:00:03. > :00:13.to perverti to pervertiurse of justice. That is the latest news. Now on BBC
:00:13. > :00:13.
:00:13. > :00:16.My guest today is renowned British plastic surgeon, Dr Mohammad Jawad,
:00:16. > :00:21.who has helped reconstruct the faces of women disfigured by acid
:00:21. > :00:25.attacks. He featured in an Oscar- winning documentary about his
:00:25. > :00:27.humanitarian work in his native Pakistan. His high public profile
:00:27. > :00:34.has helped raise awareness about the life-destroying nature of acid
:00:34. > :00:37.attacks in Pakistan and elsewhere in Asia. But can it bring about
:00:37. > :00:47.real change and action to help bring down the level of such
:00:47. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:15.Dr Mohammad Jawad, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You think of
:01:15. > :01:20.plastic surgery and you think of cosmetic surgery, does the glamour
:01:20. > :01:27.end of your business worry you? is a misnomer, cosmetic is part of
:01:27. > :01:37.plastic surgery. In training we go through all phases of plastic and
:01:37. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:49.reconstructive training. That includes the aesthetic part, some
:01:49. > :01:52.people focus on that, but it is all the same process. You said in
:01:52. > :01:55.February I want to restore the glory of plastic surgeons, boob
:01:55. > :02:05.jobs, breast jobs have overshadowed our work restoring patients who are
:02:05. > :02:10.
:02:10. > :02:18.recovering from cancer... It sounds like you are a bit worried. Plastic
:02:18. > :02:23.surgery evolved during wartime injuries. Burns and burns
:02:23. > :02:33.reconstruction. Air force pilots were there for many years in
:02:33. > :02:37.
:02:37. > :02:39.reconstruction. It started with the burns, war injuries and deformities,
:02:40. > :02:49.to reconstruct and rehabilitate these people to become effective
:02:50. > :02:51.
:02:51. > :03:01.members of society. The question is, how comfortable do you feel about
:03:01. > :03:02.
:03:02. > :03:05.the two ends of your work? understand you do very important
:03:05. > :03:15.reconstructive work, but you do carry out operations on healthy
:03:15. > :03:17.
:03:17. > :03:22.people for cosmetic reasons. Doctors are there to make people
:03:22. > :03:28.better, not just for vanity reasons. How do you feel about it? They are
:03:28. > :03:33.not contradictory to each other. This person, who is relatively not
:03:33. > :03:39.so happy in terms of reconstruction, you restore that. Somebody looking
:03:39. > :03:45.for cosmetic, is also not happy for that reason. We restore that part
:03:45. > :03:49.of the body. You see no contradiction. Do you see a paradox
:03:49. > :03:53.that you do operations to augment some women's breasts, but you also
:03:53. > :03:56.deal with women who are the victims of acid attacks, the result of some
:03:56. > :04:06.kind of sexual harassment, if a woman has spurned a man's unwanted
:04:06. > :04:17.
:04:17. > :04:21.advances... I do not want to be judgmental about it. My job as a
:04:21. > :04:30.plastic surgeon, we do not seek or like any physical deformity on any
:04:30. > :04:40.individual. Whether that is a state of mind, I am not going to go into
:04:40. > :04:42.
:04:42. > :04:48.what causes that, but I have a care of duty. You do not see the paradox
:04:48. > :04:53.that I set out for you? Not really. I know they are different. I do not
:04:53. > :04:58.think they are related directly. You started your medical training
:04:58. > :05:03.in Karachi, where you're from. Then you moved to the Republic of
:05:03. > :05:06.Ireland for further training and then you came to the UK. You have
:05:06. > :05:16.been going back to Pakistan to perform humanitarian operations,
:05:16. > :05:17.
:05:17. > :05:21.such as women who have been disfigured by acid attacks. You
:05:21. > :05:28.have said you feel like to have a moral obligation to do so, what do
:05:28. > :05:32.you mean? Education in Pakistan is actually free. I graduated from
:05:32. > :05:40.college, you may not believe that I ended up paying for my whole
:05:40. > :05:50.graduation. �80. That was a poor country, taxpayer money to educate
:05:50. > :05:58.doctors, engineers, lawyers... All university graduates completely
:05:58. > :06:05.subsidised. What we ended up doing, because there were not many
:06:05. > :06:10.prospects, we got the first flight out and came out of the country. We
:06:10. > :06:13.did not look back. Frankly speaking, that is what happened. There were a
:06:13. > :06:21.lot of opportunities for us to return, but then we got involved
:06:22. > :06:26.training, family issues... You put your personal ambitions ahead of
:06:26. > :06:28.helping your country. Other doctors like you who leave countries in the
:06:28. > :06:37.developing world where they have benefited from the education but
:06:37. > :06:43.want the life in the West... We did not realise. You look back and
:06:43. > :06:48.reflect, hang on, what has been happening? It was not clear to you
:06:48. > :06:58.at an earlier stage? It was an opportunity to get out. There was
:06:58. > :07:01.
:07:01. > :07:04.never a guilt factor. You are part of what is known as the brain drain.
:07:04. > :07:11.Doctors, other medical personnel from Asia, Africa, working in
:07:11. > :07:15.Western nations. A lot of people have said this is not acceptable.
:07:15. > :07:19.Let me ask you this, on a personal level you say you feel you have a
:07:19. > :07:24.moral obligation to give something back to the country who trained you.
:07:24. > :07:34.Should there not be something more formal than that? Should doctors be
:07:34. > :07:34.
:07:34. > :07:43.forced to in some way? Should there be some compensation? In 2005 we
:07:43. > :07:53.had the Kashmir earthquake. I tell you, at that time a doctor from the
:07:53. > :08:02.
:08:02. > :08:07.West, Pakistani originally... 9999 and that point, I think the feeling
:08:07. > :08:14.became very acute that we were living in a controlled situation in
:08:14. > :08:24.the West. This actually brought us up. No moral or legal
:08:24. > :08:33.responsibility. It was a very sticky point for me. I need to
:08:33. > :08:35.start thinking in terms of going back. But it is voluntary.
:08:35. > :08:41.Developing countries are effectively paying to train staff
:08:41. > :08:44.to support the whole services of developed countries. That is true.
:08:44. > :08:47.Rather than having a voluntary activity such as yours, should
:08:47. > :08:54.there be something more formal? Compensation from doctors like you
:08:54. > :08:59.who have left the country? I agree. We are working on that.
:08:59. > :09:05.Collectively we could have a comprehensive way of giving back.
:09:05. > :09:15.It will come into legal terminology. Cash paying back to the society
:09:15. > :09:19.
:09:19. > :09:22.that gave us... It is an investment of my own poor society into me.
:09:22. > :09:25.What will be the dividend for the society? It is a very important
:09:25. > :09:29.question. The Acid Survivors Foundation says there are 150 cases
:09:29. > :09:36.of women who have been attacked. That does not just go on in
:09:36. > :09:40.Pakistan, but in South East Asia, Latin America, even here in the UK.
:09:40. > :09:50.You were involved in a documentary last year looking at these two
:09:50. > :09:53.
:09:53. > :09:58.young women. We see you visibly moved when you are talking to them
:09:58. > :10:02.and treating them. What did you find so moving about their cases?
:10:02. > :10:10.have been going to Pakistan every few months. I have being involved
:10:10. > :10:16.in different parts of the surgery. I know we have problems. It is not
:10:16. > :10:24.a perfect society. But this aspect of my society I was not aware of.
:10:24. > :10:33.You did not know about acid attacks? I did not. Honest to God.
:10:33. > :10:43.When did you find out? I got involved looking after Katie Piper.
:10:43. > :10:43.
:10:43. > :10:51.Her jealous ex-boyfriend... Yes, March 2008. This was the worst seen
:10:51. > :10:57.I had come across. You did not know until you had treated Katie Piper
:10:57. > :11:06.in 2008 that young people in Pakistan were being attacked? Your
:11:06. > :11:13.wife is a consultant gynaecologist. Even she did not know? We never
:11:13. > :11:18.came across it. This was never an issue. It was only a few months
:11:18. > :11:21.later I was talking to one of my old bosses... Somebody likes you,
:11:21. > :11:31.who maintains their links to Pakistan, even you were not aware
:11:31. > :11:38.
:11:38. > :11:48.that this kind of thing went on? I only learned about it in the latter
:11:48. > :11:50.
:11:50. > :11:59.part of 2008. She had heard about your work. It was brushed under the
:11:59. > :12:09.carpet? She was bringing awareness. But yes, it is something under the
:12:09. > :12:10.
:12:10. > :12:16.carpet. In the film, Saving Face, a woman, 39 years of age, attacked by
:12:16. > :12:19.her in-laws. Terribly disfigured. She could not find any way to
:12:19. > :12:29.support herself, she had to go back and live with the people who
:12:29. > :12:36.carried out the horrible attack on her. Yes, that is a tragedy. I was
:12:36. > :12:46.not surprised, I was shocked. I am aware of certain aspects of society,
:12:46. > :12:52.
:12:52. > :12:56.that society can be so apathetic to such people I was not aware. What
:12:56. > :13:02.was it like when you saw someone in that situation? A young, attractive
:13:02. > :13:08.woman who was so horribly disfigured? I'm just beginning to
:13:08. > :13:18.learn this aspect of society to be honest. I was never aware of it.
:13:18. > :13:21.Why men do it. I just learned the different causes, believe me.
:13:21. > :13:25.is it like when you yourself, you're a father of two daughters.
:13:25. > :13:35.When you see these young women in this situation, as a father, as a
:13:35. > :13:40.
:13:40. > :13:47.doctor? It breaks my heart. It breaks my heart that men can be so
:13:47. > :13:57.low to act... If you are not listening to me, I have to deface
:13:57. > :14:14.
:14:14. > :14:18.her. To achieve what I cannot These women are psychologically
:14:18. > :14:22.scarred. If your physicality is destroyed, it is very difficult to
:14:22. > :14:25.heal. Most people see beauty is skin deep but... If you take the
:14:25. > :14:32.face away, it is the portal of communication. And they're young
:14:32. > :14:36.women. We have women like this and they are almost the walking dead.
:14:36. > :14:46.I'm trying to... I was not trying to be angry, I was trying to
:14:46. > :14:46.
:14:46. > :14:51.compartmentalise. I thought, "Listen, whatever's happened has
:14:51. > :14:54.happened. What can I do to physically restore this damage?"
:14:54. > :15:04.Conscientiously, I had to concentrate on what I could do best
:15:04. > :15:08.and let other people look into the causes. I was going to ask you this.
:15:08. > :15:13.You've said, all I can do is use my skills to patch people up and give
:15:13. > :15:16.them a better face. Is that really all you can do? Well, I managed to
:15:17. > :15:22.speak with them because I can speak their language and I was able to
:15:22. > :15:28.understand and listen to them. I was involved with Katie, getting
:15:28. > :15:35.her to tell her story. That was therapeutic for her. Similarly,
:15:35. > :15:45.when we got involved with the patients, we could listen. They can
:15:45. > :15:46.
:15:46. > :15:49.be brave, become real heroes. These ladies who have come out and tell
:15:49. > :15:53.their stories, maybe they can save more lives. By coming out and
:15:53. > :15:56.speaking and saying what? That this is what men have been doing. We
:15:56. > :15:59.have been protecting men in our society unnecessarily. Men are the
:15:59. > :16:07.weaker sex. We are not looking after women. Again, it is against
:16:08. > :16:11.religion. Let me say to you, for me, the reason was shocking. My
:16:11. > :16:15.religion Islam came to liberate women 1,400 years ago. That is my
:16:15. > :16:22.understanding. And has given the first equal rights to women. In my
:16:22. > :16:29.religion, the mother is the primary source. So you are supposed to
:16:29. > :16:36.protect your women - your wife, your daughter, your women. And
:16:36. > :16:42.where this behaviour comes from, I could not figure it out. Because I
:16:42. > :16:45.said, "You are a deeply religious country. Why...?" You say that you
:16:45. > :16:49.patch people up but you actually have a very high public profile.
:16:49. > :16:54.You are the subject of this Oscar award-winning documentary. You are
:16:54. > :16:56.here speaking on television. You can be more than a doctor. You can
:16:56. > :17:00.raise awareness of this terrible disaster that befalls women not
:17:00. > :17:05.only in Pakistan but around the world. You can go beyond being a
:17:05. > :17:08.doctor. If you look at Malala Yousafzai, she is not just a
:17:08. > :17:12.student anymore, she is an activist and campaigner for girls' education
:17:12. > :17:16.around the world. Will you just remain a plastic surgeon and
:17:16. > :17:20.perform these operations or will you go further and try to say, "I
:17:20. > :17:23.am actually going to start a campaign to bring in the right laws,
:17:23. > :17:31.make sure they are implemented so that this kind of violence against
:17:31. > :17:41.women is no longer tolerated for whatever reason in our society"?
:17:41. > :17:46.will share with you... I know you're trying to challenge me, to
:17:46. > :17:50.get into public life. We managed to change the law for the first time.
:17:50. > :17:54.You will be pleased to know that the man who threw the acid received
:17:54. > :18:00.two life sentences. We have set the ball rolling in that part of the
:18:00. > :18:03.world. A new law that sentences people who do this in Pakistan to
:18:03. > :18:07.many years in prison. Yes. We are getting involved in India as well.
:18:07. > :18:11.We are learning from it. Of course, this campaign is much bigger than
:18:11. > :18:14.the individual. It's a bigger... This is a women's issue, an
:18:14. > :18:20.opportunity issue, giving them empowerment and raising their
:18:20. > :18:27.profile. And I, as a simple person, I am trying the best I can to use
:18:27. > :18:33.whatever I have to actually help these women. You say that this is a
:18:33. > :18:36.women's issue. And indeed you have one woman Pakistani MP who helped
:18:36. > :18:41.get that legislation passed which gives heavier prison sentences to
:18:41. > :18:45.acid attackers but she says there is still a lack of political will.
:18:45. > :18:50.She says it's difficult to get the police to co-operate with the women
:18:50. > :18:57.because they are under no pressure to do so. We see similar trends of
:18:57. > :19:01.gender-based violence in India. There are not enough women in the
:19:01. > :19:06.police forces and so on. So, it's not just the women you have to get
:19:06. > :19:10.to speak out. You have got to talk to the men as well. Are you talking
:19:10. > :19:14.to those men in power as a man yourself? I am. And you will be
:19:14. > :19:18.pleased to know that we are starting a new campaign. That
:19:18. > :19:23.country is very influenced by the mullahs and the imams. We are
:19:23. > :19:27.educating those people in the countryside. There are set verses
:19:27. > :19:32.in the Koran about the role of women and the respect that must be
:19:32. > :19:38.given to women in society. And we are encouraging them to spread that.
:19:38. > :19:47.They must be educated. These men are not very well educated in that
:19:47. > :19:55.part of the world. 44% of children in Pakistan have stunted growth. We
:19:55. > :19:58.have a problem. So you see poverty, a lack of literacy... And then we
:19:58. > :20:02.have the negative influence of these religious figures as well.
:20:02. > :20:05.And we try to convince them that they can actually become a force of
:20:06. > :20:12.good. Do you think they are listening? How do you do this? Do
:20:12. > :20:16.you travel around these rural areas? I don't but we have people
:20:16. > :20:22.who have the relationship and they are a good way to approach and
:20:22. > :20:29.spread the word. It is like the mindset needs to be changed, the
:20:29. > :20:33.mindset that has been there for years. It won't change over night.
:20:33. > :20:36.It is a difficult job. It is a difficult job to transform a
:20:36. > :20:41.society. Look, evolution... I benefit from living in an open
:20:41. > :20:44.society in Britain and the West. And we fought for the rights. The
:20:44. > :20:54.men encourage women and the women encourage the men and democracy
:20:54. > :20:57.prospers. We are in a different type of world. We're fighting,
:20:57. > :21:07.there's conflict. The damaging part in my opinion in Pakistan's history
:21:07. > :21:10.
:21:10. > :21:15.is when it legally, reduced the rights of the woman. The former
:21:15. > :21:25.president? In 1979, 1980. I can't remember exactly. The whole
:21:25. > :21:27.
:21:27. > :21:33.generation started treating women as second class. That was never the
:21:33. > :21:36.case before. That is the root cause of the problem that gives rise to
:21:36. > :21:39.this kind of violence? I personally think it went unchecked because
:21:39. > :21:44.women became second class. I mean, somebody's son is killed in front
:21:44. > :21:47.of a lady, her witness will not be accepted in the court of law.
:21:47. > :21:51.how do you... You have said there are people who go to the
:21:51. > :21:54.countryside areas to get women to speak out when this kind of
:21:54. > :21:59.violence is perpetrated against them and also to change the mindset,
:21:59. > :22:03.but it is difficult. In your own film, there was a 22-year-old
:22:03. > :22:09.Pakistani woman who lost one eye in an acid attack and when the film
:22:09. > :22:18.was shown in Pakistan, she was very worried. She said it was
:22:18. > :22:22.disrespecting her family and they would make an issue of it. We may
:22:22. > :22:26.now be in more danger and we're scared of that. She does not want
:22:26. > :22:30.to show her face to the world. Did that worry you, that in some cases
:22:30. > :22:34.it might reveal the fact that these people think the time is not right
:22:34. > :22:44.to speak out? It is difficult, I agree. Everybody took a risk. We
:22:44. > :22:46.
:22:46. > :22:49.became very unpopular as well. Why did we show this aspect? But it is
:22:49. > :22:53.an important aspect of society. And these film-makers were very brave
:22:53. > :22:59.people and the women who came forward to tell the story were very
:22:59. > :23:03.brave. When you shake the system up, some people will be upset. They'll
:23:03. > :23:09.threaten you. And I am sure these women felt threatened. It is a very
:23:09. > :23:13.patriarchal society but something has to happen. It has to change.
:23:13. > :23:19.The one thing that I am trying to encourage is for men to come
:23:19. > :23:24.forward to denounce this activity. In Bangladesh, they brought a huge
:23:24. > :23:28.group of men, 10,000 men, denouncing violence. And now, in
:23:28. > :23:32.the last five years, they have brought it down. My final question
:23:32. > :23:39.is this. You are a renowned plastic surgeon for your reconstructive
:23:39. > :23:43.work. Do you believe that now your high profile has raised awareness
:23:43. > :23:46.of acid burn victims to the extent that we are now seeing real efforts
:23:46. > :23:52.to bring about change and action that will not only reduce but
:23:52. > :23:55.eliminate such acts of violence? Yes. And I am hoping that if we can