:00:04. > :00:14.target it at jobs. Those are the headlines. It's now
:00:14. > :00:16.
:00:16. > :00:22.HARDtalk has come to Qatar, for an exclusive interview with Khaled
:00:22. > :00:26.Meshaal, the leader of the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas.
:00:26. > :00:32.He used to be based in Damascus but broke ranks with President Assad
:00:32. > :00:36.after the oppression of the Syrian uprising. His presence here is one
:00:36. > :00:42.more sign of change in the Middle East. But what about change in the
:00:42. > :00:52.Israeli Palestinian conflict? Does have mass have anything new to
:00:52. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:12.Khaled Meshaal, welcome to HARDtalk. Four in December of last year, you
:01:12. > :01:17.visited Gaza and you said that there Hamas had scored a famous
:01:17. > :01:23.victory over Israel during that week or so of confrontation in
:01:23. > :01:28.November. But do you accept that that most recent confrontation
:01:28. > :01:36.changed nothing when it comes to the strategic balance in the
:01:36. > :01:41.region? TRANSLATION: As a matter of fact, we can't claim to have
:01:41. > :01:48.defeated Israel ought to have restored our homeland or in the way
:01:48. > :01:54.we aspire to. -- in the way. Israel started the aggression when they
:01:54. > :01:58.assassinated the market leader. It was a time when Egypt was seeking a
:01:58. > :02:01.truce. That was treachery. The Palestinian response led by Hamas
:02:01. > :02:05.and with the occupation of the other resistant faction was great
:02:05. > :02:10.and to Israel by surprise and created confusion on their part.
:02:10. > :02:14.The second point is the outcome of the war. Israel started the war. It
:02:14. > :02:17.ended only when the terms of the Resistance were met, opposite to
:02:17. > :02:23.what is rare wanted. Binyamin Netanyahu did not think about the
:02:23. > :02:29.war, he just wanted to have victory over Hamas and the resistance in
:02:29. > :02:35.Gaza. The result was it backfired. The war was ended according to the
:02:35. > :02:42.conditions of the Resistance and this is a great achievement.
:02:42. > :02:45.I do not want to waste time going over who started that particular
:02:45. > :02:50.confrontation. The his review is very different. But I am interested
:02:50. > :02:56.in the nature of the language you use when he went to Gaza afterwards.
:02:56. > :03:02.-- the Israeli view is very. You said Palestine is hours from the
:03:02. > :03:07.Jordan river to the sea. -- ours. There will be no concession of any
:03:07. > :03:12.inch of land, you said. It was the most uncompromising and hardline
:03:12. > :03:16.speech and yet it does not actually fit with the rhetoric that you and
:03:16. > :03:24.other Hamas leaders have used at different times in the last year.
:03:24. > :03:27.What is going on? TRANSLATION: In regard to the conflict of the
:03:27. > :03:31.Palestinian land, you are speaking of the established principles. What
:03:31. > :03:35.I said in Gaza was an expression of the feeling of the average
:03:35. > :03:40.Palestinian citizen. I am a representative of these great
:03:40. > :03:45.people. I was in Gaza amongst them, telling them it is our homeland. It
:03:45. > :03:50.is our right. We are the ones who have been assaulted. But hang on,
:03:50. > :03:54.if you are saying it was natural emotion, are you telling me it was
:03:54. > :03:59.nothing more than symbolism? It is not something that should be taken
:03:59. > :04:04.seriously, in terms of the politics of any future negotiation?
:04:04. > :04:11.TRANSLATION: What I have stated in Gaza is not contradictory to our
:04:11. > :04:15.made two statements. One, with the Palestinians have always been
:04:15. > :04:23.prepared to resort to any means that spares us war and bloodshed on
:04:23. > :04:27.the condition it restores our right. We have adopted any peaceful
:04:27. > :04:32.methods if they persisted as in that but we waited and they failed
:04:32. > :04:36.us. We were forced to resort to resistance. Nobody should blame us
:04:37. > :04:40.for that. Secondly, week in Hamas were and are still prepared to
:04:40. > :04:45.engage with the Palestinian and Arab agreement that works to
:04:45. > :04:50.achieve the agreement of common denominators. Hamas did not back
:04:50. > :04:56.down on this. We will talk about internal Palestinian reconciliation
:04:56. > :05:01.later but I just want to nail down what your current position is on
:05:01. > :05:07.the question of a true state -- the two-state solution, to provide a
:05:07. > :05:11.lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinian. One of Saudi
:05:11. > :05:17.newspaper the other day reported that you are now prepared to accept
:05:17. > :05:24.a permanent lasting peace based on a two-state solution. You have told
:05:24. > :05:27.this, according to the newspaper, to King Abdullah and you have asked
:05:27. > :05:35.him to be relayed this message to President Obama. Is that true?
:05:35. > :05:39.TRANSLATION: This is not true. Hamas issued a statement refuting
:05:39. > :05:43.what that newspaper has published. The two-state solution was not
:05:43. > :05:47.addressed with King Abdullah doing my recent visit to Jordan. The
:05:47. > :05:51.whole world knows that Hamas has never stated that it believes in
:05:51. > :05:56.these two-state solution. It believes in the Palestinian state.
:05:56. > :05:59.What is absent from the region is the Palestinian state. The
:05:59. > :06:05.Palestinian people are seeking their own state and do not care
:06:05. > :06:09.about their enemy. This enemy is occupying our land. I am concerned
:06:09. > :06:14.with a Palestinian state. The issue is not a two-state solution. The
:06:14. > :06:19.issue is Palestinian status. with respect, the issue is the two-
:06:20. > :06:23.state solution. Because no Palestinian opinion poll that I
:06:23. > :06:28.have seen suggest that the Palestinian people as a whole
:06:28. > :06:32.belief that you are ever going to recover what you call the
:06:32. > :06:36.Palestinian National Right to all of the land between the Jordan
:06:36. > :06:43.river and the sea. What they do seem to believe, and many support,
:06:43. > :06:49.is the notion of a Palestinian state inside the 1967 lines, that
:06:49. > :06:59.is the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. The question is simple.
:06:59. > :07:04.Can you accept a state side by side with Israel on the 67 lines? Yes or
:07:04. > :07:08.no? TRANSLATION: Yasser Arafat has accepted the two-state solution but
:07:08. > :07:14.the not achieve a Palestinian state. Hummus also agreed to the two-state
:07:14. > :07:18.solution but he did not get the Palestinian state. -- High Mass.
:07:18. > :07:22.Today, I say to the world and the American administration, the second
:07:22. > :07:26.Obama administration, that the political approach to the region
:07:26. > :07:31.must change. Do not demand the Palestinians to offer any new
:07:31. > :07:35.initiatives. We say it is our right to claim all of Palestine. But we
:07:35. > :07:41.want to achieve what is possible in the light of the Palestinian and
:07:41. > :07:46.Arab consensus over it. We accept the 1967 borders. The stake to the
:07:46. > :07:50.1967 borders and with Jerusalem as the capital and maintain the right
:07:50. > :07:53.to return. These are the demands agreed by the Arabs and
:07:53. > :07:57.Palestinians. If the Americans and the international community managed
:07:57. > :08:01.to force Israel to comply with that. Then you can discuss the
:08:01. > :08:07.establishment of a Palestinian state as much as you want. Before
:08:07. > :08:11.that, while one half of the Palestinian people are free and the
:08:11. > :08:15.other under occupation, no-one can offer the Arabs and Palestinians to
:08:15. > :08:25.offer more compromises. But you can't achieve reconciliation with
:08:25. > :08:27.
:08:27. > :08:33.Fatah and -- unless you make this basic shift on a programme like
:08:33. > :08:38.this, that you can imagine living side by side in a lasting peace
:08:38. > :08:44.with the state of Israel, thereby recognising Israel, and that you
:08:44. > :08:49.are prepared in that context to end the armed struggle. TRANSLATION:
:08:49. > :08:54.Who says the recognition of Israel is a prerequisite to Palestinian
:08:54. > :08:58.reconciliation? I as a Palestinian want to achieve reconciliation,
:08:58. > :09:02.like any other government worldwide, Britain, France, where many
:09:02. > :09:07.political parties take part, they must agree on a political agenda.
:09:07. > :09:14.But they don't have to share one political position. We do not wish
:09:14. > :09:19.to force our agenda on Fatah or theirs on hours. We used to work on
:09:19. > :09:25.shared principles. The first in 2005. And then the national record
:09:25. > :09:28.in 2006 and also 2011, the Cairo agreement, and then the Doha
:09:28. > :09:32.document as a base for reconciliation. This is our
:09:32. > :09:38.experience so nobody can dictate to us hash we -- how we should
:09:38. > :09:42.reconcile with each other. It is interesting that you point to the
:09:42. > :09:46.previous efforts to achieve a reconciliation within the
:09:46. > :09:50.Palestinian community. Frankly, you have been trying for many years and
:09:51. > :09:54.you have failed for many years. I came to this interview thinking I
:09:54. > :10:01.might hear something new from you, because there are some new elements
:10:01. > :10:04.in the situation. We have Obama in a second term, who, according to
:10:04. > :10:09.the new Secretary of State John Kerry, wants to put the priority on
:10:09. > :10:13.making Middle East peace. We have a new Israeli government. And yet you
:10:13. > :10:17.suggest that your position has not changed at all. Isn't it time for
:10:17. > :10:23.some new thinking? TRANSLATION: At the time when Yasser Arafat agreed
:10:23. > :10:29.to the recognition of Israel, based on the UN resolutions two for two
:10:29. > :10:33.and to create, it was a new stance. But Israeli policy has not changed.
:10:33. > :10:38.-- 242 and 200 they D8. The new thing that must take place for the
:10:38. > :10:41.still water to move is a change in the as really stands to American
:10:41. > :10:46.and international pressure in order to be fair to the Palestinian
:10:46. > :10:53.people. On the other hand, who wants to achieve a breakthrough in
:10:54. > :10:58.this sentiment up in the absence of Hamas? They have tried and failed.
:10:58. > :11:02.Those who tried failed. If the Obama administration is willing and
:11:02. > :11:06.we are ready to assist it, the starting point is to put pressure
:11:06. > :11:09.on the Israelis to change their stance and not by pressuring the
:11:09. > :11:15.Arabs and the Palestinians. Because they have shown all of the possible
:11:15. > :11:20.flexibility and pragmatism their ease. But many Arabs do not think
:11:20. > :11:26.you are being realistic. One respected commentator from the
:11:26. > :11:31.American Task Force on Palestine says that your position that you
:11:31. > :11:35.expressed in Gaza in December is totally unworkable from the point
:11:35. > :11:39.of view of the Palestinian national interest. Nobody in their right
:11:39. > :11:48.mind imagines that there can ever be a Palestinian military victory
:11:48. > :11:53.over Israel. Those words play into the hands of the Israeli sentiments.
:11:53. > :11:57.That is what many Palestinians think. TRANSLATION: If you had been
:11:57. > :12:03.with me during our visit to Gaza, you would have known what each and
:12:03. > :12:07.every person wants. They want their full rights in Palestine. But our
:12:07. > :12:13.people are civilised. We are conscious of the balance of power
:12:13. > :12:17.and are aware of the current Arab situation. But... But... Please,
:12:17. > :12:21.allow me. Were you not watching the television when hundreds of
:12:21. > :12:27.thousands of people in Gaza expressed their food -- their
:12:27. > :12:34.support for fatter and how would about? The man committed to making
:12:34. > :12:39.peace in Israel? TRANSLATION: This pleases me. It has a Palestinian
:12:39. > :12:44.movement launched in 1965. They declared an armed struggle for the
:12:44. > :12:49.Liberation of Palestine. But the week Arab position forced the
:12:49. > :12:52.Palestinians to deal with whatever this Arab situation allowed.
:12:52. > :12:57.Considering also the international alignment in favour of Israel. In
:12:57. > :13:01.the context of the Arab Spring, some Arab regimes have changed.
:13:01. > :13:06.Egypt has changed. Leaders today have responsibility towards
:13:06. > :13:08.Palestine, which is different from the past. If the international
:13:08. > :13:18.community and American administration and Israelis are not
:13:18. > :13:23.
:13:23. > :13:28.aware of this, they will waste One of your supporters was Bashar
:13:28. > :13:33.al-Assad. But you are no longer in Damascus. You are now I fierce
:13:33. > :13:41.critic of his repressive policies towards the Syrian uprising. That
:13:41. > :13:48.creates a problem for you. The Iranians, you key sponsors, are
:13:48. > :13:53.angry that you Brookwood Bashar al- Assad. -- broke with. What you
:13:53. > :13:58.think of the Iranian decision to support and give military advisers,
:13:58. > :14:04.weaponry, money, to a regime that you say is killing its own people?
:14:04. > :14:09.TRANSLATION: You can address this question to the Iranian leadership.
:14:09. > :14:14.I am asking you what you think. You have a light on a Iranian support
:14:14. > :14:18.for a long time. Can you picture ties to them? TRANSLATION: We
:14:18. > :14:23.disagree with them on what is going on in Syria. But we do not wish to
:14:23. > :14:28.sever relations with Iran or any other country. Despite the fact we
:14:28. > :14:32.have different opinions. The issues are clear. By saying that, I mean
:14:33. > :14:42.that the people are aware of what is right and wrong. I believe the
:14:42. > :14:49.majority of people believe that the military solution is wrong. We
:14:49. > :14:53.refuse this option. It is a crime. We side with the Syrian people.
:14:53. > :14:58.People across the globe have the right to seek freedom, liberty,
:14:58. > :15:04.reforms and democracy. It is not the right of any leader or regime
:15:04. > :15:10.or regional power to support a military option that kills people.
:15:10. > :15:17.But do you accept that you need new allies and your position in some
:15:17. > :15:25.ways his maturer than it was a year ago? How do you cope with the fact
:15:25. > :15:35.that Iran is looking, again, and wondering whether you are a loyal
:15:35. > :15:36.
:15:36. > :15:45.friend. TRANSLATION: There is no the way the Syrian regime has
:15:45. > :15:50.handled the crisis. This daughter that is taking place in Syria, we
:15:50. > :15:54.had to leave Damascus despite the fact the regime has supporters. We
:15:54. > :15:59.disagree with Iran as well regarding what is going on in Syria.
:15:59. > :16:03.This has affected our relations. But the relations are still valid.
:16:03. > :16:09.We want to maintain relations with the whole of the Arab and Muslim
:16:09. > :16:14.world. There have been changes because of the events of the Arab
:16:14. > :16:19.Spring. If we have lost some support, on the other hand we have
:16:19. > :16:25.regained additional assets and allies. Cairo is not the Cairo of
:16:25. > :16:31.the past. We can see a massive difference between the Cairo of
:16:31. > :16:35.2008, when Lebanon declared war. And the Cairo of today, when the
:16:35. > :16:45.recent aggression came to an end under an agreement sponsored by
:16:45. > :16:45.
:16:45. > :16:52.President Morsi. With respect, if I may interrupt, the Egyptians are
:16:52. > :16:57.not going to supply you with rockets as the Iranians have. You
:16:57. > :17:06.have said that your relationship with Tehran has been damaged, where
:17:07. > :17:11.are you going to get these rockets you want to go? TRANSLATION: Hamas
:17:11. > :17:15.is a community that has a lot of expertise. We do not rely on a
:17:15. > :17:24.single source. We have the capacity to manufacture and obtain arms from
:17:24. > :17:30.other sources. And we have proven to the entire world that we can
:17:30. > :17:35.stand up to Israel's superior Arsenal. I am not too worried. We
:17:36. > :17:41.welcome any support. We are defending a just cause. People have
:17:41. > :17:45.been biased towards Israeli aggression for so long. Answer the
:17:45. > :17:52.simple question. I the Iranians still supplying you with weapons?
:17:52. > :17:59.TRANSLATION: This is not a matter for us to speak about. You speak as
:17:59. > :18:04.though your strength is increasing. But look at the reality on the
:18:04. > :18:10.ground in das of. We still see the vast majority of people there are
:18:10. > :18:15.reliant on food aid. The economy is still in a terrible mess. You have
:18:15. > :18:25.had six years running the Gaza Strip. You have been able to give
:18:25. > :18:34.almost nothing in material terms to confrontation policy does not work.
:18:34. > :18:39.TRANSLATION: What about the scene in the West Bank? They believe in
:18:39. > :18:43.negotiations. They do not believe an armed resistance. They suffer
:18:43. > :18:48.from financial crisis, strikes and other problems. The problems in the
:18:48. > :18:54.West Bank are not caused by the policies. These problems are caused
:18:54. > :18:59.by the occupation. Our people are so low Vyas, highly educated. --
:18:59. > :19:07.civilised. The occupation is depriving them of creativity and
:19:07. > :19:12.productivity. Opinion polls in the West Bank show what Palestinian
:19:12. > :19:17.people want first and foremost, right now, his reconciliation and
:19:18. > :19:21.unity in the Palestinian factions. With that in mind, and you will
:19:21. > :19:28.have more negotiations with Mahmoud Abbas, are you prepared to tell me
:19:28. > :19:35.that in an interim phase toward national unity and new elections,
:19:35. > :19:38.you are prepared to recognise Mahmoud Abbas as the interim
:19:38. > :19:46.president and prime minister of the Palestinian Authority that prepares
:19:46. > :19:51.the ground for new elections? TRANSLATION: Yes. First of all, we
:19:51. > :19:55.are moving ahead in peace negotiation methods. Yesterday I
:19:55. > :20:01.telephoned mum would a bus. On Friday we have a meeting in Cairo.
:20:01. > :20:06.-- Mahmoud Abbas. There are preparations for parliamentary
:20:06. > :20:13.elections. Also elections of the Executive Council. The PLO has been
:20:13. > :20:20.revived. They are holding meetings. We are addressing the security
:20:20. > :20:28.issues. There is a social reconciliation meeting. We are
:20:28. > :20:32.moving ahead. Once we agree on days for elections and providing a
:20:32. > :20:38.guarantee for all the factions and individuals to participate freely
:20:38. > :20:43.and easily, with no restrictions whatsoever and the necessary
:20:43. > :20:51.funding. I assure you that Hamas will respect this election. No
:20:51. > :20:56.matter what happens. We believe in democracy. But we want to be
:20:56. > :21:02.respected. We do not want to be the victims of the world rejecting the
:21:02. > :21:05.democratic election results as they did in 2006. Why should I have any
:21:05. > :21:12.body else takers would seriously when Human Rights Watch reports
:21:12. > :21:20.that last year more than 100 activists were tortured or abused
:21:20. > :21:23.in a master tension inside the Gaza Strip? -- Hamas detention. The
:21:23. > :21:30.reality on the ground is that it is no sign of reconciliation
:21:30. > :21:34.whatsoever. TRANSLATION: There is no doubt that there were mistakes
:21:34. > :21:38.here and there. The greatest mistake took place in the West Bank
:21:38. > :21:43.as a result of the practices of the security services towards hundreds
:21:43. > :21:47.of detainees. These conditions that emerged under the Palestinian
:21:47. > :21:51.Division harmed the interests of the people. It damaged its national
:21:51. > :21:56.unity. We wish to close this chapter and head straight to the
:21:56. > :22:02.reconciliation. This will be water under the bridge. Our real enemy is
:22:02. > :22:07.Israel. The division created a negative atmosphere and feelings. I
:22:07. > :22:13.am adamant on negotiation. But through the programme here, I would
:22:13. > :22:19.like to address the Obama administration and ask them not to
:22:19. > :22:24.veto a reconciliation. It is our right as Palestinians. If that is
:22:24. > :22:33.not possible, we want them not to interfere. This is a Palestinian
:22:33. > :22:40.affair. Like all other nations, we have a right to decide. Let me ask
:22:40. > :22:43.you this about your vision of the future. You said that you did not
:22:43. > :22:49.want to stand again, to be nominated again, as the chief of
:22:49. > :22:54.Hamas. There is some debate about the balance of power inside your
:22:54. > :23:00.organisation between those in Gaza and those outside. Is it time for
:23:00. > :23:08.you to step aside and give up the leadership fully to the people
:23:08. > :23:12.inside cars are? -- das of. TRANSLATION: Analysis of internal
:23:12. > :23:17.affairs of Hamas has always led to exaggeration and error. There is no
:23:17. > :23:25.such thing as an internal struggle. They are competing interests, which
:23:25. > :23:31.is normal. You said that she wanted to quit. TRANSLATION: Years and I
:23:31. > :23:35.declared a year ago. People have put pressure on me to back down.
:23:35. > :23:40.There is pressure from inside Hamas. But I have not changed my mind
:23:40. > :23:46.about the stance. Hamas is a movement made up of institutions.
:23:46. > :23:53.These institutions will decide on this matter. As for me, I am still
:23:53. > :24:02.convinced of what I announced a year ago. It is a personal belief.
:24:02. > :24:07.Hamas is not a movement built around cars of. -- jars of. I was
:24:07. > :24:12.born a Palestinian. I saw the occupation and have lived through
:24:12. > :24:16.the 1967 war. From the beginning of my life, I have worked on the
:24:16. > :24:21.aspirations of my people. I'll die struggling for the sake of those