0:00:06 > 0:00:11Now on BBC News, it is HARDtalk.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14My guest today, Renzo Piano, is the architect of that building.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16The London Shard.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19He is one of the world's most accomplished architects.
0:00:19 > 0:00:23He is used to dividing opinion.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26He designed Paris's poverty centre.
0:00:26 > 0:00:34He has taken on high-profile developments all over the world.
0:00:34 > 0:00:41His latest creation is already loved, but it is also loathed.
0:00:41 > 0:00:42One critic described it as a monument to wealth and power,
0:00:45 > 0:00:48run way out of control.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50What does it say about us and why build so big?
0:01:18 > 0:01:23Renzo Piano, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25This building is tall.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28It is now the tallest in the European Union.
0:01:28 > 0:01:29Why?
0:01:29 > 0:01:32What is the statement by building it so tall?
0:01:32 > 0:01:36I don't really remember.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40The reason why it is the tallest, I don't remember.
0:01:40 > 0:01:41I don't really care.
0:01:41 > 0:01:51It was actually taller in the beginning.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54But then they said that you cannot because
0:01:54 > 0:01:55it would interfere with the flight paths.
0:01:56 > 0:01:56We stopped.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59The building is now 310 metres.
0:01:59 > 0:02:01We still decided to go up to 400.
0:02:01 > 0:02:02It was almost not finished.
0:02:02 > 0:02:06People believe it is not finished.
0:02:06 > 0:02:13Simply desiring to go higher, but not going higher.
0:02:13 > 0:02:20This idea that a building does not finish.
0:02:20 > 0:02:27It stands like that.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30The last piece of glass goes like that.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32If you need them to go, they can go up.
0:02:32 > 0:02:34This is part of the game.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37We did not try to make the tallest building in Europe.
0:02:37 > 0:02:38It just happened by chance?
0:02:38 > 0:02:39It happened by chance.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42Also because if you want to put all of those functions,
0:02:42 > 0:02:43because this building has
0:02:44 > 0:02:46at least six or seven different functions.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50It is like a little vertical city.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52It is like a village.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59-- You have transportation, public transportation -
0:02:59 > 0:03:01you come up and you have trains and buses.
0:03:01 > 0:03:02You have shops.
0:03:02 > 0:03:03You have offices.
0:03:03 > 0:03:04You have a public space.
0:03:04 > 0:03:12You have a hotel.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14And then we have the viewing platform.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17It is a long time since you first drew the plans for it.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20When you are designing something and thinking about what it must look
0:03:21 > 0:03:24like, you are now in a situation for the past few months
0:03:24 > 0:03:26where it is approaching completeness, how do
0:03:26 > 0:03:36you feel about it?
0:03:36 > 0:03:39As an architect, if you make something wrong it is wrong forever.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41If you are a musician, you make music.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43You understand that something is wrong.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45What you do is the real thing.
0:03:45 > 0:03:50Then you do it again.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53When you make a sculpture, what is in front of you
0:03:53 > 0:04:00is the sculpture.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03If you are making architecture, you do not judge the real thing.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05You judge the drawing of the real thing.
0:04:05 > 0:04:05The model.
0:04:06 > 0:04:07The rendering.
0:04:07 > 0:04:08You have to use your imagination.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11You need to figure out what it will be in reality.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14That would suggest that if there is something wrong with it,
0:04:15 > 0:04:16you cannot fix it.
0:04:16 > 0:04:16Exactly.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20That's the tragedy.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23That's the reason why, as an architect, it is
0:04:23 > 0:04:24a very dangerous job.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27Dangerous for you, but even more dangerous for other people.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29If you do something wrong, it is forever.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31What did you think when you saw it?
0:04:31 > 0:04:32I think it is fine.
0:04:33 > 0:04:38I stopped crossing my fingers a few months ago.
0:04:38 > 0:04:45You do everything you can to make it right.
0:04:45 > 0:04:51But the truth is that you understand if it is right or wrong only then.
0:04:51 > 0:04:52When it's built.
0:04:52 > 0:04:54I'll tell you if I think it is right.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58But I did not know exactly.
0:04:59 > 0:05:04I wasn't sure.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08To listen to you, you seem to think it might not perhaps be good enough?
0:05:08 > 0:05:09What is wrong with it?
0:05:09 > 0:05:14In school, I grew up with the idea that other people
0:05:14 > 0:05:16are always better than you.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20I grew up with the idea that what you do is maybe fine.
0:05:20 > 0:05:20Surprisingly fine.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23But probably not good enough.
0:05:23 > 0:05:28So you grow up thinking that other people are better than you.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31Even now, 75, I still feel that every time I do something right,
0:05:31 > 0:05:41it is a miracle.
0:05:41 > 0:05:42It is something surprising.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46I do not live in the sensation that everything I do is right.
0:05:46 > 0:05:47It is always a great surprise.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50It would be quite hard to live in that.
0:05:50 > 0:06:00Not least because of some of the comments made.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Particularly one of the criticisms that it is out of proportion.
0:06:04 > 0:06:11Here you are outside the Tower Bridge and St Paul's.
0:06:11 > 0:06:12And you have this massive glass shard.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16The chairman of the National Trust said that this tower is anarchy.
0:06:16 > 0:06:21It conforms to no planning policy.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25It seems to have lost its way from Dubai to Canary Wharf.
0:06:25 > 0:06:26I know that criticism.
0:06:26 > 0:06:33I think it is wrong.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35One of the most important things for an architect
0:06:35 > 0:06:37because we are making
0:06:37 > 0:06:39a dangerous job is to listen to people.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42It is one of the most important things of the work.
0:06:42 > 0:06:43It is easiest to learn.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46It does not mean you listen and then you are obedient.
0:06:46 > 0:06:47You listen to understand.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51One thing you do when you do this kind of building is to listen
0:06:51 > 0:06:52to people and accept criticism.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55For this job, we went through a public inquiry.
0:06:55 > 0:07:05It lasted almost two years.
0:07:05 > 0:07:11A public inquiry is not something unusual in this country.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13You do it for big and complicated things.
0:07:13 > 0:07:18They decided to do this.
0:07:18 > 0:07:19The arguments were brought out.
0:07:19 > 0:07:27The argument was whether it was right or wrong.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30Another criticism levelled against it is that in a sense
0:07:30 > 0:07:32it is a metaphor for wealth and power.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36An art critic says it is a monument to wealth and power runaway
0:07:36 > 0:07:36out of control.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40A flashing warning sign of disease.
0:07:40 > 0:07:45Yeah, you know, I think of different things.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49On this one, I think there is a lot of distortion on this one.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53When you go through this building and you realise that what is open
0:07:53 > 0:07:56to the viewing platform will be visited by 5,000 people per day.
0:07:56 > 0:08:04The office will be used by something like 5,000 people per day.
0:08:04 > 0:08:05They are not rich people.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08You have to pay £25.
0:08:08 > 0:08:20£25 is too much.
0:08:20 > 0:08:21In this town, everything costs £25.
0:08:22 > 0:08:23I told them it was too much.
0:08:23 > 0:08:24I tried.
0:08:24 > 0:08:25What did they say?
0:08:25 > 0:08:29Everybody says that in this town, everything costs at least £25.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32But it doesn't.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36I told my colleague, I was with my wife to go around
0:08:36 > 0:08:46to all of those little shows on the bottom.
0:08:46 > 0:08:52They all cost £25-30.
0:08:52 > 0:08:53The London Eye costs £28-30.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56It is too expensive.
0:08:56 > 0:08:57It is too expensive.
0:08:57 > 0:08:58It is too expensive.
0:08:58 > 0:09:05It is too expensive.
0:09:05 > 0:09:09I agree because one of the aims of this building is to give it
0:09:09 > 0:09:10to the people.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12And to be public.
0:09:12 > 0:09:14And for some, costing £25 is too much.
0:09:14 > 0:09:22That is for sure.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25But argument is that anyawy, that this is the normal price.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28If you go to New York, if you go to the top
0:09:28 > 0:09:31of the Empire State Building, you spend more than that.
0:09:31 > 0:09:37One of the things discussed is that whether it is a metaphor
0:09:37 > 0:09:39to wealth and power, rather than to the people.
0:09:39 > 0:09:40I think it is wrong.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43We got something a bit too moralistic.
0:09:43 > 0:09:52If you look more carefully, you will find that this building
0:09:52 > 0:09:55will be used every day by ten thousand people at least.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57How much of the building has been let out?
0:09:57 > 0:09:59I think it is only the restaurant...
0:09:59 > 0:10:01The hotel?
0:10:01 > 0:10:08The hotel.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10This part, the others, they are still discussing.
0:10:10 > 0:10:17But they are not let because they do not find a tenant.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20They are not let because they have their own policy.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23The policy of those people being that they wait for the right
0:10:23 > 0:10:25moment to rent and all that.
0:10:25 > 0:10:30They want it to be empty?
0:10:30 > 0:10:32Is that what you're saying?
0:10:32 > 0:10:34Yes.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37Up until the building being finished.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40The building will be finished in about six months.
0:10:40 > 0:10:41The hotel will open in June.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44The official public opening of this building was last summer.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46We have not heard anything about the occupants.
0:10:46 > 0:10:47It is like a city.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51You do not open a building in a single day.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55You bring energy across the river.
0:10:55 > 0:10:57And then, then you make public transportation.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Then you make a vertical city.
0:10:59 > 0:11:08It is not one of those buildings that closes in the evening.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10And you know, I think that all of this discussion
0:11:10 > 0:11:12about the fact that this building
0:11:12 > 0:11:15is a kind of monument to money is just a distortion.
0:11:15 > 0:11:15Because...
0:11:16 > 0:11:20It will not be proven by events, you say?
0:11:20 > 0:11:21Yes, for sure.
0:11:21 > 0:11:28I am very pragmatic.
0:11:28 > 0:11:32And I am very keen about that, because at my age, I grew up knowing
0:11:32 > 0:11:35that by making architecture, you have to be a good builder.
0:11:35 > 0:11:39Your father was a builder.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43You have to be a poet, but you have to be militant.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46You have to be a social worker.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49You have to have this kind of ethical dimension.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52The argument is very simple.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55This building will be lived daily by 10,000 people per day.
0:11:55 > 0:11:56Some will be rich.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59But no more than 50 or 60 people.
0:11:59 > 0:12:01You have made so many different types of buildings
0:12:01 > 0:12:07all around the world.
0:12:07 > 0:12:09You look at your work, whether it's art galleries,
0:12:09 > 0:12:13museums in the United States,
0:12:13 > 0:12:15churches in Europe, an airport terminal in Japan...
0:12:15 > 0:12:17You look at them and they are all unique.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20There is no singular or something that would stand out
0:12:20 > 0:12:23as a Renzo Piano style of architecture.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27And I wonder if when you look at all of those, what is most rewarding?
0:12:28 > 0:12:33Is it that you see, from what you said before it is not
0:12:33 > 0:12:39the tallest building, not the most striking...
0:12:39 > 0:12:43Yeah, I think that what is rewarding to me is to be part of the human
0:12:43 > 0:12:52adventure of architecture.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54You know, the reason why - why - why I...
0:12:54 > 0:12:56I am very diffident towards style,
0:12:56 > 0:12:59not just for architecture, but for everybody, is a kind
0:12:59 > 0:12:59of golden cage.
0:13:00 > 0:13:01You get trapped in the style.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03And then you have to repeat it.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06What is great about architecture or a job like journalism
0:13:06 > 0:13:18or movie-making is the adventure.
0:13:18 > 0:13:30The sense of adventure.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34The architect is like a kind of like a Robinson Crusoe.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37Robinson Crusoe landed in a new island every time and made
0:13:37 > 0:13:37a new adventure.
0:13:38 > 0:13:39That is exactly what happens.
0:13:39 > 0:13:40If you are trapped in your own style, you have to repeat it.
0:13:40 > 0:13:46Is it changing people's lives?
0:13:46 > 0:13:50If you ask me about language and style, there is a lot of this
0:13:50 > 0:13:55language of coherence coming from...
0:13:55 > 0:14:04Much of that comes from my childhood.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07I was born in Genoa, in a city of sea and water,
0:14:07 > 0:14:10where everything flies.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12It is a fantastic city.
0:14:12 > 0:14:15Stone and water.
0:14:15 > 0:14:21Stone in the historical centre, water in the harbour.
0:14:21 > 0:14:27Everything floats, everything flies, from the ships to the cranes,
0:14:27 > 0:14:32they do not touch ground, the ships are buoyed.
0:14:32 > 0:14:36If you look at my age for what I can call,
0:14:36 > 0:14:46not style, but coherence, language, and...
0:14:46 > 0:14:50And yet here we are in a building that is very much of a certain
0:14:50 > 0:14:53fashion, the glass.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55Prince Charles has said, I'm afraid that the building tends
0:14:55 > 0:14:58very quickly to become unfashionable, tired,
0:14:58 > 0:15:05outdated, no longer contemporary.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08It is ripe for demolition and replacement.
0:15:08 > 0:15:14He also refers to energy guzzling glass boxes.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17I remember the world of the judge.
0:15:17 > 0:15:25They made the judgement of the public inquiry.
0:15:25 > 0:15:33The judge after 18 months of discussion, he said,
0:15:33 > 0:15:38even St Paul's at the time was modern.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41And it was controversial.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43If it is good, it is good.
0:15:43 > 0:15:48Every classic has been at a certain moment modern and contemporary.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51Will this become a classic like St Paul's Cathedral?
0:15:51 > 0:15:52No idea.
0:15:52 > 0:15:57I'd be arrogant to say so.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01I am saying for me the problem is not to be classical or to be
0:16:01 > 0:16:05modern, it is to be good or to be bad.
0:16:05 > 0:16:11If you are good, there is nothing wrong.
0:16:11 > 0:16:17European cities have layers of different moments,
0:16:17 > 0:16:24celebrating and representing their time.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27The problem is whether you are good or not.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31I do not trust Prince Charles's judgement.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35I think this building will be great for centuries.
0:16:35 > 0:16:37It's not arrogant.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40It is actually very light, it is like a crystal presence,
0:16:40 > 0:16:43it is not killing anything.
0:16:43 > 0:16:47It is very gentle.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50So you do not trust his judgement on this building, do
0:16:50 > 0:16:55you trust his judgement on other architecture?
0:16:55 > 0:17:00He's quite right on many points by criticising modern architecture...
0:17:00 > 0:17:01We have to be honest.
0:17:01 > 0:17:07It's created disasters in the past.
0:17:07 > 0:17:15But you cannot turn your back...
0:17:15 > 0:17:21I prefer not to talk too much about that.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24I know that in everybody's judgement, there is always something
0:17:24 > 0:17:27good to take, but for me, but there is one thing important,
0:17:27 > 0:17:36you have to be yourself.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39If you live in a time that is the 21st century,
0:17:39 > 0:17:41you have to belong to it.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43What is quite interesting is that you are talking
0:17:43 > 0:17:45about vertical cities.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48In a way, that was a fashion at a certain time, streets
0:17:48 > 0:17:49in the sky.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52Now there is a move away from high-rises because people
0:17:52 > 0:17:56do not want to live on top of each other.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59You can create denser, more efficient, better living space
0:17:59 > 0:18:04with old-fashioned terraces.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06This is wrong.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08I am sorry.
0:18:08 > 0:18:10It is totally wrong.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12Today, the 21st century, the most important discovery
0:18:12 > 0:18:18is the fragility of earth.
0:18:18 > 0:18:21The most unsustainable thing that you can think of are the periphery,
0:18:21 > 0:18:28the sprawl of little cottages and houses.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30Forget it.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32It is impossible.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34It is not sustainable in any sense.
0:18:34 > 0:18:40It's just a romantic idea.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43So in energy terms, a glass building like this is better?
0:18:43 > 0:18:47It spends 10 times less.
0:18:47 > 0:18:51It is better than little villas.
0:18:51 > 0:18:55This building, with the system we use for keeping the things out
0:18:55 > 0:19:03is incredibly efficient...
0:19:04 > 0:19:07Even if you are tackling the problems of the banlieue,
0:19:07 > 0:19:11Paris suburbs, you would suggest that you put these high-rises,
0:19:11 > 0:19:14you would create cities on the peripheries?
0:19:14 > 0:19:21I am not saying so.
0:19:21 > 0:19:28The solution of the cities is not to make a new periphery.
0:19:28 > 0:19:34It is not solved by making new periphery and creating new tragedy.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38The solution is not expansion by explosion.
0:19:38 > 0:19:43The solution is expansion by implosion.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45The opposite.
0:19:45 > 0:19:50It is the only sustainable road.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54Especially in a city like London.
0:19:54 > 0:20:03It is to grow from inside, building on what we call brownfield.
0:20:03 > 0:20:08In brownfield, in London, lots of brownfields.
0:20:08 > 0:20:17Even in Berlin, I built on brownfield.
0:20:17 > 0:20:28It was the little space left between the East and West.
0:20:28 > 0:20:34In cities, dense like Barcelona...
0:20:34 > 0:20:39There is always the possibility to grow.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41It doesn't mean that I preach the value of putting
0:20:41 > 0:20:47tall buildings everywhere.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50I say that sometimes.
0:20:50 > 0:20:56A building like this one, it makes sense to go up and show...
0:20:56 > 0:21:05Can I ask you finally about how you judge the success of a building?
0:21:05 > 0:21:09Because I happened to recognise you outside out on the street.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13You were spying on people, listening to hear what they were
0:21:13 > 0:21:20saying about it?
0:21:20 > 0:21:25Is that how you judge the success?
0:21:25 > 0:21:32Not because I am a perverse person, but I learnt that a long time ago
0:21:32 > 0:21:38after I did the Pompidou Centre in Paris, Roberto Rossellini,
0:21:38 > 0:21:42he was making a movie.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45He was watching me.
0:21:45 > 0:21:49He said, you should not look at the building,
0:21:49 > 0:21:57you should see the face of people looking at the building.
0:21:57 > 0:22:04You have to look at the mirror of the building on the face of people.
0:22:04 > 0:22:11Since then, I did the same thing.
0:22:11 > 0:22:16I do it in the most natural way I can.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19I listen and I watch people.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22What do you see?
0:22:22 > 0:22:25Surprise, wonder.
0:22:25 > 0:22:30Not fear.
0:22:30 > 0:22:36Many say, oh, this is the way, we are here.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39They use the building as a new reference in this city.
0:22:39 > 0:22:44They find their way by it.
0:22:44 > 0:22:56Sometimes they argue over whether it is finished.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58The problem is very simple.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01I do not like to surprise people.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05I don't like to be controversial.
0:23:05 > 0:23:13But if you are an architect, and you don't waste your time
0:23:13 > 0:23:15with stupid things, you find yourself celebrating shifts
0:23:15 > 0:23:17in the society.
0:23:17 > 0:23:25In some way, that is what happened.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29A long time ago, and we were young bad boys, we got to celebrate a big
0:23:29 > 0:23:33shift in society.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35With the Pompidou Centre.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37It changed the way that people thought of you.
0:23:37 > 0:23:38Caused a big fuss.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40Someone had to do the dirty job.
0:23:40 > 0:23:46We need a place creating curiosity and welcome.
0:23:46 > 0:23:52In between, I had done many other things like that, in Chicago.
0:23:53 > 0:24:01Here, it is the same thing.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05As an architect, you don't change the world, but celebrate the change.
0:24:05 > 0:24:11Renzo Piano, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.