:00:14. > :00:19.stop the North's nuclear programme. HARDtalk has come to Dublin, the
:00:19. > :00:22.capital of Ireland, which currently holds the presidency of the
:00:22. > :00:28.European Union. It's a symbolic leadership role which coincides
:00:28. > :00:32.with the Irish government's attempts to escape from the
:00:32. > :00:38.economic straitjacket imposed by the EU and the IMF. -- when they
:00:38. > :00:42.agreed to bail-out the Irish economy. My guest today is
:00:42. > :00:52.Ireland's Europe minister Lucinda Creighton. Is this country ready to
:00:52. > :01:06.
:01:06. > :01:09.convince the world that it is Lucinda Creighton, welcome to
:01:09. > :01:13.HARDtalk. Starting with the enormous debt mountain that has
:01:13. > :01:20.almost crushed the Irish state. In the last few days, your government
:01:20. > :01:25.trumpeted a deal which in essence saw it remortgage a large chunk of
:01:25. > :01:31.that debt. It seems a symbol of how deep the crisis is in this country,
:01:31. > :01:35.that that is the greatest triumph of the government. I suppose we are
:01:35. > :01:39.not even midway through the government's term in office. I hope
:01:39. > :01:45.that by the end of the turn, we will have achieved more than just
:01:45. > :01:49.simply reducing the debt burden. But it is important. We have a
:01:49. > :01:54.medium-term strategy. One part of that was stabilising the public
:01:54. > :01:58.finances. That has been achieved to some extent. The next step is
:01:58. > :02:02.getting back to the market and being able to borrow money at a
:02:02. > :02:08.reasonable rate, the sustainable rate, so we can fund public
:02:08. > :02:13.services and so on and run the government. That deadline is fast
:02:13. > :02:18.approaching. Ensuring that we have management -- we are managing the
:02:18. > :02:22.debt burden is an important part of that task. Although this concerns
:02:22. > :02:26.the 30 billion euros or so that was a crude as a result of the collapse
:02:26. > :02:30.of the Irish Bank nationwide, that money still has to be paid back
:02:30. > :02:35.over the next 40 years and it also does not mean you have solved the
:02:35. > :02:40.problem of your other banking debt, the tens of billions of more euros.
:02:40. > :02:45.There is no doubt that Ireland has taken a disproportionate hit in
:02:45. > :02:52.terms of the banking crisis in Europe. We were the first country
:02:52. > :02:58.standing against what was pretty much a tsunami in the banking world,
:02:58. > :03:02.which was about to hit the European Union in particular and the
:03:02. > :03:05.eurozone. Ireland was the first country in the line of fire. We
:03:05. > :03:09.definitely took a disproportionate hit. It is interesting that even
:03:09. > :03:12.when you and other members of the government said it was a great
:03:12. > :03:17.result for Ireland over the last few days, thousands of people took
:03:17. > :03:21.to the streets in Dublin and elsewhere in the country led by the
:03:21. > :03:25.trades union movement saying that actually nothing fundamental has
:03:25. > :03:30.changed. The Irish people are still paying vast amount of money and
:03:30. > :03:34.suffering prolonged austerity because of the mistakes made and
:03:34. > :03:40.the incompetence of the leaders of the banking system in this country
:03:40. > :03:44.and politicians and Europeans who refuse to be fair to the Irish
:03:44. > :03:49.public. I think very few people would say nothing has changed. It
:03:49. > :03:59.is significant. Over the next ten years, the Irish taxpayers would
:03:59. > :04:04.each year every year in order to pay back the promissory note. That
:04:04. > :04:11.has now changed. We do not pay any of the principal sum for 25 years.
:04:11. > :04:16.The repayment period has extended from an average of 7-8 years, close
:04:16. > :04:21.to 30 years. The interest rate would be at a lower rate. It's a
:04:21. > :04:25.good deal and an important deal. It is not the only solution to our
:04:25. > :04:29.challenges. When I talk about the people who say not much has changed,
:04:29. > :04:34.they are ordinary workers, indeed many jobless people, who see the
:04:34. > :04:38.reality of their lives and say, what will actually change for me?
:04:38. > :04:43.Just looking at the fact that your next Budget will still be an
:04:43. > :04:47.austerity budget, there will be new taxes on property and water, as far
:04:47. > :04:53.as I understand you are still committed to cutting 4 billion war
:04:53. > :04:58.from the state budget by 2015. So the cuts will continue. -- more.
:04:58. > :05:05.The trade unions sake New Deal, same problem, 1.8 million people
:05:05. > :05:09.can't possibly pay off a bank debt amounting to 64 billion euros. --
:05:09. > :05:13.say a new deal. We are still in the process of working out the budget
:05:13. > :05:19.impact of this deal. That is a working process. But austerity
:05:19. > :05:24.continues? Of course. But let's be clear about this. The consolidation
:05:24. > :05:34.programme would have to continue in any event. The deficit is very
:05:34. > :05:34.
:05:34. > :05:42.large. Even at the end of 2000 world, it is still a% GDP. -- 2012.
:05:42. > :05:47.It is speaking this year at 100 and -- this year. We still have to
:05:47. > :05:52.close the gap between what we spend and what we take in. That does not
:05:52. > :05:55.change, irrespective of the banking debt. In essence, because the EU
:05:55. > :06:01.required your government to nationalise all of that private
:06:01. > :06:06.debt. But that is not the only reason. It's a part of it.
:06:06. > :06:10.Irish people look at what has happened in Greece, for example,
:06:10. > :06:13.where they renegotiated the bail- out package several times, got more
:06:13. > :06:19.money from Europe when they said they could not cope with the
:06:19. > :06:24.austerity imposed upon them. Irish people said, we have been the good
:06:24. > :06:30.guys. We have been obedient to the Gen -- German and Brussels driven
:06:30. > :06:35.programme. And because of that, we get punished the most. There are
:06:35. > :06:39.two sides to that. One is that the situation in Greece is not
:06:39. > :06:43.comparable to the situation in Ireland. We have different problems,
:06:43. > :06:49.there is a different analysis and there are different solutions. It
:06:50. > :06:55.is not fair to say that Ireland has been treated differently or less
:06:55. > :06:58.favourably to how Greece has been treated. That is not true. Secondly,
:06:58. > :07:04.we have been working incrementally since we came into office just
:07:04. > :07:08.under two years ago to reduce the burden on Irish taxpayers. That is
:07:08. > :07:15.fundamentally my government's task. Reduced to the interest rate in
:07:15. > :07:21.loans in 20th July 11. Over the course of a lifetime, that will
:07:21. > :07:26.save taxpayers about 10 billion euros. -- July 2011. The promissory
:07:26. > :07:31.note was completely unfair and unreasonable and unsustainable as
:07:31. > :07:36.an arrangement between the Irish central bank and the successor to
:07:36. > :07:41.Anglo Irish Bank and the ECB. That deal will now save the taxpayer
:07:41. > :07:46.over the next ten years about 20 billion euros. Bit by bit, we are
:07:46. > :07:50.improving the situation in terms of the debt burden on the Irish state.
:07:50. > :07:55.Meanwhile, we are concentrating on getting the Irish economy back on
:07:55. > :08:01.track. Reforming the economic sector by insuring that we make
:08:01. > :08:06.Ireland more competitive. -- ensuring. Which requires growth. We
:08:06. > :08:11.have seen six austerity budgets in four years. There are bound to be
:08:11. > :08:17.more over the coming two or three years. That has not really changed.
:08:17. > :08:22.We see unemployment at around 15%. We see young people, we will talk
:08:22. > :08:26.about this more later, leaving this country because they can't find
:08:26. > :08:32.work. I put it to you again. The trade unions are leading a popular
:08:32. > :08:37.movement which says enough. We can't take any more. The trade
:08:37. > :08:42.unions obviously have a rule which they -- a role which they have to
:08:42. > :08:45.fill in society and the Irish economy but there are other voices.
:08:45. > :08:50.Employers, small and medium-sized enterprises. It is not just the
:08:50. > :08:54.voice of trade unions we have to listen to. All elements of the
:08:54. > :08:59.economy and society. If you look at Ireland, you can compare us to
:08:59. > :09:09.other member states without naming them, but the Irish economy in 2011,
:09:09. > :09:14.there in mind we entered the programme, the IMF-EU programme at
:09:14. > :09:20.the end of 2010. In 2011, the situation in Ireland had largely
:09:20. > :09:24.stabilised and rebate -- began to attract investment again. In 2011,
:09:24. > :09:28.that was when we are attracted the highest level of the first time
:09:28. > :09:34.foreign direct investment in the history of the state. Do you
:09:34. > :09:38.believe in Ireland the out of the economic straitjacket imposed by
:09:38. > :09:44.the EU and IMF and the emergency bail-out, will you be escaped from
:09:44. > :09:48.that by the end of this year? For sure? Absolutely. One last
:09:48. > :09:54.figure which I just wonder whether it gives you pause. The trade
:09:54. > :09:59.unions claimed that every Irish person has paid 9,000 euros per
:09:59. > :10:05.capita, in terms of the bank bail- out and what it cost the Irish
:10:06. > :10:09.state and taxpayer. They think the average across the European Union
:10:09. > :10:14.is 192 euros. They argue Ireland has bought the massive brand of
:10:14. > :10:20.this. I am not sure how they calculate that. But if that is to
:10:20. > :10:23.include all debt, as if it was paid up front, that does not reflect
:10:23. > :10:33.reality because the repayment period is extended for both the
:10:33. > :10:39.loans that we have had to borrow. And indeed through the promissory
:10:39. > :10:44.notes. Stability, jobs and growth has been... That is the agenda.
:10:45. > :10:50.mantra for your presidency. How will you ensure that Europe adopts
:10:50. > :10:54.a programme that delivers stability, jobs and growth? This is the
:10:54. > :10:59.challenge. The focus is very much firstly on ensuring that the single
:10:59. > :11:03.market, which has been the success story of the European Union and the
:11:03. > :11:09.European project, the consumer market of 500 million people, that
:11:09. > :11:15.it is opened up. We want to seek it opened up so we can see smaller
:11:15. > :11:21.companies, medium-sized companies, foreign direct investors trade
:11:21. > :11:25.across borders through the sale and the exchange of services, of all
:11:25. > :11:28.forms of products. That is not the case at the moment. It is
:11:28. > :11:33.interesting to hear your language compared with that of David Cameron
:11:33. > :11:38.in London when he made that major speech the other day, announcing
:11:38. > :11:43.that if he wins the next British election, they will be an in-out a
:11:43. > :11:46.referendum on European membership for the European public by 2017.
:11:46. > :11:51.His message is that right now he thinks there is something
:11:51. > :11:55.fundamentally dysfunctional about the way the EU works and certainly
:11:55. > :11:58.he wants the renegotiation for Britain of the deal. Do you think
:11:58. > :12:05.there is something dysfunctional about the way the EU works right
:12:05. > :12:09.now? I don't. What I took from David Cameron's speech, which I
:12:09. > :12:16.thought was interesting... It was reaffirming the UK's commitment to
:12:16. > :12:21.the European Union. As long as it reforms. Exactly. But I think that
:12:21. > :12:26.we are all trying... It is difficult. We have 27 member states.
:12:26. > :12:30.Unfortunately, it is not possible to reform like that. But what we
:12:30. > :12:34.want to do and what Ireland and the UK have a common agenda in this
:12:34. > :12:38.respect, and David Cameron is the first to talk about the single
:12:38. > :12:46.market and praise the single market over the last 20 years and talk
:12:46. > :12:50.about the need to improve it... it is by far the biggest trading
:12:50. > :12:55.partner of for you. A respected commentator wrote this the other
:12:55. > :12:58.day. He said, whether our politicians like it or not,
:12:58. > :13:02.relationships with Britain are far more important their relationships
:13:02. > :13:10.with anywhere else in the world. Britain and its relationship with
:13:10. > :13:14.us is our future and our past. Do you agree? I think the UK is our
:13:14. > :13:19.most important trading partner and our bilateral relations are
:13:19. > :13:25.stronger than ever before. How big the problem would it be for Ireland
:13:25. > :13:31.if the British public, in this referendum in 2017, if they voted
:13:31. > :13:36.to leave the European Union? would be very unhelpful. And very
:13:36. > :13:42.problematic for Ireland. I hope it does not happen. I don't believe it
:13:42. > :13:46.will happen but I certainly hope it is not the case. Assuming the
:13:47. > :13:52.Britain left the single market, what would Ireland do? -- that
:13:52. > :13:56.Britain. I don't think we would follow suit. We see huge potential,
:13:56. > :14:02.as does the British government, in deepening the single market and
:14:02. > :14:09.exploiting all of the potential that exists for now and for the
:14:09. > :14:13.future. The other important point for us, a country that has strong
:14:13. > :14:17.ties with the United States and huge hopes and expectations to
:14:17. > :14:21.broaden our horizons in terms of global trade, that leaving the
:14:21. > :14:25.European Union at a time when it is about to embark on a free-trade
:14:25. > :14:35.agreement with the United States, Canada, Japan and other crucial
:14:35. > :14:41.
:14:41. > :14:47.regions of the world, we don't want But to a prime minister has been
:14:47. > :14:52.clear that you cannot cherry-pick the powers that it wants to have.
:14:52. > :15:00.It cannot dictate the terms of the club that is actually of 27, soon
:15:00. > :15:06.to be 28 members. I think that is fair. So Ireland, in essence,
:15:06. > :15:11.thinks that Britain is being profoundly selfish. No. I would not
:15:11. > :15:21.say that. I appreciate that this is a difficult debate in the UK on the
:15:21. > :15:22.
:15:22. > :15:27.subject. I appreciate that the UK government, and British citizens,
:15:27. > :15:32.want to clarify their relationship with the European Union. I want to
:15:32. > :15:36.address a few eternal issues. You have been one of the most outspoken
:15:36. > :15:41.ministers of the current government. Delivering an interesting message,
:15:41. > :15:44.that Ireland needs to modernise and change. Who say that Ireland for
:15:44. > :15:50.too long has had a dysfunctional political system. You say it would
:15:50. > :15:55.be good for Ireland to be a bit more ideological, to have a clearer
:15:55. > :16:01.dividing line between political parties based on ideology of and
:16:01. > :16:06.less on the altar networking that we have seen in the past. At a
:16:06. > :16:12.certain way. With the Cabinet that it is rather unusual that we have a
:16:12. > :16:19.government comprised the first the centre left and the centre right.
:16:19. > :16:25.So are still cronies in government? No. It is still used for that we
:16:25. > :16:33.have a large majority and stable majority in government. It impact
:16:33. > :16:38.on this. Ideological, but also modern. That is the direction you
:16:38. > :16:43.want Ireland to going. I just wonder why you have decided to take
:16:43. > :16:48.a couple of high-profile positions that would not fit easily into that
:16:48. > :16:53.notion of modernisation. The first one, on gay marriage. He said he
:16:53. > :17:00.would be up for civil partnerships. -- you said you would. But you do
:17:00. > :17:08.not want to see gay marriage in Ireland. I suppose I have been a
:17:09. > :17:14.supporter of the notion that gay people should have rights. Equality
:17:14. > :17:18.means that should they wish to do so, they could get married. In just
:17:18. > :17:23.the same way that heterosexual couples could. I suppose it is a
:17:23. > :17:27.matter of opinion. The way the constitution is interpreted by the
:17:27. > :17:32.court system, marriage is and has been and continues to be defined as
:17:32. > :17:37.marriage between a man and a woman. He or defending kiss on the basis
:17:37. > :17:41.of tradition. There is nothing wrong with tradition. Not at all. I
:17:41. > :17:47.am just trying to tease out how this fits with your idea that
:17:47. > :17:51.Ireland needs to look forward to in the 21st century. I do nothing that
:17:51. > :17:55.modernisation means that you just totally abandon tradition. I think
:17:55. > :18:00.that you can have it side by side. There are many ways we need to
:18:00. > :18:07.modernise. I do not believe that is one of them. I am speaking as
:18:08. > :18:11.someone who, unlike many of my colleagues, spoke on error
:18:11. > :18:19.legislation two years ago to introduce civil partnership. I
:18:19. > :18:26.spoke passionately on behalf of it. It is a matter of opinion. And one
:18:26. > :18:30.thing I do think will happen, by the way, is that there will be a
:18:30. > :18:36.referendum to change the definition of marriage in our constitution at
:18:36. > :18:41.some point. What will people decide? Genuinely I do not know. I
:18:41. > :18:47.think there is divided opinion. Opinions are shifting, aren't they?
:18:47. > :18:51.If one is going to be blunt about it, the role and influence of the
:18:51. > :18:59.Catholic Church's changing pretty rapidly. Absolutely. If I may make
:18:59. > :19:04.another point, you passionate defence of Ireland, -- Island's
:19:04. > :19:11.current laws about abortion, it is one of the most difficult countries
:19:11. > :19:15.when it comes to outlawing abortion. There needs to be a substantial,
:19:15. > :19:20.significant risk to the life of the mother. You want the status quo to
:19:20. > :19:24.be maintained even though there is a loud and public argument with
:19:24. > :19:30.many Irish people who want a change. Indeed, your own government is
:19:30. > :19:35.talking about legislating to be clearer and broader about the
:19:35. > :19:45.situations in which abortion can be carried out. I would take issue
:19:45. > :19:48.
:19:48. > :19:53.in this country is draconian. We have a very clear position in the
:19:53. > :20:01.constitution. What word would you choose? I would not call which
:20:01. > :20:06.draconian. In our constitution, we as a country, the Irish state,
:20:06. > :20:11.values equally the right to life of mothers and babies. That includes
:20:11. > :20:17.unborn babies. There is no distinction or hierarchy. You know
:20:17. > :20:21.better than I do that there are hundreds of women over the past
:20:21. > :20:27.three years alone who have let the Irish Republic to get abortions
:20:27. > :20:33.abroad. Many in the UK. These include 19 rape victims, 21 with
:20:33. > :20:40.severe health problems, more than 20 girls under the age of 16. Does
:20:41. > :20:47.it seem to you write that the way the system works right now, does
:20:47. > :20:52.extremely vulnerable young women all have to go abroad to get
:20:53. > :20:59.abortions? Firstly, I do not know where your information is coming
:20:59. > :21:08.from. I think, from my point of view, speaking from my personal
:21:08. > :21:15.point of view, I feel very strongly that there is virtually, very few
:21:15. > :21:20.circumstances I am aware of where treatment cannot and should not be
:21:20. > :21:25.provided for women who are vulnerable and pregnant. I do not
:21:25. > :21:32.see abortion as a treatment for vulnerable women. It depends, I
:21:32. > :21:35.suppose, on your view on life and unborn children. But I feel very
:21:35. > :21:41.strongly and support strongly our constitutional position, that there
:21:41. > :21:45.is an equal right to life of women and unborn babies. That is
:21:45. > :21:51.something that I think Irish people have held dear for many years. It
:21:51. > :21:59.is something I consider to be worth defending. A final point. A bigger
:21:59. > :22:05.issue. Continuing esteem about where Ireland is going. -- this
:22:05. > :22:11.theme. It seems a lot of young people have lost faith in the
:22:11. > :22:15.notion that Ireland can modernise, can change itself and reform its
:22:15. > :22:21.economy in a way that will give them a positive future. The
:22:21. > :22:31.emigration figures, once again, in Ireland are very tricky. We have
:22:31. > :22:32.
:22:32. > :22:38.had something between 85-87,000 people leaving this country. Why do
:22:38. > :22:43.you believe so many young Irish people are leaving? I think because
:22:43. > :22:49.we do not have the opportunities here for them. So many young Irish
:22:49. > :22:54.people, when they leave university or finish their training or leave
:22:54. > :23:00.second double school, they do not see opportunities here. -- second
:23:00. > :23:09.level. We have gone in such a short, I mean, this has been an enormous
:23:09. > :23:17.shock to the system. Since the beginning of 2008, less than five
:23:17. > :23:24.years from being a country that was growing and dynamic and had huge
:23:24. > :23:32.opportunity, and was job opportunities, opportunities for
:23:32. > :23:36.all sorts of careers and lifestyles. With the prick of a pen, it
:23:36. > :23:40.disappeared and evaporated. That is why we are working so hard to try
:23:41. > :23:45.and gradually rebuild that. I do not think anybody wants to return
:23:45. > :23:53.to the Celtic Tiger sort of economy or society that we had during the
:23:53. > :23:58.period. I genuinely feel that the steps that we have taken might have
:23:58. > :24:01.been difficult and painful, but they are beginning to show results.
:24:01. > :24:07.They are beginning to re-establish opportunities for young people.
:24:07. > :24:10.That is my task in government. That is what we are doing. We are
:24:11. > :24:17.working around the clock, all of our ministers and government, to
:24:17. > :24:21.try and turn around what was essentially a situation of freefall
:24:21. > :24:26.and cut back the foundations so that we can start to build on it