an insult. That is a racially abusive insult to
:12:17. > :12:23.Anton Ferdinand, yet he remains at Chelsea. He is captain of Chelsea
:12:23. > :12:26.when he is not injured. He announced his retirement from
:12:26. > :12:31.England and the captaincy of England, but he is still a major
:12:31. > :12:35.figure in English professional football. The Observer newspaper in
:12:35. > :12:41.an editorial said most major institutions would sack a senior
:12:41. > :12:45.figure guilty of saying what he said. As an equality campaign and a
:12:45. > :12:50.football fan, a man who has followed the game all of your life,
:12:50. > :12:54.what do you think of the fact that John Terry is still a huge figure
:12:54. > :13:01.in English professional football today could do much that is a
:13:01. > :13:11.situation that governs football. today? The Football Association
:13:11. > :13:16.deals with these offences when they occur. All these things are dealt
:13:16. > :13:20.with by the regulatory body. The processor that follows and the
:13:20. > :13:24.results and the outcome of mean that his son play area action has
:13:24. > :13:31.been taken, the process has been followed and the sentence has been
:13:32. > :13:38.passed. -- disciplinary action. We act like nothing has happened in
:13:38. > :13:43.the past. A very delicate answer. Should he have been sacked?
:13:43. > :13:49.Football has got double standards. There is a lot of hypocrisy. There
:13:49. > :13:56.is no ethical standing amongst those who lead football, whether in
:13:56. > :14:00.the FA or the leadership of clubs. They protect their assets. In your
:14:00. > :14:10.opinion, given everything you have fought for, should he have been
:14:10. > :14:16.
:14:16. > :14:20.If you look at other players where people have gone to prison and come
:14:20. > :14:25.out, they have been given other contracts. If it is a sick game if
:14:25. > :14:34.that is the reality. It is a sick game. There is no standard
:14:34. > :14:39.procedure in that a club will take a stance to get rid of their most
:14:39. > :14:44.popular player when he has racially abused someone. We seek to get the
:14:44. > :14:48.football authorities to set that standard. It is a disgrace. What
:14:48. > :14:54.else seems to be a disgrace, and recent anonymous survey of
:14:54. > :14:59.professional footballers found that 25% or more of these professionals
:14:59. > :15:04.say that they have heard other players using abusive, racist
:15:04. > :15:10.language on the field of play. If it is as prevalent as that, I would
:15:10. > :15:20.have to ask you, for more than 25 we use of what you have done, what
:15:20. > :15:23.
:15:23. > :15:27.have at you achieved? I am questioning if you have lied over
:15:27. > :15:31.25 years. What has been achieved in our society, the programmes and
:15:31. > :15:36.investment in trying to deal with the issue of prejudice within
:15:36. > :15:40.society, because it is people who come to football. People who bring
:15:40. > :15:45.their attitudes as part of our society through the education
:15:45. > :15:48.system, who bring the prejudices and display them. Football has not
:15:48. > :15:53.created that. It provides an environment that enables people to
:15:53. > :15:56.come and express themselves in horrendous ways. The whole nature
:15:56. > :16:04.of football and its tribalism and the culture that goes on in the
:16:04. > :16:09.dressing room enables those things to happen. An external campaign can
:16:09. > :16:13.do so much. It is the people at the top to have the power and resources
:16:13. > :16:21.that can transform it and say they will not tolerate this sort of
:16:21. > :16:26.behaviour. Starting at the very top, with the world body. That is Sep
:16:26. > :16:32.Blatter. Some of the things with English football, he said that we
:16:32. > :16:39.do not want players with any game, if words spoken, should get over it,
:16:39. > :16:46.shake hands and be won. To some extent he was misunderstood. As a
:16:46. > :16:51.court statement, that is absurd. is also a mindset. It is a mindset.
:16:51. > :16:55.But he is a lot that goes on in the field of sport all the time.
:16:55. > :17:01.Someone will say something that is totally unacceptable. People will
:17:01. > :17:06.immediately say that that was out of order. I understand. We are
:17:06. > :17:11.trying to change people's attitudes. You talked about football being a
:17:11. > :17:17.mirror of society. You suggest that football cannot read, it had to
:17:17. > :17:23.accept. Football can lead. I'll tell you one way. This is where the
:17:24. > :17:28.more militant voices are being heard. When the supporters voiced
:17:28. > :17:36.their races chance, black players in particular are now saying that
:17:36. > :17:43.we will not tolerate it. An international player from Ghana who
:17:43. > :17:48.played in Italy, he led a walkout when his team was being, and he in
:17:48. > :17:53.particular, was being abused racially. Sepp Blatter did not like
:17:53. > :17:58.that. He said players should not run away. That is where footballers
:17:58. > :18:01.can show leadership. Telling crowds. There is a process that you can
:18:01. > :18:05.follow that means you should not be in a position where you have to
:18:05. > :18:10.feel that you must walk off. That process is someone is abusing you,
:18:10. > :18:14.you tell the referee. If the referee does nothing about it, you
:18:14. > :18:19.and your colleagues could insist that you're not going to stay on
:18:19. > :18:22.the field. We have got two examples. Sep Blatter made it feel quite
:18:22. > :18:27.clear that what they did was unacceptable. But they were put in
:18:27. > :18:33.a position where they had no other close. We had a game between
:18:33. > :18:39.Swansea and Norwich quite recently where a former hot Spurs player was
:18:39. > :18:44.being abused playing for Norwich. He told the referee. He stopped the
:18:44. > :18:49.game. He called for action to be taken. It was. Police got involved.
:18:50. > :18:54.The matter was dealt with. That is how it has got to be. There are
:18:54. > :18:59.processes in place if we can get people to follow what. Were to seem
:19:00. > :19:08.to be suggesting is that it is very tough to turn around institutions
:19:08. > :19:12.and mind sets. I want to move away from football. I want to talk about
:19:12. > :19:16.one of the institution that has figured in your life, because used
:19:16. > :19:22.to run what was known as the Commission for Racial Equality at a
:19:22. > :19:27.time when due relations between black and police communities were
:19:27. > :19:32.hard. I spoke to a woman whose son was brutally murdered in a racist
:19:32. > :19:35.attack 20 years ago. She said to me that she feared that some of the
:19:35. > :19:40.progress in race relations that had been made since then was being
:19:40. > :19:45.rolled back. She suggested that one of the key problems was the police
:19:45. > :19:52.were still not addressing the fact that they were institutionally
:19:52. > :19:58.racist. Would you figure? She is absolutely right. The problem we
:19:58. > :20:02.have with any institution as we try and bring about change over the
:20:02. > :20:06.past 25-30 years is that institutions recognise, such as the
:20:06. > :20:16.police, that there is a problem. They have to do something about it.
:20:16. > :20:20.The Macpherson report... Several years after the death of Stephen
:20:20. > :20:27.Lawrence and at the same time keep it out was started, it quite
:20:27. > :20:35.clearly pointed to the failure of the police to recognise that it is
:20:35. > :20:39.not about just simply someone being prejudiced. It is the institutional
:20:39. > :20:45.nature of the culture and organisation. They then shifted
:20:45. > :20:50.from 2000. There was a movement in working through the implementation.
:20:50. > :20:54.They get to a point where they become complacent. The politics
:20:54. > :21:00.changes. Mac frisson said the number of minority police officers
:21:00. > :21:05.should reflect society in London. In London, 29% is a minority. It
:21:05. > :21:15.only 10% of the police force is minority. How do you enforce
:21:15. > :21:16.
:21:16. > :21:19.change? We have got a framework. You cannot seek, as in some Chief
:21:19. > :21:27.Police officers are talking, that we are only going to change if we
:21:27. > :21:32.change the law. There is nothing that can't be changed if the will
:21:32. > :21:37.is there. But not too positive discrimination. Not at all. That is
:21:37. > :21:40.what they are saying. My position is that most of the people who are
:21:40. > :21:44.enthusiastic about joining the police and the minority communities
:21:45. > :21:50.have lost confidence. Some have left. Some are working their time
:21:50. > :21:57.out. I spoke to one of the most senior black police officers. A
:21:57. > :22:01.Muslim working in the force. The disillusionment is that we had a
:22:01. > :22:06.momentum during the early part of this century in which a lot of
:22:06. > :22:12.those people lost the enthusiasm. They can see the blockages. You can
:22:12. > :22:15.move so far and then you're not able to go forward. That
:22:15. > :22:22.disillusionment has spread out. People do not want to join the
:22:22. > :22:25.police service. And with all the retrenching that is taking place
:22:25. > :22:32.because of the difficult economic situation, it is harder to build up
:22:32. > :22:37.momentum again. But you can do it if you really want to. I think any
:22:37. > :22:41.institution that wants to do what can do what. I would say that John
:22:42. > :22:46.Stevens carried that momentum when he was the head of the match back
:22:46. > :22:49.in the early part of the century. What about the present-day? Are you
:22:49. > :22:56.saying that they do not really have the will to deliver a sweeping
:22:56. > :23:01.change that to say is still needed. It he wanted to do what, that is
:23:01. > :23:06.the only thing I can see. He is not making it happen. He is the head
:23:06. > :23:09.honcho. He and Boris Johnson have to make it happen. A final thought,
:23:09. > :23:14.we have talked football and policing. We have had in the
:23:14. > :23:18.context in the struggle of racial equality. We talked about the 20
:23:18. > :23:23.years fight that you have waged. It sounds as though you fear that some
:23:23. > :23:31.of the progress made in the earlier days is now actually being rolled
:23:31. > :23:36.back. Is that how you feel? Inevitably, if you in these
:23:36. > :23:44.situations, you are going backwards. There is no doubt society has got a
:23:44. > :23:48.greater level of integration and people who feel they belong here. I
:23:48. > :23:53.think in terms of race relations, we often move one step forward and
:23:53. > :23:56.a couple back. We have got to take the positives we have achieved and
:23:56. > :24:01.build on those. We need to recognise there is still so far to
:24:01. > :24:04.go. If there is rolling back. People get to the level where they
:24:04. > :24:11.become complacent. We have done that. We have got a programme and
:24:11. > :24:16.policies. They hope those processes work. But they do not necessarily.